GrimmSpeed 05-09 LGT Intake - Any Interest?

[utc_pyro]

How much is a flir camera? Does go pro 5 do thermal yet?

 

The FLIR One I have was around $150. They make a stand alone version of it with a wider temperature range for the $200-$300 range. Better quality ones (higher resolution and temp range) go up to the mid teen-K's.

 

Seek also makes a phone based one that goes on sale more often.

 

For car stuff the FLIR One is a bit limited. I'd be curious to see what the temp of my turbo or headed were after a run, but they are above the max reeding. It's useful for debugging electronics, insulation, and equipment room cooling though.

[WRX USA]

The FLIR One is an interesting tool but I've had to replace mine twice, luckily both were under warranty.

[GrimmSpeed]

"Idle intake air temperatures" seems to be a "hot topic" whenever a new aftermarket intake comes out. Don't pardon that pun either, it was terrible. But I always like being part of the discussion.

 

First thing's first, it seems the general consensus from literally everyone is that when cruising, AKA when the car is moving, the IATs are about 5-10 degrees above ambient. This is a good thing, because in real life there is where most of the action happens. We all know that IATs start to get high when sitting in traffic, or stopped with the engine on for prolonged periods of time. However, in traffic "performance" isn't really an issue, especially when you are having a hard time even getting to 15mph. But an elevated intake temperature in situations where you are making small fractions of your total power output are not causing any negative consequences. Your intercooler (TMIC or FMIC) is also very hot during these situations, but we know that it cools down fairly quick once you start moving.

 

I'm more interested in the claim about the intake temperatures not cooling back down for 5 minutes. I'd be interested to see a log of that. In one of our logs on a 90 degree F day, we saw the IATs climb to 121F after a minute of idling at a stop light. And in 12 seconds (still at under 35mph) of movement the intake air temperatures were back down to 7 above ambient. And this is on a car that had been driving for well over an hour, so it was completely up to temp.

 

I'm always interested to see everyone's data, and I think the most important bit that has been posted over and over again is that when the car is moving, the IAT is only a few degrees above ambient. And even more pleased to see that you've found the loss in restriction too At the end of the day if we're forced to compromise on a design, we always optimize for the performance benefits (decrease in restriction, near ambient temps at speed).

 

Chase

Engineering

[covertrussian]

Chase I think your missing the point, the stop light racers are not happy that they are loosing horsepower until the intake cools down.

 

A valid concern is from us autocrossers, I sit idling for 20min at a time before I race, after that it's about 60-70 seconds of racing. Heat soak might be great enough that it wont dissipate until the round is pretty much over.

[GrimmSpeed]

Chase I think your missing the point, the stop light racers are not happy that they are loosing horsepower until the intake cools down.

 

A valid concern is from us autocrossers, I sit idling for 20min at a time before I race, after that it's about 60-70 seconds of racing. Heat soak might be great enough that it wont dissipate until the round is pretty much over.

 

Now that is something that I'm aware of and have discussed as well. Same thing with drag racing. It makes sense. However, the solution there is pretty easy if you find that that becomes a problem: You want a barrier between the frame rail and the opening to the lower fender. The main reason you're seeing such an increase when stopped is because the exhaust manifold, as well as the radiator are locally heating the air in that area. That gap is the area of least resistance, and that heated air becomes your main source of intake air. The other thing that is happening is that the intake pipe itself is heating up, and since is it directly connected to the MAF, it also gains some heat as well. No airflow anywhere means things are going to get pretty hot, which I'm sure we can all easily understand. This is why when the car is moving the intake air is barely heated at all, because the volume of air moving through the engine bay is substantial, as opposed to nearly zero.

 

This is also why I offered the analogy of the FMIC or TMIC, which also gets very hot when you're not moving, or idling a hot car for long periods of time. This piece should be a much larger concern, but typically people just accept the fact that no airflow = no cooling.

 

So, eliminating the major source of heat by sealing that gap is a great solution for autoxers and drag racers alike. And if you're willing to go all the way to make a good modification great, it's a pretty simple task. It's not going to magically make your intake air ambient, because even a stock intake car that isn't moving will not see ambient in this situation, but it'll get you close.

 

Chase

Engineering

[Max Capacity]

Just a thought here, is it possible to mount a fan in that area for those that concerned ? If your serious enough to be worried about the heat, then a racer will come up with a fix.

 

Or may be one of the great Vendors here could sell a kit to help cool that area. How great would it be if that kit had a motion sensor...?

[covertrussian]

I think a lot of the complaints are coming from the stock intake not getting as hot and not taking as long to cool back down after idling. It makes sense on why, it's getting air only from the front of the car (though the milk jug in the fender area would be heating up some air too).

 

What people are forgetting is that while the stock setup is excellent at keeping the air cool, it mediocre at best at airflow. I tested this by making a WAI from the stock MAF housing, my quick and dirty intake made over 10whp (virtual dyno) as long as I kept my IAT's at bay (which was very hard). So what you loose in initially high IAT's you gain back and more after you start moving.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Engine/Intake/WAI%20v1/WAIv1_010.jpg~original

 

Now the engineer part of me wants to make a better flowing intake but without sacrificing the colder air setup. When I get more time (and money) I plan on working on that goal more.

[GrimmSpeed]

Just a thought here, is it possible to mount a fan in that area for those that concerned ? If your serious enough to be worried about the heat, then a racer will come up with a fix.

 

Or may be one of the great Vendors here could sell a kit to help cool that area. How great would it be if that kit had a motion sensor...?

 

Sure, idle hands and minds can usually make anything happen. However, I still believe it would be much more effective to simply block off the source of hot induction air, rather than attempt to move it.

 

AND if you were super serious, you'd block off the aforementioned area, and remove or modify the foglight housing to encourage an additional source of "path of least resistance" air.

 

There are always going to be a lot of different ways to skin this cat. The bottom line will always be what lengths you're willing to go through to optimize things. And more importantly: how do you identify when a "problem" is actually a problem. For example, both our independent tester and Tuning Alliance made additional boost and power on the dyno, despite having substantially higher intake temperatures than you'd see on the street. The main advantage to the intake is the decrease in restriction, ease of tuning and accuracy in airflow readings. Beyond that we've done everything we can to maintain low IATs, and keep the price point reasonable and competitive. And as far as I am aware there is not a single intake that does it better.

 

I think a lot of the complaints are coming from the stock intake not getting as hot and not taking as long to cool back down after idling. It makes sense on why, it's getting air only from the front of the car (though the milk jug in the fender area would be heating up some air too).

 

What people are forgetting is that while the stock setup is excellent at keeping the air cool, it mediocre at best at airflow. I tested this by making a WAI from the stock MAF housing, my quick and dirty intake made over 10whp (virtual dyno) as long as I kept my IAT's at bay (which was very hard). So what you loose in initially high IAT's you gain back and more after you start moving.

 

Now the engineer part of me wants to make a better flowing intake but without sacrificing the colder air setup. When I get more time (and money) I plan on working on that goal more.

 

This is exactly right. Stock intake has, on average, cooler initial IATs. But regardless of this, it is more restrictive and produces less power. This has been shown even when the IAT temperatures have been kept artificially high during dyno testing.

 

I think you'll find with cost and time being no object, you'll very easily be able to add the snorkel back to your intake design. Just create a sealed box around it, and then make yourself a custom snorkel. Either by way of hacking up the stock one, and adapting it, or fabricating an entirely new one. But, it'll all be based on how truly important those initial lowered IATs are

 

Chase

Engineering

[covertrussian]

The main advantage to the intake is the decrease in restriction, ease of tuning and accuracy in airflow readings. Beyond that we've done everything we can to maintain low IATs, and keep the price point reasonable and competitive. And as far as I am aware there is not a single intake that does it better.

 

You got that right, your intake is the only intake that I recommend to people. All other intakes seem to get much hotter and stay hotter even while moving.

 

 

This is exactly right. Stock intake has, on average, cooler initial IATs. But regardless of this, it is more restrictive and produces less power. This has been shown even when the IAT temperatures have been kept artificially high during dyno testing.

 

I think you'll find with cost and time being no object, you'll very easily be able to add the snorkel back to your intake design. Just create a sealed box around it, and then make yourself a custom snorkel. Either by way of hacking up the stock one, and adapting it, or fabricating an entirely new one. But, it'll all be based on how truly important those initial lowered IATs are

 

Chase

Engineering

 

I'm thinking about crafting a plastic box indeed. But one concern becomes volume of air (WAI and CAI have a lot more space), but the next concern is the max airflow of the factory snorkel. What if the snorkel it self is the limitation for the stock airbox.

 

One of the main issues with initial high IAT's is knock control as IAT's increase the ECU starts pulling timing and it can be pretty aggressive. So not only are you loosing some horse power from higher heat (though negligible at 1hp per 10F), your loosing a ton more HP from timing being retarded 2-5* easily, that much timing retard can cost you 20whp easily.

[GrimmSpeed]

You got that right, your intake is the only intake that I recommend to people. All other intakes seem to get much hotter and stay hotter even while moving.

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking about crafting a plastic box indeed. But one concern becomes volume of air (WAI and CAI have a lot more space), but the next concern is the max airflow of the factory snorkel. What if the snorkel it self is the limitation for the stock airbox.

 

One of the main issues with initial high IAT's is knock control as IAT's increase the ECU starts pulling timing and it can be pretty aggressive. So not only are you loosing some horse power from higher heat (though negligible at 1hp per 10F), your loosing a ton more HP from timing being retarded 2-5* easily, that much timing retard can cost you 20whp easily.

 

Yeah IIRC something like 2 degrees gets pulled around 100, always up to about 6 degrees around 170ish. But if you were seeing sustained timing retard from IAT comp that would be one thing, as opposed to what it does (assuming it isn't over 100 degrees F outside) shortly after you start moving that would be another. BUT, if that were the case and there was a concern I would certainly try the two modifications I previously outlined.

 

Thank you very much for the kind words and the recommendations

 

Chase

Engineering

[fahr_side]

FWIW the under tray on the 3rd gen WRX / STi comes right up to the frame rail and clips to that, sealing it well. This is done to improve intercooler performance but the side-effect is to keep heat out of the fender area. On my car IAT will go pretty high if left idling but it takes a long time to heat soak it. The only time I've had an issue with this was on the dyno where we only had two fans, one each for intercooler and radiator, and nothing to move air through the fender. On a 70*F day we were hitting IATs around 130*F and of course that cost a lot of power. Never had an issue like that on the road. I'd say time and effort spent isolating the fender from engine bay air will be well rewarded. Chase, just design a damn kit already!

[GrimmSpeed]

FWIW the under tray on the 3rd gen WRX / STi comes right up to the frame rail and clips to that, sealing it well. This is done to improve intercooler performance but the side-effect is to keep heat out of the fender area. On my car IAT will go pretty high if left idling but it takes a long time to heat soak it. The only time I've had an issue with this was on the dyno where we only had two fans, one each for intercooler and radiator, and nothing to move air through the fender. On a 70*F day we were hitting IATs around 130*F and of course that cost a lot of power. Never had an issue like that on the road. I'd say time and effort spent isolating the fender from engine bay air will be well rewarded. Chase, just design a damn kit already!

 

Yep! And they do that to an even greater extent on the newer WRX as well. However, on our GR development vehicle we got rid of the undertray years ago so we were using an identical set up to the LGT.

 

Trust me, nothing would make me happier than to design that isolation kit! But the development program we have going on right now already has me going home at night and trying to clone myself. Right now my best offer would be a large piece of cardboard, cut roughly to the correct width, and two bags of ice. Plop one in the fenderwell, and one on top of the box/tube.

 

Chase

Engineering

[Hoojammyflip]

This is a fascinating thread... thanks Chase - and everybody else for all the input...

 

My job is running engines on dynos - bt not the design side. I find all this real world testing really interesting...

 

I run a JDM 2.0GT Spec,B in currently at about 330 flywheel horse power with an STi8 short engine. I love the early power of the TD04HLA19t twin scroll turbo but am always interested in a 'relatively easy mod' for a touch more power on tap.

 

Chase can you let me know how much it would be to ship one of your LGT air intakes to the UK? - and how to go about getting it arranged...

 

Thanks

 

Mick

[derp]

sales@grimmspeed.com

[GrimmSpeed]

This is a fascinating thread... thanks Chase - and everybody else for all the input...

 

My job is running engines on dynos - bt not the design side. I find all this real world testing really interesting...

 

I run a JDM 2.0GT Spec,B in currently at about 330 flywheel horse power with an STi8 short engine. I love the early power of the TD04HLA19t twin scroll turbo but am always interested in a 'relatively easy mod' for a touch more power on tap.

 

Chase can you let me know how much it would be to ship one of your LGT air intakes to the UK? - and how to go about getting it arranged...

 

Thanks

 

Mick

 

sales@grimmspeed.com

 

Thanks Mick, we definitely appreciate that. And as Derp mentioned it's probably easiest to email sales@grimmspeed.com. I believe we recently confirmed fitment on a JDM Legacy, so it should fit your car no problem.

 

So shoot them an email, and they should be able to get you all set

 

Chase

Engineering

[eldrego]

Just getting around to installing this after buying it last year because I'm getting my stage 3 tune done. I was worried if it would fit with the Racer X FMIC piping and yea it doesn't fit [emoji24] .

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Code]

Mine fit fine with a RacerX FMIC.

[GrimmSpeed]

Yeah I thought there were more than a few people who got it to fit with their Racer X FMIC. Did you try to install it, or were you just reading posts?

 

Chase

Engineering

[eldrego]

Yea, I tried to install, not enough space for the heatshield

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[quick4dr]

I have no clearance issues with grimmspeed CAI and RacersX FMIC, your alignment of your charge pipe is off if they are hitting each other.

[eldrego]

I guess so

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Mike87]

i am thinking about switching out my aem cold air intake with the grimmspeed cold air intake, do i need to retune?

thanks

[covertrussian]

i am thinking about switching out my aem cold air intake with the grimmspeed cold air intake, do i need to retune?

thanks

 

Short Answer is Yes.

 

Long answer is, they are two different systems with different designs, which effects how the ECU interprets the MAF readings. It's a bit unknown with how the grimmspeed intake will react to the AEM tune, in worst case scenario it will lean out your motor and detonate itself to death.

[Mike87]

Thanks

[GrimmSpeed]

Short Answer is Yes.

 

Long answer is, they are two different systems with different designs, which effects how the ECU interprets the MAF readings. It's a bit unknown with how the grimmspeed intake will react to the AEM tune, in worst case scenario it will lean out your motor and detonate itself to death.

 

Thanks

 

Long answer is "yes" as well.

 

The AEM intake uses a smaller diameter MAF housing, as they often do, which in stock form is a kind of way to get around making it a "tune required" intake. The smaller housing will make it so the calculated airflow is greater than the actual airflow, which will cause you to run rich.

 

Now if you've e-tuned or pro-tuned for the AEM, it will have likely corrected that to an extent so it's not running as rich, equivalently leaning it out.

 

So now if you were to install your GrimmSpeed intake which will run lean on stock tune, it will now run extra lean. Do not do this, you will eventually have a bad day

 

But if you're running a Cobb accessport OTS tune for the intake the result can go one of two ways. If you have the actual AEM tune (that disappeared some time ago) that was made only for the AEM intake and not the Cobb SF intake as well, our intake will run lean. However, if you have the OTS tune for the Cobb SF intake/AEM intake it'll run very very rich, which is also bad.

 

So the long answer is "yes" you must retune.

 

But I guess the short answer was "yes" too, but I figured you wanted to know exactly why.

 

Also @CovertRussian: great post in the turbo section regarding drop in filters running lean, this is the exact same trend and data we've seen in our own testing. Not only in turbo cars, but on on N/A vehicles as well for the same reasons. More proof that the MAF curve is not only dictated by the MAF housing alone, which is an unfortunate common misconception. I didn't want to booger up your thread though.

 

Chase

Engineering