Steering squirrely at 50 mph and above

[ninjadogg]

I'm really thinking that dealers can't replicate the problem, or "fix" the problem because it's due to the road surface you drive on, as I mentioned earlier.

 

Time is money for dealers, but see if you can take a tech or a service advisor for a drive on the road where the problem occurs. If you can't do that, I would find somewhere near the dealership where you can check for yourself, and see that the problem occurs, and let them see/test for themself. If they experience the problem firsthand, and it's as serious as it sounds, I think they're much more likely to bend over backwards trying to help you out.

 

 

I agree with apexi... just like any other support situation, you can't diagnose what's not obvious or not can't you can't recreate, if everything else seems correct/normal.

 

I was another forum where a guy's car wouldn't start. He got many many suggestions and now it's unclear what the current status is, what's been done or what's changed, hah! So many variables! Point is, if the service tech/mgr does what you do where you drive, that could help eliminate some of the unknown variables.

 

This is a baffling thread to me, but I'd like to hear what happens. I'm going to see how my Legacy tracks on my drive home tonight if I can find some straight spots. Less than 500 miles on it, so it should handle like every other one from the factory....

 

Oh and not to beat on the whole RSB discussion.... but isn't the point of upgrading the RSB for cases of active turning of the vehicle? I'm confused on how this affects (what should be effectively) straight driving.

(And yes, I'm too lazy to look on the other threads, so if someone has a synopsis, that'd be great.... for me... lol! )

 

 

 

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[ninjadogg]

Here's a link to a brief video I made to demonstrate how quickly the car steers away from straight-ahead. Kind of hard to get a real sense of the loss of tracking, but I made this in case a dealer's mechanic can't recreate the issue during a test drive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tomellis37/27660600140/in/dateposted-public/

 

Hey @Bones37... have you driven that same stretch in a different car? I know it's already been asked, but maybe your roads are bad? It *sorta* looked to me like in your video, that truck you were following was doing a very similar slow left or right motion... Or am I seeing things??? Now I can't wait to drive my car to see if I have the same issue.....aagh!

[hkshooter]

You obvious don't understand how recalls work from the perspective of the car manufacture.

 

You obviously don't understand the point of my post.

 

But that's ok, I'll let Quadrangle's post suffice as a well thought out reply. I guarantee you'll like his post way more than you would have liked my own.

I'm keeping up with this thread to see what is actually found and fixed. Good luck with your car.

[legacysteering]

You have to understand a few basic things to comprehend what it is I am posting. First, the dealership has acknowledged the problem, but at this time is unclear how to proceed with a fix. So there is in fact no "perceived issue". The purpose of me posting is to make others aware of a problem, and perhaps get others take on it. Just because its not a "common problem" doesn't mean there isnt an issue.

 

You are right that people rant on the internet for a host of different reasons, but myself and others are clearly explaining some issues with the steering. You mention that Bones37 and I have different issues, but that is a large leep without knowing the facts. Just because I didn't explicitly state my hands were on/off wheel, I was picking my nose at the time, that was I accelerating/braking, doesn't mean we arent having a similar issues that may stem from the same underlying problem. So you being "skeptical" really doesn't mean much because you don't have all the facts and yet you are trying to make a definitive conclusion.

 

Its ok that you cant grasp this issue, and instantly judgmental. This post is not for you but for others that are having similar issues with the Legacy, and would like to information from others.

[quadrangle]

Yeah, yeah. Everyone has a horrible comprehension problem.

 

Please note that you are not the only person who is suggesting they have some sort of issue related to steering. Just because an issue of yours has been acknowledged by a tech does not mean that everybody's has. So yes, others might be having "perceived" issues only.

 

Also, please note that even if you see two cars with similar (or even identical) symptoms, it does not mean they have the same underlying problem.

 

But you have me confused. First you say that people are "clearly explaining some issues", then you tell me I'm taking a "large leep [sic] without knowing the facts". Well, if people haven't provided the facts, then they certainly haven't explained things clearly! Certainly not clearly enough for someone else to even begin to guess that they might possibly be having the same symptoms, let alone the same underlying issue.

 

But the reality is that you both DID give plenty of facts. More than enough to tell that you were talking about entirely different things.

 

For example, you said, "On the Legacy I have to constantly adjust steering wheel by inches to LEFT/RIGHT to fight to keep car center." Are you saying you do this constant adjustment WITHOUT your hands on the wheel? It seems pretty clear to me that you do your in-car nose-picking just like everyone else. When you're stopped at a light.

 

But that's beside the point! The difference between you and Bones is that YOU claim to be constantly steering (using your hands or other body parts) when trying to go straight. HE says he lets go of the wheel for 5 seconds OR MORE, waits till the car is about to leave the lane, and then cranks the wheel.

 

See the difference? You're steering non-stop. He lets the car steer itself. Apples and oranges. That's not being "judgmental". I'm just observing what you guys told me!

 

By the way, you are correct that "just because it's not a common problem doesn't mean there isn't an issue". And of course I never implied otherwise.

 

But the REALLY important thing is that if other people are having an issue where the key symptom is that car travels in a direction inconsistent with steering wheel input, then they should NOT merely be comparing notes about it on the web! They need to take their potential death trap to the dealer. Maybe have it towed there.

[legacysteering]

No just you (not everyone) have a comprehension issue as you still don't understand the facts which I am mentioning. I really can't understand why you don't get that what I am explaining is similar to what Bones is describing but I didn't state it in the same words. It's like I am telling you that 1+1=2 and Bones is saying 3-1=2; and your saying that isn't the same thing event though the final number is 2.

 

Sometimes you must extrapolate,however, you aren't clearly understanding what I am saying and you are using your own interpretation and twisting words. In fact, your main argument is over how Bones and I are having different issues yet we are ultimately explaining the same exact thing. It's ok that you don't "get it" and you must argue over something you clearly don't get just for the sake of arguing. But the bottom line is your comments aren't helpful or constructive. Also trying using the search function on this forum to see others with "similiar" issues to know that this isn't just an isolated issue. Also the outback forums also having people commenting on the legacy steering which you could review for your reading enjoyment.

 

So to be clear Bones and I are having the same problem but describing it differently. I hope that is clear enough for you although you will probably just argue again with your own twisted logic that we are having different issues.

 

 

[quadrangle]

Hey, man. Whatever. I shouldn't have bothered after you told hkshooter that he "obviously" didn't understand recalls.

 

Good luck with your impenetrable certainty.

[08SpecB_DE]

Hey Bones, I just saw you are in PA. I would love to drive your car so I can feel what you are talking about if you are not far from DE. I'm wondering if it's just the roads you travel on. I know when they cut up roads they will tend to have grooves that grip your tire and jerk it one way or another.

 

If you can bring it to northern DE we can hop on route 1 and see what happens. I would really like to see you get this issue fixed and if there is any way I can help, I'm more than willing. I want to hook my scan tool up to your car and monitor your steering angle as well. PM me if your interested and we can set something up.

[Bones37]

That "suggestion" is simply not true for the OE wheels and tires. If it were the case, then all 2015-up Legacys with the same wheel/tire combination would exhibit the same behavior. They do not.

 

You can consult sources like TireRack.com to find the ideal "reference rim width" (a.k.a. "measured rim width") specified by the tire manufacturer for any given tire, as well as the allowable range of rim widths for proper fitment.

 

I appreciate the logic that if the problem is the difference between the rim and the tread, then ALL cars with those tires would have the same problem. Thx. for providing some focus on this aspect.

[Bones37]

No just you (not everyone) have a comprehension issue as you still don't understand the facts which I am mentioning. I really can't understand why you don't get that what I am explaining is similar to what Bones is describing but I didn't state it in the same words. It's like I am telling you that 1+1=2 and Bones is saying 3-1=2; and your saying that isn't the same thing event though the final number is 2.

 

Sometimes you must extrapolate,however, you aren't clearly understanding what I am saying and you are using your own interpretation and twisting words. In fact, your main argument is over how Bones and I are having different issues yet we are ultimately explaining the same exact thing. It's ok that you don't "get it" and you must argue over something you clearly don't get just for the sake of arguing. But the bottom line is your comments aren't helpful or constructive. Also trying using the search function on this forum to see others with "similiar" issues to know that this isn't just an isolated issue. Also the outback forums also having people commenting on the legacy steering which you could review for your reading enjoyment.

 

So to be clear Bones and I are having the same problem but describing it differently. I hope that is clear enough for you although you will probably just argue again with your own twisted logic that we are having different issues.

 

 

 

legacysteering and I have the same problem. It doesn't matter to me if people believe differently. The tenor of this thread has become a little emotional. I started this line to see if anyone else has the same problem, and if anyone has found a solution. Many have provided insights and suggestions, and I appreciate those contributions. A problem my dealer would have in replicating the problem is that he'd need to drive to a highway where the driver could cruise, at speed, on straightaways. That would take a lot of time, and we all know time is money. That is why I made the video, which admittedly isn't a great demonstration of my problem. The reason I took my hands off the wheel was to demonstrate how the car will quickly dive to the left or right. I never let the car leave the lane, so the video doesn't truly reflect the squirrelyness. I don't expect to drive down a highway with my hands off the wheel.

 

I'm 64 YO, and have never driven a car that just doesn't want to cruise straight down a highway. I understand about rutting, uneven road surfaces, electronic steering, etc. I am continuing to observe my car's behavior (a Turnpike roadtrip is planned for Sat.) and monitor this thread for ideas and suggestions. I am hopeful that we will eventually discover what the issue is so it can be fixed and I can then be fully in love with this car.

[ninjadogg]

Oh and not to beat on the whole RSB discussion.... but isn't the point of upgrading the RSB for cases of active turning of the vehicle? I'm confused on how this affects (what should be effectively) straight driving.

(And yes, I'm too lazy to look on the other threads, so if someone has a synopsis, that'd be great.... for me... lol! )

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Anyone care to weigh in on how a Rear Sway Bar upgrade could possibly "fix" this problem, as potentially stated by others, or other forum posts, etc...?

 

Bones37, I just wanna save ya $100 bucks if that's the only thing you wanted to get out of it. If you wanted potentially better handling in turns, that's a different story.

 

I look forward to hearing how things go on your longer trip this weekend, with and without LKAS, and on different roads. I tried paying attention on my drive home last night, and thought I had the same thing.... but then later, didn't.... (i didn't have much straight highway to check on) so VERY inconclusive on my part.

[legacysteering]

Ninjadogg; I specifically installed the 19 mm RSB based upon multiple opinions of it helping on this and other forums. I was really optimistic but it did in fact make no appreciable difference in my wandering.

 

If you happen to get a nice stretch of straight road please report back to us on your findings.

[sbx22]

I just want to make it known that first, I had the problem, then I came onto the internet to look for forums. That was the only reason I even am a member of this forum, to see if others have experienced what I am. Apparently, there are a number of us.

 

legacysteering, I ordered the 20mm sway bar last week. It's upsetting to me to see that it did not make a difference in your situation. I don't have too much hope for mine now. I will probably install it, see if it makes a difference in my car, then if it doesn't work I will probably proceed to trade it in as I had planned to keep this car for a LONG time and I won't be able to tolerate the wandering car.

[Bones37]

OK, folks: PA Turnpike trip was taken yesterday. Road surfaces were actually pretty bad (bumpy seams across the road every 3 seconds), so it's hard to criticize the car's steering. I did employ LKA, and tested its limits. It didn't always get the car going back into the lane, but most times it did. I found LKA uncertain what to do going thru curves. Perhaps when I'm in my late 70s are beyond and struggle keeping the car in my lane, I'll use LKA, but for now, it's a little unnerving to have this feature helping me steer the car thru curves.

 

There were some straight stretches where the road surface was pretty good. I am still getting the sensation that the steering has a mind of its own (I characterize this with the word squirrelliness). It's either like the steering mechanism (whatever that is in this car) is a little loose, or like a little gremlin is tweaking the steering. The sensation is almost like steering a small boat thru rough waters, with unexpected wandering occurring.

 

BTW, I set my tire pressures to 33F/32R before this trip, as recommended by Subaru.

 

In summary, I still have this steering issue, can't explain it, and am hopeful that at some future time Subaru figures out what the problem is and how to fix it. If I did a lot of highway driving, I'd get another car, but I don't do enough of that to warrant the expense. One thing I have learned here is I would never buy another car without taking it out on a highway. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.

 

BTW, I LOVE the ACC. I was cruising at 70 mph with the max following distance, when the car I was pacing suddenly slowed very quickly, almost coming to a stop in the slow lane before pulling off the road. The ACC brought my car to a complete stop, just short of the car in front, which was still on the highway. I didn't hit the brake during that time, as I trusted the feature and wanted to see just how thorough the braking would be. Luckily for me, the driver behind me was alert and didn't rear end me. Great feature. (Wifey crapped herself, as she did during the LKA tests... :-)

[Yoda_One]

I did a test drive on the same roads with Power rack and pinion steering in the Jeep and Electronic Steering in the Legacy and Forester. I can wiggle the steering wheel left and right and the Jeep would track straight while BOTH Subarus with the same wiggling left and right tracked in the direction of the movement. I still believe you are really not familiar with how sensitive Electronic steering is to just a slight movement and it tracks immediately in the direction the steering wheel is moved. It is point and shoot steering and once you are accustomed to it, lt is a pleasure to drive with lot less fatigue.

[RobbieGT]

I LOVE my electronically assisted power steering. It's so fluid and responsive. I've taken a turn from a stop with my pinky which really shocked me. And cutting in and out of traffic is easy too. I actually tried cutting into a lane quickly in my girlfriend's corolla, and the hydraulic steering couldn't keep up.

[legacysteering]

I did a test drive on the same roads with Power rack and pinion steering in the Jeep and Electronic Steering in the Legacy and Forester. I can wiggle the steering wheel left and right and the Jeep would track straight while BOTH Subarus with the same wiggling left and right tracked in the direction of the movement. I still believe you are really not familiar with how sensitive Electronic steering is to just a slight movement and it tracks immediately in the direction the steering wheel is moved. It is point and shoot steering and once you are accustomed to it, lt is a pleasure to drive with lot less fatigue.

 

 

The problem Rowlette is on our cars that wander there is no straight forward "point and shoot"

[hkshooter]

The problem Rowlette is on our cars that wander there is no straight forward "point and shoot"

 

So, if you steer the car down the center of your lane and then hold the wheel rock solid with no correction or movement, your cars will still wander around the lane and steer off the road? Do I understand correctly?

[08SpecB_DE]

So, if you steer the car down the center of your lane and then hold the wheel rock solid with no correction or movement, your cars will still wander around the lane and steer off the road? Do I understand correctly?

 

I was wondering the same thing. If it's only when they take their hands off the wheel, then we should be compensated for lost time in our lives trying to figure this out

[apexi]

Based off what I've experienced with my car and certain snow tires, and a couple other cars (4runner and uhaul box truck with brand new tires), here's my guess.

 

If you hold the wheel rock solid and try to go as straight as possible, the car will try to wander (tramline actually) a little bit, you have to fight to keep the car going straight, and it might steer mildly to the left or the right, but nothing crazy as long as you hold a firm grip.

 

If you have a loose grip on the steering wheel, or if you don't hold the steering wheel, then things could get real nasty and the car could almost drive off the road.

 

Rowlette posted this link earlier or in another thread, but here's what I'm referring to. Tramlining to the T in my opinion.

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=40189615&postcount=5

 

What do you mean by "wandering"? The term is ambiguous.

 

There are two feels I'm familiar with on the freeway, floating and tramlining.

 

Floating is where the wheel feels disconnected from the road. The car likes to wander all over the place (generally slowly) and you don't have much control over where it's going. This is caused by worn/soft bushings and/or low grip tires with a big sidewall. The car starts floating one direction, and it takes more wheel movement than should be necessary to bring it back in line. Ever watch an old sitcom where somebody's driving and they're moving the wheel 30 deg back and forth while still going straight? That would be a car that's susceptible to wandering.

 

Tramlining is where the wheel still feels connected to the road, but the car drives as if the tires are steering you (in Soviet Russia!! ehm...). The tires are pushing the wheel all over the place and it's up to you to fight against it to keep the car going straight. This can be an alignment issue, or it could simply be normal. Some tires like to tramline, and some roads are filled with ruts that make the feeling 10x worse. There could be a problem, or it could simply be a combination of worn roads and grippy tires. My STi tramlines like a mother****er on certain roads (36 between Broomfield and Boulder) because of the deep ruts in the road.

 

[sbx22]

For me, the steering wheel will be dead straight and the car will veer either direction, essentially randomly. I don't know how else to describe it. This is my first car with electronic steering and if this is what electronic steering is, well then, it sucks.

[legacysteering]

So, if you steer the car down the center of your lane and then hold the wheel rock solid with no correction or movement, your cars will still wander around the lane and steer off the road? Do I understand correctly?

 

hkshooter; exactly correct. It is very noticeable with hands holding tight on the wheel at dead center. Car will drift left or right. This occurs in all lanes down the highway, and doesn't have to do with road crown.

[quadrangle]

For me, the steering wheel will be dead straight and the car will veer either direction, essentially randomly. I don't know how else to describe it. This is my first car with electronic steering and if this is what electronic steering is, well then, it sucks.

 

It's probably worth noting that most people don't call it "electronic steering". It's generally called electric power-assisted steering (EPS or EPAS).

 

The driver steers through a mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and the front wheels, in our case, through rack-and-pinion steering. The EPAS assists by adding force to supplement the force applied by the driver's arm muscles.

 

EPAS, in that sense, is no different from conventional power steering. However, the AMOUNT of assistance in any given circumstance can be (and probably is) different between EPAS and conventional. With EPAS, the amount of assistance is tightly controlled by software.

 

Thus, EPAS is likely to have a different "feel" from conventional. In fact, Subaru CHANGED the feel of the EPAS going from the 2015 to the 2016 Legacy.

 

EPAS does NOT pro-actively steer. If the steering wheel is centered, the EPAS will not decide to suddenly veer the car to the left or right.

 

All the above, is only true, of course, presuming your car is not broken. If your car is broken in some sense, then all bets are off.

 

(I'm using the word "broken" very loosely. "Broken" could mean anything, including things simply being out of adjustment.)

 

Anyone who is driving a Legacy that randomly veers left or right when holding the wheel centered and when not encountering uneven road surfaces or cross-winds has a broken car. (Such a car needs repair. If the Subaru techs acknowledge that the car misbehaves, they need to fix it. If they don't know how to fix it, they need to start replacing parts, up to and including giving you a new car.)

 

The thing that "sucks" about your car is that it is broken, and you should wait until you are driving a properly functioning car before starting to judge whether you think EPAS sucks or not.

[YeuEmMaiMai]

most common cause of wandering is loose ball joints...

[08SpecB_DE]

Subaru is likely waiting for deaths related to the wandering before taking action. Absolutely disgusting. You would think a company that can have "55 consecutive months of month-over-month growth" would be prompt in dealing with a potential life-threatening event such as the wandering some of us are experiencing.

 

Where do you live? If you are close to DE I would gladly look at it for you. Why not try taking it to another dealer or an independent shop? Call SOA about it. There's so much you could do besides rant on the Internet.

 

It can't be that big of a deal if Bones decided not to go through with me looking at the car. I'm beginning to speculate that this thread has turned into nothing but wasted time and people who are not familiar with new technology.