First snow, VERY disappointed

[Riptide]

BAC thank you for the info. I only put about 5-6000 a year on the car so the snow ratings would probably last me a while.

[hadvw]

I got great use out of my Michelin Pilot Alpins on my Corrado. NOT the regular Alpins - those were below satisfactory in the snow on my GTI. Not cheap, but went through a final winter (I knew I was moving, selling the car, etc) near the wear bars with surprisingly good snow traction for their condition, etc. And, H speed rated (210 km/h or 130 mph). I.e. - they'll be useable as snow tires more or less throughout their tread life.

 

They were a notch (or two?) below high performance summer tires in terms of handling in the dry (such as Comp T/A ZRs or Kumho UHP summer tires) when going all out - no question. On the other hand, I got over 30K miles on a set, including a lot of freeway driving at higher speeds, winter nav rallies, etc. Always felt in control with 'em. I'm sure you could pump 'em up a bit more in the summer to get a bit stiffer sidewall.

 

Not sure if they still make the exact same model - IIRC, at the time there was only one Pilot Alpin model. Now it seems like there are 3 or 4 models of Pilot Alpin and/or Primacy Alpin.

 

Since I almost never see snow here in NorCal, I now run Pilot AS+ (we do get a fair amount of rain over the winter season). Of the 3 tires I've run on the GT: Re92s, Eagle F1 DS-G3 (the ones with the weird tread) and these, I'd rank them as (favorite to least favorite):

Pilot AS+

DS-G3 (wore out too fast for the price, handling was good while they lasted)

Re92

 

The best part about the Re92s, IMHO, was they weren't that noisy. The Pilots and DS-G3 (or whatever) do get somewhat noisy. I've heard the DWS aren't as noisy.

 

While my LGT was being repaired recently, I had an Altima rental with ContiExtremeContacts, and I must say - impressive dry/wet grip and quiet. May have to try those at some point, but I just got another MPAS+ set over Memorial Day, so it'll be a couple of years before I need new tires again.

 

Also been very, VERY happy with the Michelin Primacy MXV4 (something like that) on our '08 Grand Caravan. Have had them on for 2.5 years, maybe 20K miles and they look almost new. Way better handling and quiet than the tires that were on there before. Am very satisfied with Michelins overall. Sorry to ramble so :-)

[hadvw]

You don't need snow specifically. Car control in low adhesion situations translates very well across all types of surface. We RallyX on sand, gravel, dirt, and grass -- you'd be amazed at how much sand feels/behaves like snow even in 100 degree heat.

 

As much fun as that appears to be, I could not fathom taking my daily-driver LGT to a sand track to play around with traction. I can't imagine the mess it would make, and/or the abrasion (aka sand-blasting) my paint would be subject to. It's bad enough when snow gets dirt in it and makes a partial mess of your car (in areas that get snow). Cleaning all that sand out of my car, not to mention possible sand in the intake, etc... Yikes.

 

(when I lived in Canada, start of each winter I would find a parking lot to re-familiarize myself with traction in snow, etc)

[ShadowImg]

This is fair, and why I own a car specifically for it. There are a bunch of guys there (and women) who use their daily drivers. You are absolutely correct about the mess -- you'll have sand coming out of various car orifices for weeks. The intake part is not an issue -- I was concerned with that on my first go as well, so I checked the filters after a couple runs. I have not noticed any indication at all in the intake that the filters are taking any of it in.

 

However, if the concern is that you have nowhere to learn to drive in low adhesion conditions, and you are worried about losing control of your car in an area where winter driving is a reality, the minor wear you may take from a couple sessions here is nothing compared to a single collision with another vehicle!

[Alfred_Buchi]

 

Some of the tire rack courses actually add things like soap/oil to the surface along with water to create an unusually low friction tarmac surface. Again, remarkably similar to ice on tarmac in how the car will react and what you need to do for control.

 

I used to teach at a driving school where they had painted 40 ft x 80 ft (roughly) enamel sections on the course that were slippery as heck when wet. On top of being more slippery than just wet pavement, the wear and tear on participants tires was greatly reduced, and the ease of locking up the rear wheels helped make sure every car was able to get a good slide in. I believe a drivers training course like this should be MANDATORY before anyone is allowed to drive in areas where snow and ice are found. Some kind of endorsement should be required on your license before you can travel to local socal mountains.

 

One time I flagged down a guy who was sliding all over the place, made him roll his window down, and after he was getting defensive about how he had never driven in snow and it was really difficult and people kept honking at him... I explained that he needed to release his E brake. Can't believe these people are allowed to drive on the same roads as the rest of us.

[BAC5.2]

If I could only have one, I'd take the snows in the summer over RE92s in the winter. We have already established that the snow tires are better in the winter than the RE92s, and you're much more likely to have traction issues in the winter than you are in the summer. It's much, much easier to lose control with the RE92s in the winter than it is with snows in the summer. I'm not advocating the use of snows in the summer.

 

Snow's wear FAR too quickly in warm weather conditions. By the time the next snow came around, they'd be nearing the end of their life. So those worn snow tires are going to be much less suitable for snow duty in the second snow season, than an RE92 would be.

 

Start both of them in winter, and drive them the same. And unlike an all-season, there is no design component suggesting successful use as a summer tire. Your argument against all-seasons in the snow is nothing compared to using snow tires in the summer.

 

 

In the dry is about the only time the RE92 is a decent tire. They're quiet, they're smooth - that's what sells cars and why they're fitted so often as OEM tires.

They are great in the wet too. And serviceable in the snow with good tread left.

 

My WRG2s brake and corner in the rain better than the RE92s did. Driving through deep standing water with two wheels in the rain with the RE92s had the car twitchy and prone to hydroplaning, whereas the G2s are much more stable.

Again, the WRG2 isn't in the same category as the RE92. A Continental DW or Pilot Sport is going to brake and corner better in the wet than your WRG2. You can compare out-of-class tires all you want, all day long. At the end, you are just making excuses.

 

Because they slide so much. And again, not everyone has a controlled and closed space to learn in. Most people get to learn snow driving on the road surrounded by other cars.

This is a fools excuse. You'll never sell out carnegie hall, if you don't practice playing the piano. If you don't practice driving in the snow, you are MUCH more likely to cause an accident, regardless of the tires you have.

 

To think you can hop in your car in the snow, and expect to be safe with no practice because you have snow tires, is a recipe for disaster. Cars are weapons, especially when driven by fools who make excuses to cover their mistakes.

 

I said it before, and I'll say it again. The RE92 is a scapegoat. Plain and simple. It's blamed for driver errors.

[ssbtech]

Snow's wear FAR too quickly in warm weather conditions. By the time the next snow came around, they'd be nearing the end of their life. So those worn snow tires are going to be much less suitable for snow duty in the second snow season, than an RE92 would be.

 

As I said, I'm not advocating the use of snows in the summer. What I said is that I would rather deal with the shortcomings of the winter tire in the summer than an all-season like the RE92 in the winter.

 

 

Start both of them in winter, and drive them the same. And unlike an all-season, there is no design component suggesting successful use as a summer tire. Your argument against all-seasons in the snow is nothing compared to using snow tires in the summer.

 

Again, I'm not suggesting that it is a wise idea to run snow tires in the summer.

 

It almost sounds like you're suggesting it is easier to lose control on winter tires in the summer than it is on the RE92s in the winter.

 

 

They are great in the wet too.

 

Sorry, they're not. They're quite prone to hydroplaning.

 

 

Do me a favor - stick some snow tires on your Outback like I've done then come back and tell me you're perfectly happy with the RE92.

 

I'm not disputing your claim that the RE92s are acceptable in the snow when driven within their limits. What I am saying is that the limits of the RE92s is unacceptably low for safe operation in severe weather conditions.

[ssbtech]

Again, the WRG2 isn't in the same category as the RE92. A Continental DW or Pilot Sport is going to brake and corner better in the wet than your WRG2. You can compare out-of-class tires all you want, all day long. At the end, you are just making excuses.

 

Sure the Pilot Sport will out-brake and out-corner the WRG2. But the WRG2 will run circles around the Pilot Sport in the snow.

 

I push my Outback quite hard on the WRG2s and I have yet to lose control in the rain or dry with them. As I said before, I would rather deal with the shortcomings of a winter/all-weather tire in the summer and rain than the shortcomings of an all-season in the winter.

[BAC5.2]

As I said, I'm not advocating the use of snows in the summer. What I said is that I would rather deal with the shortcomings of the winter tire in the summer than an all-season like the RE92 in the winter.

 

The shortcomings of a snow tire in the summer? By the next winter, you wouldn't have any snow tire left. You'd prefer bald snow tires, to good-tread all-seasons?

 

Again, I'm not suggesting that it is a wise idea to run snow tires in the summer.

 

But clearly you think it's a better idea to run snow tires all year round, than to run RE92's.

 

It almost sounds like you're suggesting it is easier to lose control on winter tires in the summer than it is on the RE92s in the winter.

 

It would sound like that, if you were putting words in my mouth and jumping to incorrect conclusions.

 

Winter tires aren't suitable for summer use.

 

 

Sorry, they're not. They're quite prone to hydroplaning.

 

Then you are driving too fast. You seem to have had issues in your short time with that tire, than I (and others) have had in much longer usage. It's not the tire.

 

Do me a favor - stick some snow tires on your Outback like I've done then come back and tell me you're perfectly happy with the RE92.

 

I'm not perfectly happy with the RE92. I upgraded. I wanted a higher performing all-season, so that's what I got. That doesn't make the RE92 any worse of a tire. It's still a great tire, I just wanted something that performed better and I was willing to give up a few things for those benefits (fuel economy, and some NVH).

 

I'm not disputing your claim that the RE92s are acceptable in the snow when driven within their limits. What I am saying is that the limits of the RE92s is unacceptably low for safe operation in severe weather conditions.

 

So now it's severe weather conditions?

 

The RE92 isn't a "severe weather tire". It's an all-season. If there are "severe weather conditions", then you need a real snow tire (not an all-weather tire) or you need to stay inside.

 

The limits of the RE92 is high enough for "normal" snowy conditions. I've never had an issue with them in the winter. They were perfectly adequate.

 

Sure the Pilot Sport will out-brake and out-corner the WRG2. But the WRG2 will run circles around the Pilot Sport in the snow.

 

But this isn't about the snow, it's about the rain. Again, you are comparing things completely arbitrarily.

 

I push my Outback quite hard on the WRG2s and I have yet to lose control in the rain or dry with them. As I said before, I would rather deal with the shortcomings of a winter/all-weather tire in the summer and rain than the shortcomings of an all-season in the winter.

 

Why give up so much in the summer/rain, to have a slight lead in the snow? Especially considering how quickly the snow tires will wear in the summer. By the time the next winter rolls around, you'd be out of usable snow tire. Any tires ability in the snow decreases as tread depth decreases.

 

It's clear I'm not going to change your mind, and that you aren't going to leave your walled garden. Whether you choose to admit it, or not, the RE92 is a perfectly fine all-season tire. The people that blame them for their loss of control, are simply using the tire as a scapegoat because they don't want to admit they might have made a mistake.

 

This thread has derailed so far, I think it's well over. I vote for closing.

[ssbtech]

The shortcomings of a snow tire in the summer? By the next winter, you wouldn't have any snow tire left. You'd prefer bald snow tires, to good-tread all-seasons?

 

Again, you're taking this out of context. I said I'd rather run a snow tire in the summer than the RE92 in the winter. Nothing more. You're the one inferring that I would use the tires all year and run them bald the next winter. Absolutely not. I think it's stupid to run snows in the summer, but given the choice I would rather run snows in the summer than RE92s in the winter.

 

 

Why give up so much in the summer/rain, to have a slight lead in the snow? Especially considering how quickly the snow tires will wear in the summer. By the time the next winter rolls around, you'd be out of usable snow tire. Any tires ability in the snow decreases as tread depth decreases.

 

Again, I'm not suggesting that someone run snow tires in the summer. And snow tires would provide a significant lead in the winter over the RE92's, not just a "slight lead" as you suggest.

[BAC5.2]

Again, you're taking this out of context. I said I'd rather run a snow tire in the summer than the RE92 in the winter. Nothing more. You're the one inferring that I would use the tires all year and run them bald the next winter. Absolutely not. I think it's stupid to run snows in the summer, but given the choice I would rather run snows in the summer than RE92s in the winter.

 

That wasn't what I asked. I asked which you'd run all year round. Your only tire. You chose a snow tire for year-round use vs. an RE92 for year-round use. I think that's a poor, ignorant choice.

 

And you are recommending that anyone with RE92's, would be better off running snow tires year-round. Right? Otherwise, you wouldn't choose a snow tire over an RE92 for only-tire use.

 

Again, I'm not suggesting that someone run snow tires in the summer. And snow tires would provide a significant lead in the winter over the RE92's, not just a "slight lead" as you suggest.

You said:

 

"I would rather deal with the shortcomings of a winter/all-weather tire in the summer and rain than the shortcomings of an all-season in the winter."

 

And my comments addressed "all-season" tires, like you said. Had you meant RE92's, you should have said so.

 

/thread. Again.

[ssbtech]

Well if you had actually asked which tire I'd run year round, my answer would be the WRG2.

 

I still stand by my comment that a winter tire used in the summer is less dangerous than the RE92 being used in the winter. I never said that someone should use a winter all-year, you're inferring that.