Steering squirrely at 50 mph and above

[n2oiroc]

n2oiroc, the following links should be helpful:

 

Rear sub frame (RS-14). Note the 2nd dot point at the top.

Rear sub frame (RS-15)

Rear suspension (RS-4). (For anyone who uses the torque figure for T2, IMO that figure is too high).

Rear suspension (RS-5)

Rear suspension (RS-3). Note the 3rd dot point.

 

I’ve re-scaled the drawings smaller, but you can zoom in & right click ‘save image as’. That site is sometimes very slow to load from here.

 

Perfect, thanks!

[Almatti]

I've been reading this thread. I had a 2010 Legacy, and had the larger mm rear sway bar installed. It did seem to improve the drifting. Now have a 2015 Legacy, and I don't feel the drifting on highways. Seems more solid on the road in its stock configuration than the 2010.

My point here is, why do Subaru seem to have all this drifting discussions. Do other vehicles have these problems? I know that many after market improvements can be done to enhance OEM stock car's ride and other enhancements such as increased HP, etc.

[XT-sub]

Perfect, thanks!

 

I’ve just added the front & rear suspension spec pages to that post. Ignore the Outback specs.

[XT-sub]

My point here is, why do Subaru seem to have all this drifting discussions. Do other vehicles have these problems?

 

IMO, alignment on some vehicles? The alignment inspection specs are fairly broad, wider than the adjustment specs. Maybe the type of rear suspension is critical to alignment? I’ve never experienced any issues with the pre wishbone type rear end (SG Foresters & gen3 Outback).

 

I’m not saying this is the answer, but I miss the self-levelling rear struts which kept the rear ride height the same under load (even from an empty to a full tank of fuel). See the comment by 'dpm' on the subaruforester.org topic here: “What was very surprising was watching the change in toe as the rear of the car was jacked to different ride heights”.

 

As far as other vehicles, the only non-Subarus that I’ve driven recently have been two different model Camrys we hired when on holidays, & they steered straight as a die & didn’t wander in the least.

[Beamercub]

Besides being annoyed from unrelated issues.. I had the 20mm rear sway bar installed and I LOVE IT.. It has improved the handling 200% !! I can REALLY feel the difference.. It now tracks straight on the highway with minimal corrections needed.. It is amazing the confidence that comes from doing this upgrade...!! I also got a copy of the alignment specs... I'm not thrilled with them... If you check out the specs, by looking at the before specs are you able to tell which wheel bearing has been replaced? Should I take it back and have the specs corrected? Yes, they are in the green, i just feel each set of wheels should either have neg or poz toe together, and not going in opposite directions? Let me kno...

[Beamercub]

Besides being annoyed from unrelated issues.. I had the 20mm rear sway bar installed and I LOVE IT.. It has improved the handling 200% !! I can REALLY feel the difference.. It now tracks straight on the highway with minimal corrections needed.. It is amazing the confidence that comes from doing this upgrade...!! I also got a copy of the alignment specs... I'm not thrilled with them... If you check out the specs, by looking at the before specs are you able to tell which wheel bearing has been replaced? Should I take it back and have the specs corrected? Yes, they are in the green, i just feel each set of wheels should either have neg or poz toe together, and not going in opposite directions? Let me kno...

 

Here is the alignment spec sheet.....

[apexi]

Here is the alignment spec sheet.....

 

Maybe it's just my screen resolution, but I had to zoom in quite a bit to read the numbers. I hope you don't mind if I repost it zoomed in a little?

[XT-sub]

I had the 20mm rear sway bar installed and I LOVE IT.. ... It now tracks straight on the highway with minimal corrections needed..

When did you find this out, after the wheel alignment and the larger rear bar? Or with the larger rear bar & before the wheel alignment? If the alignment was done before the rear bar, what wandering improvement did you get from the alignment (without the rear bar)?

 

Can you confirm that all the figures in the alignment are degrees or are some inches? It is hard to tell with the low res image & some specified range figures don’t agree with either.

... by looking at the before specs are you able to tell which wheel bearing has been replaced?

I’m not following you, the wheel bearing replacement won’t have any impact on the alignment figures.

[XT-sub]

Should I take it back and have the specs corrected? Yes, they are in the green, i just feel each set of wheels should either have neg or poz toe together, and not going in opposite directions? Let me kno...

 

I’m not an expert but these are my thoughts for what they are worth (happy to be corrected).

 

Assuming they are all degrees shown in your printout (no inches), I don’t think you can complain too much about the ‘as left’ results. They could have got some of the settings a bit better but it would have taken more time. It can take quite a long time to get everything spot-on. I used the below reference figures from here.

 

They changed the front toe from slight toe out to very slight toe-in (they were probably trying to get 0º toe which is the spec mid-point).

 

With your front left/right toe difference; when under way the steering will even the left/right toe difference to give 0.01º total, so does your steering wheel look central or is it slightly over one way when driving on a straight non-cambered road? Just a guess, but they may have only adjusted one tie rod instead of both.

 

It looks like they didn’t touch the front camber, but -0.1º cross camber is within the inspection spec of +/- 0.75º & the adjustment spec of +/- 0.5º (the front camber midpoint spec is -0.25º per wheel, & your left is -0.2º & right -0.3º).

 

They gave you a touch more rear toe-in & more importantly balanced closer the individual left wheel & right wheel toe. Rear toe at 0.28º is fairly close to the 0.25º mid-point, but 0.23º was pretty close before.

 

Rear cross camber isn’t perfect but that isn’t adjustable, & 0.4º is within the 0.75º spec (the rear camber mid-point spec is -1.42º per wheel).

 

Thrust angle at 0.01º is fairly good (inspection spec of 0º +/- 0.5º & adjustment spec of 0º +/- 0.33º).

 

It would be nice to know how much just the alignment changes (without the larger rear bar) improved the wandering.

[Beamercub]

I’m not an expert but these are my thoughts for what they are worth (happy to be corrected).

 

Assuming they are all degrees shown in your printout (no inches), I don’t think you can complain too much about the ‘as left’ results. They could have got some of the settings a bit better but it would have taken more time. It can take quite a long time to get everything spot-on. I used the below reference figures from here.

 

They changed the front toe from slight toe out to very slight toe-in (they were probably trying to get 0º toe which is the spec mid-point).

 

With your front left/right toe difference; when under way the steering will even the left/right toe difference to give 0.01º total, so does your steering wheel look central or is it slightly over one way when driving on a straight non-cambered road? Just a guess, but they may have only adjusted one tie rod instead of both.

 

It looks like they didn’t touch the front camber, but -0.1º cross camber is within the inspection spec of +/- 0.75º & the adjustment spec of +/- 0.5º (the front camber midpoint spec is -0.25º per wheel, & your left is -0.2º & right -0.3º).

 

They gave you a touch more rear toe-in & more importantly balanced closer the individual left wheel & right wheel toe. Rear toe at 0.28º is fairly close to the 0.25º mid-point, but 0.23º was pretty close before.

 

Rear cross camber isn’t perfect but that isn’t adjustable, & 0.4º is within the 0.75º spec (the rear camber mid-point spec is -1.42º per wheel).

 

Thrust angle at 0.01º is fairly good (inspection spec of 0º +/- 0.5º & adjustment spec of 0º +/- 0.33º).

 

It would be nice to know how much just the alignment changes (without the larger rear bar) improved the wandering.

 

 

**I just wanted to start by thanking you for taking the time to make sense out of my problem... =) As for the spec sheet... It doesn't say if it is in inches or millimeters? Also wanted to point out that all they did was an alignment check. No adjustments were made. The printed paperwork says it was printed at 8:45 a.m. No effort was made to involve me in the process, even after I had asked to be included and go over where I would have liked the specs to be. I also find it odd, if no adjustments were made, why are there 2 sets of numbers? Before and actual? How could this be? My assumptions are that the car was literally driven on the rack whithout the steering wheel being anchored and they just moved the front wheels (steering wheel) to get the Actual percentages? I can't wait to contact SOA Monday morning to relay the great job Planet Subaru is doing, after keeping my car for 5 days. The service manager was kind enough to discount the $220 charge for installing the sway bar to $110. ** I had to ask more than once to have the bar installed. And to answer your question, the sway bar was installed the day before the "alignment" was (checked) no adjustments made. The sway bar is awesome.. It really makes the rear wheel feel connnected to the pavement...

[Beamercub]

When did you find this out, after the wheel alignment and the larger rear bar? Or with the larger rear bar & before the wheel alignment? If the alignment was done before the rear bar, what wandering improvement did you get from the alignment (without the rear bar)?

 

Can you confirm that all the figures in the alignment are degrees or are some inches? It is hard to tell with the low res image & some specified range figures don’t agree with either.

 

I’m not following you, the wheel bearing replacement won’t have any impact on the alignment figures.

 

When reading the alignment spec sheet, I noticed the drivers front tire had a before toe measurement of 0.00 ! Thatr was the bearing that was replaced 2 months after I bought the car...

 

Another thought i had was.. if the bearings are prematurelty worn or loose, could it/that all by itself be causing the shifting ranges?

 

I'm really happy with how awesome the car rides with the 20mm sway bar!@

[08SpecB_DE]

Those specs are in degrees and look pretty good. The camber is at the max difference I would ever want to see when doing an alignment that is not adjustable which is .5 degrees. I'd have no problem driving that car off the rack and releasing it but I would make a note of the camber and recommend keeping an eye on rear tire wear.

[Beamercub]

I like improved handling so much.... What should be done next? Springs? I gotta have my fix ! LoL

[hkshooter]

I like improved handling so much.... What should be done next? Springs? I gotta have my fix ! LoL

 

I'm glad you have finally got some resolve with the problem and can enjoy the car.

[XT-sub]

... Also wanted to point out that all they did was an alignment check. No adjustments were made. ...

... I also find it odd, if no adjustments were made, why are there 2 sets of numbers? Before and actual? How could this be? My assumptions are that the car was literally driven on the rack whithout the steering wheel being anchored and they just moved the front wheels (steering wheel) to get the Actual percentages? ...

But that shouldn’t change the rear. I’m guessing that maybe they drove it off then back on to get the before & after figures on the one printout, if that’s possible. Maybe someone with garage wheel aligner experience can answer that. I don’t know enough about garage wheel aligners but whenever I check my wheel alignment (toe, camber & thrust angle) in my garage at home it is always 100% consistent providing the car is at the same weight. To me it looks like they made some changes. One way to prove it would be to put your original sway bar back on & see if the wandering is still there – it is a very easy job to do.

 

I’m surprised the rear sway bar made that much difference, but that is good news. It sounds like the 2015 USDM Legacys have softer suspension than the Australian spec 2106 Libertys (my 3.6R anyway).

... Another thought i had was.. if the bearings are prematurelty worn or loose' date=' could it/that all by itself be causing the shifting ranges? ...[/quote']Worn or loose wheel bearings will cause steering issues. There have been a few posts on the various forums about wheel bearing failures in SJ Foresters & current gen Outbacks. You could try jacking the car up one corner at a time & see if you can feel any play in the wheels – you will have to be fairly forceful to check it.

... I like improved handling so much.... What should be done next? Springs? ...

If I was going that far in your position I would think about getting adjustable lower control arms (rear lateral links) like ‘n2oiroc’ posted a video link to here, to get the rear camber even.

[08SpecB_DE]

I don't know much about DIY alignments but its very easy to have the specs change on let's say a Hunter machine. I think they did adjust his alignment but it's a moot point now. There's a lot of variables that can cause the aligner to not be completey accurate. I think it depends on who's doing the work.

[n2oiroc]

I complained to the service manager about the cross camber being out of spec and that i want it fixed. Its going back in tomorrow for that and a new muffler.

[08SpecB_DE]

I complained to the service manager about the cross camber being out of spec and that i want it fixed. Its going back in tomorrow for that and a new muffler.

 

So they are going to shift the subframe?

 

Edit: Make sure they don't change the tolerances to show everything being within spec. Compare the +/- to previous alignment sheets.

[Beamercub]

I complained to the service manager about the cross camber being out of spec and that i want it fixed. Its going back in tomorrow for that and a new muffler.

 

What is wrong with ur muffler?

[n2oiroc]

So they are going to shift the subframe?

 

Edit: Make sure they don't change the tolerances to show everything being within spec. Compare the +/- to previous alignment sheets.

 

ive been watching the #'s the whole time and ignoring everything else. they finally got everything where i wanted it. they did shift the subframe and got the rear camber fixed. i also had them set a little toe in on the front, i did not like it with slight toe out. i did not get up to high speed yet, ill report back when i do.

 

the red before #'s were after they shifted the subframe, thats why its all messed up. ill verify everything on another rack to make sure they didnt cheat the machine.

 

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s201/n2oiroc/7E35097F-F51D-409A-893C-1B55DB10179A_zpskm4sw9yj.jpg

[n2oiroc]

What is wrong with ur muffler?

 

it would rattle when i shut the car off and it burbled when it warmed up. i think a baffle broke loose inside.

[XT-sub]

... they finally got everything where i wanted it. they did shift the subframe and got the rear camber fixed. i also had them set a little toe in on the front, i did not like it with slight toe out. ...

 

That looks much better. If the figures are correct, they nailed the rear toe right at the midpoint of the spec – it will be interesting how it goes at that. That's what I want to aim for when I get around to it.

 

By moving the sub-frame you may now find the wheel base is slightly different left vs right, but if everything else is pretty good I can’t see that causing a problem (or maybe it was different before & it is now equal).

 

A good idea to verify on another aligner.

[08SpecB_DE]

You can't get much better than that. I think you will be extremely happy with how it drives.

[n2oiroc]

Drove in a crosswind at 85 today and im really happy with this alignment. There is no fighting to keep it in the lane. A little toe out had better steering response, but it got blown around by the wind. .04" total toe tront and .12" total toe rear is a good spec to aim for.

[XT-sub]

Drove in a crosswind at 85 today and im really happy with this alignment. There is no fighting to keep it in the lane. A little toe out had better steering response, but it got blown around by the wind. .04" total toe tront and .06" total toe rear is a good spec to aim for.

 

Good stuff. But I’m intrigued why you say 0.06” total rear toe is a good spec to aim for when your 0.12” total rear toe works so well. Mine has always had 0.057" total rear toe (calculated from 0.12º), with the front toe adjusted to 0º, & it wanders slightly.

 

I wasn’t happy with the wandering with the slight front toe-in mine had originally (I didn’t measure what it was but it didn’t appear to be much). Perhaps I should have tried a touch more toe-in, but the front tyres where showing signs of wear at low kms.