First snow, VERY disappointed

[ssbtech]

Winter tires - studded or not, will perform better on ice than all-seasons.

 

 

 

One just needs to look at the plethora of videos online where the test car has been fitted with winter tires on the front wheels and all-seasons on the back to look at the grip differences between winter and all-seasons.

[ShadowImg]

Winter tires - studded or not, will perform better on ice than all-seasons.

 

False generalization is still false.

 

News flash -- there are different quality winter tires, just as there are different quality all seasons. There are also different conditions of ice. Once more, you are making terrible generalizations.

[SurlyOldManMN]

Also, I do not believe you in the first place.

 

Oh, it can happen. This was from last year in my neck of the woods. Pretty sweet when your car starts sliding sideways at nearly a dead stop...

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAfill45uwI]Icy driveway - YouTube[/ame]

 

Wanna try getting around in that 'ish with some all seasons? I'll film...

[ShadowImg]

Sure, but clear, wet ice is not 2" of snow on pavement.

[SurlyOldManMN]

Is it impossible for conditions to be so bad that there's no reasonable way for a driver to remain in control or not? I submit to you that it is quite possible. I would not want to hit a patch of that stuff hidden under snow while running RE92's.

 

Black ice on the highway is good fun too. You can't possibly drive slow enough down the highway to deal with that on marginal tires without catching a ticket for driving too slow.

 

Sometimes you're just plain f'd. It happens.

[ehsnils]

Sure, but clear, wet ice is not 2" of snow on pavement.

 

No, but it's the worst possible condition that you may experience from a safety perspective. 2" of snow isn't a real problem for most tires except that you may have a hard time to get moving if you have summer tires on a 2WD car then.

 

It's to avoid that kind of situation that I have the Nokian Hakka 7:s.

[nm]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yeah, snow is traction (compared to ice). When ice racing without studs you try to aim for two things when trying to turn or slow: a bit of snow or where the studded tires tore the crap out of the ice already. I've driven on polished ice. It is hilarious, but not something you want to do when there is anything to hit for like half a mile.

 

Is it impossible for conditions to be so bad that there's no reasonable way for a driver to remain in control or not? I submit to you that it is quite possible. I would not want to hit a patch of that stuff hidden under snow while running RE92's.

You don't want to hit that shit with anything though.

I hit a patch of black ice on 94 with Hakka RSis and they certainly didn't have any grip. I was lucky I was traveling slow (you won't actually get a ticket for that in MN) and the freeway was empty.

 

That said, a high quality snow tire will out perform pretty much any all season (probably any) in a wintry condition. The extremely aggressive siping and chunks even without studs combined with a tire that stays soft as hell makes a huge difference. That compound is particularly important in places that actually get cold -- no not Chicago, but ND, northern Minnesota -- where all season rubber gets pretty hard. Hell, you can feel the difference in a cold winter day tick your nail in any all season and into a studless snow tire, you can feel the difference. (You can do the same in the summer with an all-season and like a dunlop star spec)

 

The Re92s are particularly bad. I bought my car in December and drove it back to Minneapolis. I had to be in Red Wing the next day for a court appearance and well, there was a snow storm. I went and by that afternoon I'd bought the Hakka RSis. The RE92s were far worse than the all-seasons I'd used before. They give no sense of traction (which may be because they provide little traction).

That said, I made it there and back fine because I recognized my limits and drove within them. Re92s aren't going to kill you, driving like a moron will, . . . but they'll sure help.

[Max Capacity]

Winter tires - studded or not, will perform better on ice than all-seasons.

 

 

 

One just needs to look at the plethora of videos online where the test car has been fitted with winter tires on the front wheels and all-seasons on the back to look at the grip differences between winter and all-seasons.

 

If I remember right, that is the point of this thread. No one is saying that is not true. What we are saying is that the new RE92's can do fine in snow. A all season tire can do fine is snow. Are they the best choice, No, but they are useable.

 

That's all we're saying.

[ShadowImg]

No, but it's the worst possible condition that you may experience from a safety perspective. 2" of snow isn't a real problem for most tires except that you may have a hard time to get moving if you have summer tires on a 2WD car then.

 

It's to avoid that kind of situation that I have the Nokian Hakka 7:s.

 

I never disagreed with that. I was replying to a very specific quote:

 

I've watched out of my window as cars couldn't make it up the fairly shallow grade in 2" of snow with shitty all-seasons on. You can't possibly tell me that's driver error.

 

Also, I do not believe you in the first place.

 

Oh, it can happen. This was from last year in my neck of the woods. Pretty sweet when your car starts sliding sideways at nearly a dead stop...

 

Sure, but clear, wet ice is not 2" of snow on pavement.

 

For some reason this went from me not believing that every car on the road with all season tires could not make it up a "fairly shallow grade" with "2" of snow" to correcting me because all seasons will likely not grip on a sheet of clear black ice.

 

I'd also like to point out, more than likely, anything short of a studded tire -- which aren't even legal in a lot of places, is not likely to find any grip on a sheet like that. Once again, it's up to the driver to understand the limits, stay away from those conditions where possible, and react appropriately where not.

[BAC5.2]

You don't want to hit that shit with anything though.I hit a patch of black ice on 94 with Hakka RSis and they certainly didn't have any grip. I was lucky I was traveling slow (you won't actually get a ticket for that in MN) and the freeway was empty.

 

Good thing you were going slow! Even snow tires aren't impervious to poor conditions. No tire would be appropriate for black ice, except extremely narrow heavily studded tires (which are illegal in most places, and not suitable for normal driving), and even then you'd be at a disadvantage.

 

That said, a high quality snow tire will out perform pretty much any all season (probably any) in a wintry condition.

 

This is absolutely true. I am completely confused why the best argument RE92 haters have, is that it can't compare to a snow tire. It's not a snow tire. It's an all season. A plain-jane, quiet and efficient all-season. Not a snow tire, but a tire perfectly serviceable in the snow with sufficient tread.

 

That said, I made it there and back fine because I recognized my limits and drove within them. Re92s aren't going to kill you, driving like a moron will, . . . but they'll sure help.

 

This is a great statement. No tire is going to cause you to do something. Tires don't decide to put you into a wall, or spin you out into oncoming traffic, or hydroplane. Tires don't do that. A driver can do it, and they can do it on any tire in the world. You can lose it on R-compounds in the middle of a summer track day. You can lose it on narrow studded tires in the dead of an Alaskan Winter. It's not the tires' fault that the driver makes an error that shunts the car.

 

 

I still don't get why the argument comes back to comparing snow tires to all-seasons. Take your snow tire and run it in the middle of summer. I'd take an RE92 as my only tire of the year over a snow tire used year-round. In the dry, the RE92 is a great tire. It's serviceable in the snow, and fine in the rain. It's quiet when cruising, audible at the limit of traction, and you can drive them like a jackass and have quite a bit of fun. It's forgiving and easy to drive at it's limits. On a street car, it's fast enough to keep corner carving exciting, and it returns decent fuel economy. It's not a UHPAS, it's not a snow tire, but that doesn't make it any less of a good tire. It makes slow cars fun, and fast cars exciting, and it's a GREAT way to learn the boundaries of how your car handles when grip is exceeded when pushed in a controlled and closed space. It's biggest fault, is the ~25-28k service life in winter (making you get a maximum of 2 seasons out of it, before it becomes unserviceable), but on the whole it's a tire you can expect reasonable dry/wet performance out of until ~40k.

 

It's not the greatest tire in the world, especially if you are willing to give up some features to go with a lower priced UHPAS, but it's completely undeserving of it's reputation. People hate it because they are looking for a scapegoat to pin their driving mistakes on, or because their expectations are unrealistic. If there is 2" of black ice on every road surface surrounding your house, are you really going to blame a non-snow-tire for not being capable of getting through it? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

 

If the tire doesn't meet your needs or expectations, replace it with one that does. But just because it doesn't meet your standards, doesn't mean it sucks. It just means your expectations exceed what the tire can deliver. That's not anyone, or anythings, fault. Just get a tire that meets your expectations, or alter your expectations to what the tire you have can provide.

 

Realistic expectations. Have them.

 

/thread.

[SurlyOldManMN]

For some reason this went from me not believing that every car on the road with all season tires could not make it up a "fairly shallow grade" with "2" of snow" to correcting me because all seasons will likely not grip on a sheet of clear black ice.

 

I'm speaking to the idea repeatedly put forth in this thread that if a you get in an accident in the winter it's because you were driving like an idiot. Things happen beyond your control that would require unreasonable precautions to avoid. It happens.

 

And you most certainly will get a ticket for driving 15 in a 55 down 94 on a clear, cold day.

[ShadowImg]

I'm speaking to the idea repeatedly put forth in this thread that if a you get in an accident in the winter it's because you were driving like an idiot. Things happen beyond your control that would require unreasonable precautions to avoid. It happens.

 

And you most certainly will get a ticket for driving 15 in a 55 down 94 on a clear, cold day.

 

Nobody was saying that -- go back and look at ssbtech's comments. He has been saying things like the RE92s will spontaneously cause you to lose control while going 5mph in 1" of fresh snow. Those are specifically what we're saying will only happen with poor driving.

 

There are a LOT of things that can happen on the road, winter or not, which can cause you to have an accident. That's why they're accidents. No tire is going to save you, and sometimes neither is any amount of driving skill. No argument there at all.

[Riptide]

I need something in 225/45/17. The best I can do per the reviews on tirerack in that size is the DWS. There may be better options but not that I can find on that website. At least not in that size. In any case judging by appearances they are going to be significantly better than the falken ziex on the car now which have very little siping on them and are more of a 3 season tire than anything else.

[BigTDogg MA]

I need something in 225/45/17. The best I can do per the reviews on tirerack in that size is the DWS. There may be better options but not that I can find on that website. At least not in that size. In any case judging by appearances they are going to be significantly better than the falken ziex on the car now which have very little siping on them and are more of a 3 season tire than anything else.

 

For a true 4 season tire, it's an excellent option. Great snow results in arctic circle testing.

[BAC5.2]

Keep in mind, that the DWS is still an all-season, and once the "S" layer of tread wears off (indicated by the disappearance of the "S" on the surface of the tread), it is no longer suitable for use in snow. It becomes a "DW" tire. Eventually the "W" wears off, and it becomes a tire only suitable for dry conditions.

 

No all-season retains it's capability in the snow for the duration of it's tread wear. This is important to keep in mind. If you drive a lot, an All-Season might only provide you with one (or possibly no) snow season. Buy them in December, and you'll be solid for the winter. Buy them in March and put 25k on them before December, and you'll be in trouble come snow-fall.

 

As far as UHPAS tires go, the DWS and the Pilot Sport AS+ are hard to beat in all-around performance. I like my Pilot Sports, but I'll go with the DWS on the next round.

[ShadowImg]

I gotta be honest, I'm partial to the RE960AS Pole Position as well -- I believe it's been replaced with the RE970PP now, which I can't speak to. I've even rallycrossed on the RE960, it's a surprisingly grippy little bugger.

 

This is another one much like the DWS where the tread depth isn't all that hot to start with though, you're only getting 11/32nds new, and once you're down to 8/32nds, you're not gonna want to take them out in the snow. Just the reality of all season tires.

[BigTDogg MA]

Keep in mind, that the DWS is still an all-season, and once the "S" layer of tread wears off (indicated by the disappearance of the "S" on the surface of the tread), it is no longer suitable for use in snow. It becomes a "DW" tire. Eventually the "W" wears off, and it becomes a tire only suitable for dry conditions.

 

This is true with every all-season tire, the DWS just has visual guides to aid in usage judgement.

[BAC5.2]

This is true with every all-season tire, the DWS just has visual guides to aid in usage judgement.

 

That's what I said before.

[Max Capacity]

.

 

No all-season retains it's capability in the snow for the duration of it's tread wear. This is important to keep in mind. If you drive a lot, an All-Season might only provide you with one (or possibly no) snow season. Buy them in December, and you'll be solid for the winter. Buy them in March and put 25k on them before December, and you'll be in trouble come snow-fall.

 

QUOTE]

 

This is exactly what I did with all 3 of my cars that came with RE92's. The 92 civic was fine the first winter,(bought it Aug 28 1992) back then I put about 25,000-27,000 miles on a year. My 1998 Legacy GT was bought in March, before winter I put Michelin MXV4's in it. My 00GT was bought in March, before winter, I put MXV4's on it. I still made it to VT very winter weekend to ski with all 3 of those cars. Gee with just a All-season tire.

 

Hopnestly, I really can't belief this thread has gone on this long.

[BigTDogg MA]

That's what I said before.

 

That's what SHE said

[ssbtech]

There are a LOT of things that can happen on the road, winter or not, which can cause you to have an accident. That's why they're accidents. No tire is going to save you, and sometimes neither is any amount of driving skill. No argument there at all.

 

"Accident" implies that there were things you could have done differently to have avoided the crash, such as equip your vehicle with better tires that give you more headroom for emergency situations.

 

Please refer to crashes as collisions, not accidents.

[ssbtech]

Take your snow tire and run it in the middle of summer. I'd take an RE92 as my only tire of the year over a snow tire used year-round.

 

If I could only have one, I'd take the snows in the summer over RE92s in the winter. We have already established that the snow tires are better in the winter than the RE92s, and you're much more likely to have traction issues in the winter than you are in the summer. It's much, much easier to lose control with the RE92s in the winter than it is with snows in the summer. I'm not advocating the use of snows in the summer.

 

 

In the dry, the RE92 is a great tire. It's serviceable in the snow, and fine in the rain.

 

In the dry is about the only time the RE92 is a decent tire. They're quiet, they're smooth - that's what sells cars and why they're fitted so often as OEM tires.

 

My WRG2s brake and corner in the rain better than the RE92s did. Driving through deep standing water with two wheels in the rain with the RE92s had the car twitchy and prone to hydroplaning, whereas the G2s are much more stable.

 

and it's a GREAT way to learn the boundaries of how your car handles when grip is exceeded when pushed in a controlled and closed space.

 

Because they slide so much. And again, not everyone has a controlled and closed space to learn in. Most people get to learn snow driving on the road surrounded by other cars.

[ShadowImg]

"Accident" implies that there were things you could have done differently to have avoided the crash, such as equip your vehicle with better tires that give you more headroom for emergency situations.

 

Please refer to crashes as collisions, not accidents.

 

There is no such implication; but that is also a valid definition. Clearly in this case it is not the intended usage.

 

ac·ci·dent/ˈaksidənt/

Noun:

An unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

A crash involving road or other vehicles, typically one that causes serious damage or injury.

 

Your semantic arguments are not helping your actual argument.

 

 

Because they slide so much. And again, not everyone has a controlled and closed space to learn in. Most people get to learn snow driving on the road surrounded by other cars.

 

I hate this argument. The SCCA, TireRack, and other programs make it readily available for everyone to participate in events which allow you to learn and test these situations in a safe, controlled environment. The only valid argument here is that you do not choose to participate in any of them.

[ssbtech]

 

I hate this argument. The SCCA, TireRack, and other programs make it readily available for everyone to participate in events which allow you to learn and test these situations in a safe, controlled environment. The only valid argument here is that you do not choose to participate in any of them.

 

 

Except when you live in jurisdictions that see too little snow to host any sort of snow and ice training/racing events...

[ShadowImg]

You don't need snow specifically. Car control in low adhesion situations translates very well across all types of surface. We RallyX on sand, gravel, dirt, and grass -- you'd be amazed at how much sand feels/behaves like snow even in 100 degree heat.

 

http://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/298771_578388064733_121202001_32007920_1628813667_n.jpg

 

Some of the tire rack courses actually add things like soap/oil to the surface along with water to create an unusually low friction tarmac surface. Again, remarkably similar to ice on tarmac in how the car will react and what you need to do for control.