Time for a new short block

[gto7419]

Those letters are absolutely for piston size. FYI, I am not putting too much thought into it. You MUST measure those clearances. There are many threads on nasioc complaining of out of spec bearings from trusted companies.

 

Buy a dial bore gauge and do it right. Buy some pastigauge and at least get some idea that you won't grenade that thing the first time you start it....

 

I've built a whole bunch of these motors. Getting lucky on a build without measuring anything is not the norm.

[Merc6]

Those letters are absolutely for piston size. FYI, I am not putting too much thought into it. You MUST measure those clearances. There are many threads on nasioc complaining of out of spec bearings from trusted companies.

 

Buy a dial bore gauge and do it right. Buy some pastigauge and at least get some idea that you won't grenade that thing the first time you start it....

 

I've built a whole bunch of these motors. Getting lucky on a build without measuring anything is not the norm.

 

Took that guess work out and went #YNANSB route. I didn't sleep good but that was 1 less thing to contribute to it. I most likely won't assemble it either.

[gto7419]

What does ynansb mean?

[doobaruGT]

What does ynansb mean?

 

 

You Need A New Shortblock

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gto7419]

^^that makes a lot of sense now

[1-3-2-4]

Had to move the car today to a new spot so I'd have less of a hassle when pulling the motor.. intresting the car ran and idled OK but after the rod knock came back it died.. it was a pain to back up in the spot with no much power since on a slight incline.

 

I did do a video I will post a little later..

 

Also where can I get replacement bolts for the DP to turbo? I'm missing at least 3 bolts I think which is why you see a lot of that smoke.

[Max Capacity]

I like to use OEM for those because of the high heat there. I also use OEM bolts to bolt the turbo to the up pipe.

 

Use anti-seize on the threads too.

[1-3-2-4]

Do the bolts have a part number?

[Max Capacity]

Yes. But the guy at the parts counter will know that. That's his job, spend your time doing something else.

 

My parts guy gave me a hand full of those bolts when I asked. He gave me a few of the longer one's too.

 

I use the same bolts that bolt the up pipe support bracket to the block to bolt the turbo to up pipe, I think they are the same as the dp to turbo.

[1-3-2-4]

My parts guy knows me pretty well by voice, as he last said I'm by far the best customer since I have all the part numbers ready it gets harder to find smaller things like bolts..

 

I would check opposed forces but the site does not play well with a mobile connection.

[Max Capacity]

Just checked the site, bolt 11 has no part number. I sure they are 10mmx1.25x 1" long whatever 1" is in mm.

 

http://opposedforces.com/parts/legacy/us_b13/type_5/exhaust_system/exhaust/illustration_1/

 

Bracket bolt

http://opposedforces.com/parts/legacy/us_b13/type_5/intake_and_supply_system_turbocharger/air_duct/illustration_1/

[1-3-2-4]

Ej257 rod knock:

[Merc6]

Ej257 rod knock:

 

 

I know that feel bro, there is light at the other end.

 

[benena]

After watching this, engine r&r isn't nearly as challenging as I imagined. Thanks for posting that.

 

I'm attempting myself to discover whether I should go this route before my current block checks out. I'm at 182k and I like to be proactive. Not to mention I have a whole summer available to do so since I'm an educator. I'm balancing the cost with recoup on selling my existing SB and perhaps selling the existing internals from a new block and going forged on a 257.

 

Sorry to highjack, I'm growing more interested...

 

The BOLD sentence! DAMN, whole summer!

[doobaruGT]

The BOLD sentence! DAMN, whole summer!

 

 

It's my first without taking classes. Doesn't mean I won't be prepping, just means if I want to do a swap I can :-)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1-3-2-4]

I will be glad to just get it out because I'm tried of driving this gas hog '95 ford Taurus lol it's a V6 3L and it's slower then my 4 Cly 2.5 L it's a night and day difference from take off and trying to pass traffic at highway speeds

[Merc6]

I will be glad to just get it out because I'm tried of driving this gas hog '95 ford Taurus lol it's a V6 3L and it's slower then my 4 Cly 2.5 L it's a night and day difference from take off and trying to pass traffic at highway speeds

 

When I came to the realization the car wasn't gonna get fixed in a timely manor, A economic replacement was got. You have to remember 90's V6 were like sub 150 HP unless you got the random supercharged ones. My 1st temp replacement before the Cruze was a Buick Century. It literally took a Century to go fast but low end grunt in city was nice. 29 mpg highway tho...

[birkhoff]

And if I'm using a new crank and all new bearings I really don't have to worry about the clearance if you torque to spec.

 

What I need to know is that master gasket set does it include those 3 gaskets between the case half of the block?

 

As others have said, 'yes' to the question.

 

Regarding the first sentence, I'm not so sure. The factory built SB uses different 'grades' of bearings down the main line, meaning slightly different shell thickness for different journals. I believe those are recorded as the numbers on the top of the block (numbers, not letters; letters are for the piston grades) And that is with a new pair of line bored case halves.

 

If you start with a new crank and an old set of case halves, you may find that some of the base bores will be pounded out pretty good. So, the base bores will not start out round, nor will they be uniform in diameter down the line. The latter can be handled by buying two sets of main bearings, one STD and one 0.025 mm oversize. You have to fiddle around with different shell sizes in different bores, and may need to set up some shells as split STD/oversize to hit clearances. As an example, I believe Cosworth bearings are available in three grades, #0, 1, 2 for this reason. To a lesser degree, you can run into the same thing with rod bearings. A fair starting assumption is to figure on buying two sets of main/rod bearings, or the cost of machine shop time for a line bore and rod resizing so you can use all one shell size, assuming a new crankshaft.

 

Since you are shooting for clearances within a couple of tenths (of one thousands of an inch) of target. the fitting of main bearings involves a number of trial assemblies at least, and I'm not sure how you would approach those tolerances with plasigage alone. A machinist would use a dial bore gage.

 

When builders say 'set the mains to 1 and rods to 1.5 they mean +- a couple tenths. If you set up your used block and find some main clearances at 0.0008 and others at 0.0015 (which is likely) this is not really in the spirit of the advice, nor is it within factory specs.

 

You are definitely right about torque. It makes a huge difference to the bore size. In my recent build, approaching target, I forgot to do the last 90 deg on the main case bolts during one trial assembly and suddenly everything was way off. Like 4x the target oil clearance! Took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on.

 

Probably there are some folks who have just bought a new crank, STD bearings, bolted 'er up, and drove away. But with clearances like we are shooting for, this is possibly more by luck than design.

[Max Capacity]

Good post right there ^

 

brikoff, looks like you'll be a good asset here.

[1-3-2-4]

That seems like a lot of wasted money buying two sets of bearings so almost $500 in bearings? I hope they are gold

 

having said that of all the bad stuff I have been hearing about ACL I'm thinking of doing King or Cosworth bearings, however I don't know where you can order king bearings from?

 

About the dial bore gauge if I'm thinking right I would torque the block to spec without the crank but the main bearings in and measure? That seems like the only way I can see.. i think I'm going to order the standard size king bearings first

[1-3-2-4]

When I came to the realization the car wasn't gonna get fixed in a timely manor, A economic replacement was got. You have to remember 90's V6 were like sub 150 HP unless you got the random supercharged ones. My 1st temp replacement before the Cruze was a Buick Century. It literally took a Century to go fast but low end grunt in city was nice. 29 mpg highway tho...

 

 

lol I heard the SHO with the Yamaha engine is pretty nice but I never seen any of them

[birkhoff]

That seems like a lot of wasted money buying two sets of bearings so almost $500 in bearings? I hope they are gold

 

having said that of all the bad stuff I have been hearing about ACL I'm thinking of doing King or Cosworth bearings, however I don't know where you can order king bearings from?

 

About the dial bore gauge if I'm thinking right I would torque the block to spec without the crank but the main bearings in and measure? That seems like the only way I can see.. i think I'm going to order the standard size king bearings first

 

Exactly. Expect the unexpected. But we have one secret weapon compared to professionals: time. Not like, "lots of spare time," which none of us have, but waiting one week for parts is no big deal in the overall game. . . usually.

 

That said, your plan sounds good. Clean the case halves really well and torque them up with a set of standard bearings. Measure the holes with a decent bore gage (a whole 'nother story, but let's assume this is a small detail) and then calculate your clearances against the new crank. With some luck, you are within acceptable on all journals. If not, do some calculations and figure out which holes would benefit most from closing up by 0.0005 which is what you will get with one half of a 1 thou oversize shell. Once you figure this out, put all the thicker shells on one side, bolt her up, and redo the measurements to confirm your clearances. I you need to close up by a full thou, then all the better; use two thicker shells. But I doubt it with a new crank.

 

Unless you had a main bearing failure, you can even do the first step with your old bearings -- they don't actually lose much thickness in these low mileage applications. If you are dubious about this, mike the old shells and compare to new specs; get out your calculator. Remember, the original bearings were not STD size to start with, but a mix of graded shells.

 

Plastigage has its place, especially for us amateurs. Your assembly, reassembly, remeasuring, repeat n-times is going to take a few sessions over multiple days, if not weeks, and it is easy to screw up at some point. When you are ready to do the final assembly, plastigage the package you are going with. It should show in the right ballpark. If you come up with 2 thou on a hole you thought was 12 tenths, then you need to figure out what went wrong. If everything is within a couple tenths by plastigage (keep in mind you are working way below the minimum clearance for even the green plastigage, so you have to estimate) then you have done well.

 

King bearings are all fine and good, but around here, they don't show any oversize shells (other than repair size). You should be able to source them from any machine shop. ACL, is more expensive, but they have oversize and undersize shells that are kind of handy for this, and pretty easy to get online. Co$$worth have three size grades around STD, which is basically what your SB was assembled with. But you are right, if you end up with three set of mains to do the assembly, not to mention the rods, you are rapidly approaching the cost of a new SB. I think the best philosophy here is to be wary of the worst, but don't assume it; measure first, then order what you need from whoever can supply. Bearings is bearings, sort of.

[1-3-2-4]

The piston size is listed under the intake manifold right?

[birkhoff]

The piston size is listed under the intake manifold right?

Yep.

 

Both piston grades (sizes) and main bearing grades are stamped on the top of the block. Pistons are letters, A or B. The B piston is slightly smaller; about four tenths smaller than the A pistons. The stamp pattern shows which grade piston went into each hole.

 

The 5 numbers in a line are the main journal size codes. The are in order, from #1 to #5 (for your 5 main journals). My block, for example showed 22222. I have seen 2's and 3's stamped and presumably, 3 is bigger than 2, so a slightly thinner bearing shell would have been fitted at the factory.

 

I've never seen a satisfactory explanation of how to translate the journal codes, and it is not in the FSM. If someone knows and could enlighten us, that would be interesting.

 

Since you are putting in a new crank, the main journal codes are no longer relevant. I reused my crank, but still they weren't relevant since the wear was not uniform on all journals. My cylinder bores were in good shape and I could verify the mix of A and B pistons matched the slight differences in bore diameter. After a light hone, I replace with the same grade as original in each hole.

[Merc6]

lol I heard the SHO with the Yamaha engine is pretty nice but I never seen any of them

 

Not sure, think they had some issues but I don't know anyone with one who didn't run em hard. Last guy I knew when I was in the barracks as an E-3, he was running nitrous with his. He had a button on the floor for wot spray and the bottle was mounted behind his seat on the floorboard.