BAC5.2 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Uh, what? So the Forester, Outback etc all got accolades because they were the only ones in their class that offered awd? Come on people, don't be disingenuous for the sake of "perspective" in the conversation. Subaru offers good packages, plain and simple. The fact that the pendulum continues to swing and it may or may not be in Subaru's disadvantage at the moment doesn't mean they suddenly suck. It is the nature of the auto industry. One gets top dog, someone else comes forward then, rinse and repeat. The fact that Subaru has done great in recent past is undisputable. They currently have the most efficient awd vehicle on the US market, period. And, in fact, I would say, most likely in the world. I agree. I never said Subaru's "hook" was AWD. I didn't actually care about drivetrain when I got my first one (clearly, because it was a FWD Legacy with a 4EAT). I kept buying them, because I liked the feel and "soul" of the car. That was the hook, and that's why the only current offering I'd consider is the STi because it retains throwbacks to that hook that lured me in the first place. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 When I mentioned a Hyundai "hook", I was referring to a performance hook, not a reliability hook or anything of the sort. They have proven to be quite reliable, though you'll find many people were drawn in at the beginning (late 90's, early 00's) by the warranty, but were skeptical about the brand. My parents did this, actually. They bought the car with hesitation about reliability but were comforted by the warranty. They were pleasantly rewarded by years of trouble-free ownership. That was the last Hyundai they bought, though. I appreciate your honesty and candor about your parents only owning one Hyundai. You have been honest and haven't attacked throughout this thread. I understood what you were saying about the "performance" hook too. The metaphorical sales "hook" can come in many forms though. Hyundai is really competive in certain market segments. They are improving in terms of durability/quality too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 "Hook" in the sense of an identity or tool to get people in the showroom, I agree. But let's not shortchange Subaru on the rest of their accomplishments. Think back when the new Forester came out. IIRC it towed the most and even got the best observed mpg of the bunch when tested by Motor Trend at least, out of the crossover pack, just to name a couple of points. When gas price was high they sold like hotcakes and unless I am mistaken sales are still doing pretty good. People are paying attention. Are they perfect? No. A 4EAT in 2011 is a joke, frankly. Direct injection? I used to be hoping for it until I started reading about all the carbon deposit issues others are having. I'll be the first to admit that I hate fanboyish conversations as well, but responding with negativity isn't the best approach either. Also, regarding reliability studies, I am skeptical of some. Not to say I reject them when some manufacturer I root for isn't doing good apparently, but the way each tracks their in-house numbers can vary. I know for example BMW tend to be assholes when it comes to issues under and outside warranty and they almost never issue recalls because, in their own words, this would dillute the perception in people's mind about the brand. Look, that's your problem, not mine. You need to fix your own mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black318i Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Remember how Hyundai copied Mercedes front headlights. I thought this car was good looking the first couple times I saw it....too bad they don't bring back that styling. It was a "hook"... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-Hyundai-Sonata-GLS-1-Owner-Car-131k-Creampuff-/180731826477?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2a1474d12d Styling is subjective and not worh bringing up, original or not they sell a lot of cars. I've watched probably hundreds of reviews any time Hyundai is discussed value is almost always brought up. If I had to say what their hook is, I would say value. The warranty is a major plus too. I think it was a necessity to get people to reconsider Hyundai way back when, but I think it’s cool that it’s still around. For about a decade reliability has been at least slightly better than average and has been getting better. No bigger isn’t better, but if there is a demand why would you not step up and your offerings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 "Hook" in the sense of an identity or tool to get people in the showroom, I agree. But let's not shortchange Subaru on the rest of their accomplishments. Think back when the new Forester came out. IIRC it towed the most and even got the best observed mpg of the bunch when tested by Motor Trend at least, out of the crossover pack, just to name a couple of points. When gas price was high they sold like hotcakes and unless I am mistaken sales are still doing pretty good. People are paying attention. Are they perfect? No. A 4EAT in 2011 is a joke, frankly. Direct injection? I used to be hoping for it until I started reading about all the carbon deposit issues others are having. I'll be the first to admit that I hate fanboyish conversations as well, but responding with negativity isn't the best approach either. Also, regarding reliability studies, I am skeptical of some. Not to say I reject them when some manufacturer I root for isn't doing good apparently, but the way each tracks their in-house numbers can vary. I know for example BMW tend to be assholes when it comes to issues under and outside warranty and they almost never issue recalls because, in their own words, this would dillute the perception in people's mind about the brand. Look, that's your problem, not mine. You need to fix your own mess. I agree and am not ready to place the "Crown" on Hyundai as the automaker with the highest quality and best performing (speed and durability) cars. It's a fact that they are right up there and giving everyone a run for their money. The Genesis is a slick car for a single person who desires value and performance, with potential for tuning and mods. Better than a Mustang or RX? Sure. Better than a 370 or g? No. The RX7 we had years ago was a horrible money pit with no torque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Styling is subjective and not worh bringing up, original or not they sell a lot of cars. I've watched probably hundreds of reviews any time Hyundai is discussed value is almost always brought up. If I had to say what their hook is, I would say value. The warranty is a major plus too. I think it was a necessity to get people to reconsider Hyundai way back when, but I think it’s cool that it’s still around. For about a decade reliability has been at least slightly better than average and has been getting better. No bigger isn’t better, but if there is a demand why would you not step up and your offerings. Styling is still a hook. Cars are often sold based on looks. Isn't there a group of people here that hate the styling of the new Subaru's? Those people are leaving because of the looks...not the value, dependability or features. I'm not talking all the former subaru owners, but many are hear pi$$in&m0an!ng about the styling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I contend that the brand new V6 Mustang is a better choice than the V6 Genesis. The 2.0T, however, is the Genesis to get if you are going to get one. In fact, I'd say the 2.0T is one of the better RWD sport coupes within $10k of it's price range. Just don't leave it stock. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I agree and am not ready to place the "Crown" on Hyundai as the automaker with the highest quality and best performing (speed and durability) cars. Neither am I but that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to recognize how far they have come in the last decade. They are no longer the underdog, the cheap Korean manufacturer that offers cheap, boring, pedestrian cars with absolutely no resale value. They are now "legit". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black318i Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Styling is still a hook. Cars are often sold based on looks. Isn't there a group of people here that hate the styling of the new Subaru's? Those people are leaving because of the looks...not the value, dependability or features. I'm not talking all the former subaru owners, but many are hear pi$$in&m0an!ng about the styling. Yes it a hook, but from what I see value is what Hyundai has been using to lure people in. Subaru has been known for quirky looking car and they are successful. I looked into the bug eye WRX and current Legacy even though I think they are ugly. In fact the car I'm considering for next car is ugly IMO. Neither am I but that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to recognize how far they have come in the last decade. They are no longer the underdog, the cheap Korean manufacturer that offers cheap, boring, pedestrian cars with absolutely no resale value. They are now "legit". +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 They are no longer the underdog, the cheap Korean manufacturer that ONLY offers cheap, boring, pedestrian cars with absolutely no resale value. They are now "legit". See edit. They still make those, they just now make other stuff too. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black318i Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 See edit. They still make those, they just now make other stuff too. So do a lot of other successful auto makers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 That's true. It wasn't a comment on their success. Calm down. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black318i Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I am calm. I would have insulted you, used all caps, or all bold if I wasn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Ok, you just seemed a little defensive. My mistake. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black318i Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 No problem. Your statement seemed to single them out so I just wanted to throw other auto makers into the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Ahh, nope, just concerning my comments to Hyundai in this thread. I just looked at the 5.0R-spec again, and that's got halfway decent specs. I especially like that they didn't try to design the transmission themselves. ZF makes good transmissions. I'd be interested in overlooking the thin doors and "meh" dash materials if the 5.0R-spec could be had with a manual transmission. That'd be enough to make me consider it over the Infiniti M. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Ahh, nope, just concerning my comments to Hyundai in this thread. I just looked at the 5.0R-spec again, and that's got halfway decent specs. I especially like that they didn't try to design the transmission themselves. ZF makes good transmissions. I'd be interested in overlooking the thin doors and "meh" dash materials if the 5.0R-spec could be had with a manual transmission. That'd be enough to make me consider it over the Infiniti M. I agree that considering Hyundai on their lower cost cars makes sense, but when it comes to spending money on the top of the line models just doesn't work for me. If I had the money to get a Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti or BMW in comparison to a Hyundai....I would almost never get the Hyundai. I know they have improved and are improving, but those are "image" cars to use your "hook analogy". None of those premium brands are the fastest, most durable, most quality, most technologically advanced, but they have the brand image. I know Hyundai is working on the image, but it's just not there. To agree to a certain extent, Hyundai has created some interesting performance numbers and provided great features. I just don't think the Hyundai will get the same response from fellow members at the country club or five star restaurant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 It would if you slapped a BMW logo on it, though. The trouble is a struggling paradigm. People have a negative impression of the brand, simply because of the logo and history. People will buy a BMW, even if it's ugly, because it's a BMW. Hyundai is fighting that paradigm, and I think they are doing a mostly admirable job. I just wish they would cater a little more to the eccentric, because that's the kind of thing that makes a company stand apart from the crowd. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 It would if you slapped a BMW logo on it, though. The trouble is a struggling paradigm. People have a negative impression of the brand, simply because of the logo and history. People will buy a BMW, even if it's ugly, because it's a BMW. Hyundai is fighting that paradigm, and I think they are doing a mostly admirable job. I just wish they would cater a little more to the eccentric, because that's the kind of thing that makes a company stand apart from the crowd. Can't deny it. You are right. I'm not a total BMW fan, but like you say logo and history. Hyundai is doing a very good job. When a BMW is ugly, it's quirky or unique and grows on you (haha). Unfortunately Hyundai's niche will the masses and not the classes (right away at least). They could target eccentric racer groups with certain economy models to stand apart. Essentially, that is similar to what Subaru did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted October 7, 2011 I Donated Share Posted October 7, 2011 When I mentioned a Hyundai "hook", I was referring to a performance hook, not a reliability hook or anything of the sort. Performance isn't the only kind of "hook." For a while, Subaru's "hook" was utility. Then it was turbocharged performance. Now, with the new Outback, the larger Legacy, and the slower but roomier and better-mileage Impreza, it's utility again. Honda has had a performance hook at various times, but what really sold their cars was reliability. Same with Toyota. Nissan and Mazda obviously have had a little of both at most points throughout their history. The "hook" is what sells the car, not what makes the car perform better. Hyundai's "hook" at the beginning was that it was super cheap. Then it was the warranty and, while not super-cheap, a better value for money than the Japanese automakers. Now, it's the warranty, the value for money (admittedly decreasing now that Hyundai is a legitimate player), and the quality of the cars, both design- and reliability-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgeracer Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Uh, what? So the Forester, Outback etc all got accolades because they were the only ones in their class that offered awd? Come on people, don't be disingenuous for the sake of "perspective" in the conversation. Subaru offers good packages, plain and simple. The fact that the pendulum continues to swing and it may or may not be in Subaru's disadvantage at the moment doesn't mean they suddenly suck. It is the nature of the auto industry. One gets top dog, someone else comes forward then, rinse and repeat. The fact that Subaru has done great in recent past is undisputable. They currently have the most efficient awd vehicle on the US market, period. And, in fact, I would say, most likely in the world. Look again, everybody else makes pedestrian cars for the most part as well, save for one or two halo cars. In fact you can have a lot more fun with a base model barebones MT Impreza than with other cars in the same class. I'm sure a Civic or Sentra would be a lot of fun on backroads I would have more fun driving an MTA city bus on the backroads....lol "Gimme mines Balboa...Gimme mines".....Clubber Lang - Mr. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracer-X Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 I agree that considering Hyundai on their lower cost cars makes sense, but when it comes to spending money on the top of the line models just doesn't work for me. If I had the money to get a Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti or BMW in comparison to a Hyundai....I would almost never get the Hyundai. I think the point is that people don't have the $$ to buy a BMW or Audi so they buy a Hyundai that is cheaper and are happy with their purchase. Jump on it, Let's do it, Ride it, My Pony... EL4NFZT7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 I think the point is that people don't have the $$ to buy a BMW or Audi so they buy a Hyundai that is cheaper and are happy with their purchase. There have been companies that used that type of advertising... http://jalopnik.com/238677/the-75+80-ford-granada-just-like-a-mercedes-really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 I think the point is that people don't have the $$ to buy a BMW or Audi so they buy a Hyundai that is cheaper and are happy with their purchase. There have been companies that used that type of advertising... http://jalopnik.com/238677/the-75+80-ford-granada-just-like-a-mercedes-really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted October 8, 2011 I Donated Share Posted October 8, 2011 There have been companies that used that type of advertising... http://jalopnik.com/238677/the-75+80-ford-granada-just-like-a-mercedes-really The difference is that the Genesis and Equus are actually competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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