First snow, VERY disappointed

[BAC5.2]

He wasn't asking about the RE92...

[ShadowImg]

The car has 4 falken ziex ZE912 225/45/R17 right now with a lot of tread left. This is an "all season" tire however the lack of sipes makes me question whether it's any good or not. The continental DWS looks so much better to the eye for snow use.

 

Guess I'm just a bit disappointed I may be in it for a set of tires on a car I just bought. Perhaps I misunderstood or was unintentionally misled by some of the people I spoke with. Regardless, I would probably try a better set of all seasons on the car before I give up and buy a dedicated snow setup.

 

Not familiar with that specific tire, but as long as it has good tread (>8/32nds) and is meant for snow/has M+S markings, I'd say drive it responsibly and you will likely be fine. That was kind of our entire point about the RE92s. If you drive like you have an ass instead of a head, you're going to have issues.

[Riptide]

You guys are right. TBH I haven't given the tires enough of a chance to really have a firm judgment yet.

 

We'll see how things go when we get some real snow accumulation and I get a chance to give it a real test.

[BAC5.2]

Not familiar with that specific tire, but as long as it has good tread (>8/32nds) and is meant for snow/has M+S markings, I'd say drive it responsibly and you will likely be fine. That was kind of our entire point about the RE92s. If you drive like you have an ass instead of a head, you're going to have issues.

 

Bingo.

[BigTDogg MA]

I was told AWD with a good set of all seasons should outperform the same tire on a FWD/RWD setup. Some of the posts in this thread make me wonder about that.

 

Given the same weight distribution of the car and handling characteristics, I'd agree with that.

[ssbtech]

I bought the car with the intention of avoiding having different sets of wheels/tires. I was told AWD with a good set of all seasons should outperform the same tire on a FWD/RWD setup. Some of the posts in this thread make me wonder about that.

 

I'm not sure who told you that...

 

AWD does virtually nothing for braking (except where engine braking is being used). AWD does very little for steering unless you get really good at using the throttle to help maintain directional stability.

 

All season tires like the RE92 are not designed to cut into snow/slush. Their tread pattern and shoulder design is more conducive to riding up and over snow/slush rather than cutting into it and evacuating it from the contact patch effectively.

 

 

The real fun comes when you turn the steering wheel and the tire's gently rounded shoulder simply rises up and over the snow rather than bite in.

 

It's really fun when you're trying to steer around some other putz who also left his all-seasons on and can't stop in time for the intersection, and instead of turning with the wheels your car simply slides straight.

 

The people who are comfortable driving with the RE92s clearly haven't had any emergency situations arise. If you can plan your every move several seconds ahead where you can allow for the additional distances the tires require to stop and turn, then perhaps the RE92 might fit the bill but if you have to react to something on shorter notice, then the RE92s DO NOT allow any headroom for emergency maneuvers.

 

Driving down a snow covered road keeping up with the flow of traffic means you're pretty much driving at the limits of the tires. Sure you can anticipate the stale green light ahead turning red and can adjust your speed accordingly in advance, but there's absolutely no way in hell you're going to react to a car skidding through a stop light 50 feet in front of you. And even if you can somehow pull it off, the piss poor lateral stability will ensure that you'll end up in an understeer oversteer oscillation and probably crash into someone else.

[BAC5.2]

He still isn't talking about running the RE92...

 

And even if he was, I had no issue with good-tread RE92's in several snow storms.

[ShadowImg]

All season tires like the RE92 are not designed to cut into snow/slush. Their tread pattern and shoulder design is more conducive to riding up and over snow/slush rather than cutting into it and evacuating it from the contact patch effectively.

False. I already showed you the tread patterns in a post above. Go take a look at them. The microsiping is the main difference between the tread pattern of say the RE92 and the LM25, and it does nothing for evacuation of snow/slush. In fact, it's generally meant to do the opposite.

 

The real fun comes when you turn the steering wheel and the tire's gently rounded shoulder simply rises up and over the snow rather than bite in.

 

It's really fun when you're trying to steer around some other putz who also left his all-seasons on and can't stop in time for the intersection, and instead of turning with the wheels your car simply slides straight.

 

The people who are comfortable driving with the RE92s clearly haven't had any emergency situations arise. If you can plan your every move several seconds ahead where you can allow for the additional distances the tires require to stop and turn, then perhaps the RE92 might fit the bill but if you have to react to something on shorter notice, then the RE92s DO NOT allow any headroom for emergency maneuvers.

 

Driving down a snow covered road keeping up with the flow of traffic means you're pretty much driving at the limits of the tires. Sure you can anticipate the stale green light ahead turning red and can adjust your speed accordingly in advance, but there's absolutely no way in hell you're going to react to a car skidding through a stop light 50 feet in front of you. And even if you can somehow pull it off, the piss poor lateral stability will ensure that you'll end up in an understeer oversteer oscillation and probably crash into someone else.

 

I think the world would be a better place if you stayed off the road entirely. If you are driving on the road at the limits of the tires, you're doing it wrong, and you're a terrible, unsafe driver. I really don't understand what you're saying here at all, other than "I don't know how to drive". Understeer/oversteer oscillation? That's a driver fuckup, not the fault of the tires. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you just keep opening your mouth and proving you should not be behind the wheel of a vehicle.

 

May I suggest you attend the TireRack/SCCA Street Survival Course? It might help you out more than tires.

[ssbtech]

False. I already showed you the tread patterns in a post above. Go take a look at them. The microsiping is the main difference between the tread pattern of say the RE92 and the LM25, and it does nothing for evacuation of snow/slush. In fact, it's generally meant to do the opposite.

 

 

You can hardly make a comparison between the two tires. There are virtually no similarities at all between the two tires. The densly packed tread blocks on the RE92 do not allow for effective evacuation of water and slush. The spacing between tread blocks of the LM25 is much greater than the RE92.

 

The LM25 design is significantly more aggressive for cutting into snow.

 

Also, the LM25 was replaced with the LM60, which includes sharply angled shoulder tread blocks to improve lateral stability and steering response.

 

 

 

 

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/bridgestone/bs_potenza_re92_ci1_l.jpghttp://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/bridgestone/bs_blizzak_lm25_ci1_l.jpg

[LongHiway]

I drove two Boston winters on the stock RE92's and they were fine. Great? No. Terrible? No. Like several other OP's have noted, I found with around 35 K miles, "bad" weather performance began to sux - first noticed it hyroplaning in rain.

 

Are their better tires - we all agree to that. Worth dropping $600 + to replace? It depends.

 

To the original poster, since we all seem to agree Subaru's are good in the snow, unless you were really pushing it (which you sad you weren't), seem like you've got enough mileage to make replacements worth your $.

[ssbtech]

And even if he was, I had no issue with good-tread RE92's in several snow storms.

 

How would you describe the type of snow that you drove in with the RE92?

[hmmrdwn]

I drove two Boston winters on the stock RE92's and they were fine. Great? No. Terrible? No. Like several other OP's have noted, I found with around 35 K miles, "bad" weather performance began to sux - first noticed it hyroplaning in rain.

 

Are their better tires - we all agree to that. Worth dropping $600 + to replace? It depends.

 

To the original poster, since we all seem to agree Subaru's are good in the snow, unless you were really pushing it (which you sad you weren't), seem like you've got enough mileage to make replacements worth your $.

 

Exactly. I put on 35K a year in extremely snowy states. In the past, I drove a front wheel drive car with either the oem all seasons or highly rated all seasons and never got stuck or in an accident. I don't exactly drive slow either, but watch the conditions.

 

It will be interesting to check out the oem potenzas. Based on what I've heard, I'm already looking at either going to a better all season or winter tire.

 

Some of the people at work have Hondas and Toyotas with the same potenzas on and they make it through. It's questionable if some of them would notice a difference in tires though.

[BAC5.2]

A variety. Considering I drove on several different sets the winters of 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, and 09 (iirc). I got a nail in one in November of 2010, so last winter was on my Pilot Sports (as this winter will be as well). From 04 up, the cars all had modified suspension, including my OBXT from January 09 and on. In 07/08 I had my lifted Forester on General Grabber AT2's (a great all-terrain tire for the Forester).

 

They saw everything from powder to slush and everything in between, including trips skiing nearly every day of the season in 02 and 03.

 

Why do you ask?

[ssbtech]

I ask because the type of snow can affect traction. The snow we get here is very wet, heavy and slippery. It isn't that nice fluffy powder stuff.

 

I still find it nearly impossible to believe that you never lost traction once.

[hmmrdwn]

I ask because the type of snow can affect traction. The snow we get here is very wet, heavy and slippery. It isn't that nice fluffy powder stuff.

 

I still find it nearly impossible to believe that you never lost traction once.

 

The heavy thick greasy snow even builds up in winter tires.

[BAC5.2]

I lost traction lots of times on purpose (having fun). That's how I found the limits of the tire, so I'd know how not to exceed them when it would count. In all the years I drove on RE92's, in everything from a FWD Legacy to a 400hp AWD Legacy with a dogbox (that was only one winter, the rest were various power levels and a mix of FWD and RWD. I don't think the car was ever RWD for snow though), to my OBXT, I never had any "stuck" moments, nor did I ever lose control at 5mph or get stuck in "over/understeer oscillations".

 

I'll restate, again, that I'm not saying the RE92 is the best tire in the world. I'm saying it's undeserving of its reputation. It is a good tire.

[ssbtech]

Ok, so you're doing 20mph in the snow. You know that 40 meters ahead you need to make a right turn, so you start to slow down to make the turn at 3mph (because that's all the tires can handle before sliding sideways). You make the turn safely and continue on your way.

 

You're safe because you know how far it takes to slow down to a safe enough speed to make the turn. But wait! 15 meters ahead there's a car coming out of a driveway with the wheels locked and can't stop before entering your lane. There's a car in the lane to your left so you can't make a lane change. The fantastic RE92s can't move enough snow out of the way, and you can't stop in time. You hit the car. OR, there is no car in the lane next to you, but because you don't have enough time to slow down, your attempt to turn into the next lane fails because the tires don't have enough lateral grip in the snow.

 

It's one thing to say you can deal with anticipated maneuvers, but when something unexpected happens you're overdriving the tires and can't avoid the obstacle.

[ShadowImg]

Except that's a retarded example, because I can just change the 15 meters ahead to 5 meters ahead, and now your fancy ice & snow tires make no difference.

 

There are situations which are unavoidable, and you can create one for *any* condition, vehicle, tire, driver, you name it. The RE92 is fine in rational situations, including every one I have ever driven in. The situations you have described that you lost control in were not unavoidable situations. There's a difference between a person moving in front of you in an unsafe manner and you almost hitting a cement barrier. The barrier did not back out in front of you.

 

You can never avoid every situation. That's why there are traffic laws to enforce specific behaviors of drivers. Someone backing out of a driveway into your lane of traffic without making sure the way is clear, ESPECIALLY in poor conditions is not the fault of your tires, it's THEIR fault.

 

The situation you described is no different in perfectly dry, well lit, summer conditions with normal tires. 15 meters is NOT a reasonable reaction or stopping distance for a vehicle.

[ssbtech]

Except that's a retarded example, because I can just change the 15 meters ahead to 5 meters ahead, and now your fancy ice & snow tires make no difference.

 

No, it's not a retarded example. The difference between the 15 and 5 meter scenarios is that in the former, proper tires could make a difference.

 

There's a difference between a person moving in front of you in an unsafe manner and you almost hitting a cement barrier. The barrier did not back out in front of you.

 

No, the cement barrier didn't back out in front of me, but in my case I wasn't doing anything else abnormal, either.

 

You can never avoid every situation. That's why there are traffic laws to enforce specific behaviors of drivers. Someone backing out of a driveway into your lane of traffic without making sure the way is clear, ESPECIALLY in poor conditions is not the fault of your tires, it's THEIR fault.

 

I don't give a shit whose fault it is, I don't want to be in a crash. I can either choose to equip my vehicle with the right equipment for the conditions to give myself every opportunity possible to avoid unexpected hazards, or I can be cheap and leave the crappy all-seasons on and hope nobody else causes a problem.

 

And I didn't say "backing out..." I said "unable to stop".

[ssbtech]

And I love the suggestion that people buy a new set of all-season tires every 20,000 miles.

 

If you just ponied up for proper winter tires you wouldn't be buying new tires every 20,000 miles

[ssbtech]

They are indeed audible at the limit, and you get some vibration feedback from them too before they break away, and I also find they break away clean.

 

Perhaps in the dry, but in the wet or in the snow I found that they let go without any warning, and once gone they weren't very easy to bring back under control.

[ShadowImg]

"there's a car coming out of a driveway with the wheels locked and can't stop before entering your lane"

 

Do people often floor it coming out of a driveway where you live? Your example is absurd, and is only designed to somehow make your argument plausible. It's not reasonable to expect to be able to stop in 15 meters while driving down the road. Most people can't *react* in that distance.

 

Your argument is no different than if I say you're driving down the highway in perfectly clear, sunny conditions at 65mph. A deer runs out in front of you 100 feet away. If you had Alcon 6 pots, racing pads, and R-compound tires, you could stop in time, assuming you react in sufficient time. However, it doesn't mean everyone should go driving around all the time with that setup.

 

It's a loaded situation, created specifically to prove your point, and isn't real. I don't want to be in an accident either, but I'll admit there are conditions where it is not within your power to avoid it.

 

I'll flip your argument. It's winter, it's unusually warm, the ground is dry. You are driving normal speed due to conditions. Someone pulls out of the driveway 15 meters in front of you. Due to you being on deep snow & ice tires, your dry braking abilities suffer, and you can't stop in time.

 

You can create a fictional situation for anything -- it proves nothing.

 

And I love the suggestion that people buy a new set of all-season tires every 20,000 miles.

 

If you just ponied up for proper winter tires you wouldn't be buying new tires every 20,000 miles

 

Proper winter tires are softer and have less usable lifespan than most A/S tires. They don't last longer, they wear out faster.

 

 

Perhaps in the dry, but in the wet or in the snow I found that they let go without any warning, and once gone they weren't very easy to bring back under control.

 

This is true of any tire in a significantly "low adhesion" surface condition. That's why you drive completely differently and with more initial caution in these situations. You often will not feel the breakaway point coming up, and you definitely won't hear it. My F1 Asymmetrics and Pilot Super Sports are definitely not audible at the limit/breakaway point in rain until it's too late. I've had some fun times spinning out on the track from pushing it too hard.

 

I have never once had this problem on the street, because I drive carefully.

[BAC5.2]

People like ssbtech are one reason I like the RE92. Their scape goating means I could get near new tires for next to nothing. I got two complete sets of <5k RE92's for less than the cost of one or two Nokians. I ran takeoff RE070's in the summer, and RE92's in the winter.

[ssbtech]

People like ssbtech are one reason I like the RE92. Their scape goating means I could get near new tires for next to nothing. I got two complete sets of <5k RE92's for less than the cost of one or two Nokians. I ran takeoff RE070's in the summer, and RE92's in the winter.

 

It's one of the reasons that you'll end up crashing, too. Don't come crying here when your insurance company denies you coverage because you weren't running suitable tires.

[hmmrdwn]

Perhaps in the dry, but in the wet or in the snow I found that they let go without any warning, and once gone they weren't very easy to bring back under control.

 

Some winter tires handle wet road conditions worse than all seasons. There might be accidents that the additional stopping distance may prevent. Those accidents are a very small portion though. Most of the time it's operator error. Heck, if you wanted to blame equipment, you could blame lack of tire pressure (28 instead of 36), diminishing tread depth, failing to rotate your tires (lack of tread in front), driving the wrong type of car (should have been a BMW X5), wrong aspect ratio of tire (didn't downsize), etc.

 

On the other hand, it's could be the drivers fault for not taking a defensive drivers course, looking at their speedometer, cell phone, adjusting the mirror, putting on their make up, being too old to drive (slowed reaction time), etc. In fact, you put snows on an awd car and some people drive faster and susceptible to get in more accidents because of over confidence.

 

The added stopping distance from winter tires helps, but isn't the "end all" that would prevent all accidents from happening.