How's my LV?

[fahr_side]

1:1 would be 4th. My 3rd is 1.296 and 4th is 0.972. Hmm okay, gotta work on this. I think I'm going to add another column in for initial wgdc in RR to make it easier on myself, and possiblly road speed too so I have an indication of what gear I'm in. My logs are huge because it's my 15-20 minute commute.

 

edit: I think in 5th at 2300RPM, I'm making 6psi on 0% WGDC... That's... annoying, hmm. Log attached if you're curious.

edit2: Damnit, I have no idea how to get rid of this... Init WDC is already super low at just about 35%. I think this might be normal??

I will have a look at your log later but want to say this first. If you have boost at 0% WGDC that is not a problem. Remember the boost control system can add boost pressure on top of what the wastegate actuator itself will physically create just from its spring. There is nothing wrong with this and nothing you can do about it either. The stock actuator opens at about 10psi.

[iNVAR]

Wastegate boost pressure, right? So I just sort of have to deal with it. Thanks for looking at them. No hurry, not driving the car tomorrow or anything, plenty of time for me to make adjustments to the tables whenever.

[blongo804]

Ok I packed up and I'm leaving. Sorry!

[fahr_side]

Wastegate boost pressure, right? So I just sort of have to deal with it.

If you don't want boost right off idle, get a bigger turbo.

 

If you want to be sure what is going on you could connect the actuator straight to the compressor outlet and log that. This would show you the minimum boost you could see with your hardware setup. Or you could zero out the WGDC tables and cap max WGDC post-compensation also to zero.

 

When running those long logs make life easier by logging gear position. The data will make more sense.

 

This not the 'official check my LV thread'. It's the official 'learn iNVAR to t00n boost thread'.

[fahr_side]

1:1 would be 4th. My 3rd is 1.296 and 4th is 0.972. Hmm okay, gotta work on this. I think I'm going to add another column in for initial wgdc in RR to make it easier on myself, and possiblly road speed too so I have an indication of what gear I'm in. My logs are huge because it's my 15-20 minute commute.

 

edit: I think in 5th at 2300RPM, I'm making 6psi on 0% WGDC... That's... annoying, hmm. Log attached if you're curious.

edit2: Damnit, I have no idea how to get rid of this... Init WDC is already super low at just about 35%. I think this might be normal??

OK. If this is a 5th gear log then it seems like normal. Remember my comments about how easy it is to get into a little boost in the higher gears, even with zero WGDC. Look at rows 19 through 26. Zero WGDC but still you have boost.

You could drop the initial WGDC further, but be sure doing that doesn't create a big positive TD correction in 2nd or 3rd gear in the same rpm / throttle angle area.

 

Try combining all your logs and then average out the following data from just this rpm and throttle range: Boost error, manifold relative pressure and primary WGDC. That will give you an idea if your boost target needs to be revised upwards and / or if your initial WGDC really warrants changing.

[iNVAR]

So it's basically a compromise, when you decide which gear to tune for, at least with my car, without per gear tuning... I can tune for 5th, and end up with positive TD in 3rd, or I can tune for 3rd or 4th, and end up with negative TD in 5th?

 

I don't think it'll really matter too much if I drop the initial WGDC any further because TD seems to knock it down to 0 just fine anyway... Think it'd be acceptable to just leave it? Upping the boost target seems like... just "masking" the overboost to me?

 

And yeah, I'm gonna have to log the gear or something, or at least vehicle speed, lol... don't know why I didn't realize that sooner.

 

This not the 'official check my LV thread'. It's the official 'learn iNVAR to t00n boost thread'.

Haha, yeah it's sure turned into that.... First I was just pulling timing, now I'm messing with the boost so much.

[fahr_side]

So it's basically a compromise, when you decide which gear to tune for, at least with my car, without per gear tuning... I can tune for 5th, and end up with positive TD in 3rd, or I can tune for 3rd or 4th, and end up with negative TD in 5th?

In a nutshell, yes!

I don't think it'll really matter too much if I drop the initial WGDC any further because TD seems to knock it down to 0 just fine anyway... Think it'd be acceptable to just leave it?

Acceptable? Yes. You might try to get the initial value to where the positive and negative values are the balanced, if you want perfection.

Upping the boost target seems like... just "masking" the overboost to me?

Not really. Much of the part-load boost tuning is letting the turbo do what it's happy with. The less intervention you have the smoother the drive. Overboost can cause timing to be pulled in many ECUs.

[iNVAR]

Yeah, I'm going to try to get the pos/neg compensation to about an even amount for each, so it's not stretched to the limits.

 

But if I'm just changing the target boost to match the boost, aren't I just essentially "redefining" what overboost is? I'm still running the same amount of boost either way?

 

Like if I just raise target boost to 6PSI (from 4PSI) I'm no longer overboosting by 2 PSI, but I'm still just running 6PSI, right? And the timing will still be the same in my map, won't it? Unless I need to readjust that too?

 

So why bother raising the target at all?

[fahr_side]

Very simply, if you are at under about 10psi the actuator cannot open the wastegate... there just isn't enough pressure available to overcome the spring. In this case you can have all zeros in your WGDC and still see boost if there is enough load to spool the turbo.

 

I don't know if earlier ECUs have this logic or not. CANbus cars certainly do. If boost error goes into negative numbers (overboost), the ECU pulls timing via knock correction to protect the motor from real detonation before it happens. IIRC it's via FBKC at low revs and some point shifts to FLKC. I could have this the wrong way 'round but I can't open any logs right now to check. This system is so sensitive that boost error just has to head quickly toward zero and it pulls timing.

I can feel this if it happens and it bothers me. In logs you have to look very closely to see if you have real det or if it's overboost protection at play. In LV you will no idea what's up.

Just set your boost target at light load / low rpm at least 0.5psi lower than you ever see in your logs.

 

I was only half-kidding about the bigger turbo eh.

[iNVAR]

Okay, so I need to dial up the boost levels at those low rpms and low throttle areas... boo.

 

I think most of those targets were from the stock map, if I recall correctly. Very little (if anything) was changed for boost targets at below WOT. That being the case, were those targets okay for stock, but because I've gone stage 2, the targets have to be readjusted higher?

 

Also, a 3-port seems pretty inexpensive now that I'm looking at it... will getting a 3 port really make things that much better? I never realized that it's under $120 for a GS 3-port!

 

As for bigger turbo... next year, my friend, next year. 16G here I come. Can't wait! But when I get that, I'm going to have someone else do the tuning. I'll probably do the same thing like I did this time... have someone do the tuning, and then as time goes on, I'll make adjustments to everything. I don't know anything about how to decide what timing to run, or fueling or anything like that. I'm basically just "tweaking" things at this point. Certainly not enough to tune a new turbo setup on my own.

[fahr_side]

Okay, so I need to dial up the boost levels at those low rpms and low throttle areas... boo.

 

I think most of those targets were from the stock map, if I recall correctly. Very little (if anything) was changed for boost targets at below WOT. That being the case, were those targets okay for stock, but because I've gone stage 2, the targets have to be readjusted higher?

You already have a safe tune, and I haven't heard you complain about driveability. Strictly speaking you don't need to change anything. In a stage two map I also often don't change anything in the low load / low rpm areas.

Sometimes with the very small turbos, adding a downpipe does allow the turbo to spool very early.

Also, a 3-port seems pretty inexpensive now that I'm looking at it... will getting a 3 port really make things that much better? I never realized that it's under $120 for a GS 3-port!

It really is much easier to tune. You can buy a GM part for <$30.

As for bigger turbo... next year, my friend, next year. 16G here I come. Can't wait! But when I get that, I'm going to have someone else do the tuning. I'll probably do the same thing like I did this time... have someone do the tuning, and then as time goes on, I'll make adjustments to everything. I don't know anything about how to decide what timing to run, or fueling or anything like that. I'm basically just "tweaking" things at this point. Certainly not enough to tune a new turbo setup on my own.

Hehe. I went straight from tweaking canned stg1 maps to my own stg3 tune. It was a big step but I had a good friend who is a few years ahead of me on the learning curve to hold my hand. Forums like RR were also invaluable. Of course it took a few months of constant changes to get that tune really smooth, but it was at least safe from day one. I made the process harder for myself by changing the hardware configuration a few times along the way. Great learning experience... frustrating at times but well worth it.

 

IIWY I'd start working on a stg3 basemap now, months in advance, just on your desktop, to see what is involved. You can always buy a tune when the time comes if you don't dare use your own. I started working on my own map the day I ordered the turbo. Even if you don't use your own map the process will help you understand the tune you buy.

 

The timing tables I can't directly help you with as I've never worked on a car with B25 heads. You could grab tables from someone like MickeyD though. I could help you with the other stuff as I have well-developed tunes for '06 WRX and FXT models to draw on. If you are keeping the stock intake and injectors it's pretty simple really.

[Ridgeracer]

iNVAR...Depending on the size of the turbine housing and if you have a FMIC or TMIC plus fuel available will governing the timing. But in general from what I have seen, most larger turbos setup run total timing at peak tq around 12-13 deg and 20-21 deg by 6500rpms. This is on 93 oct. If you had E85 or race gas timing could easily be 4-5 deg higher across the map. Timing is actually the easy part. Getting the injector scaling correct and boost control correct is where the work is. Also bare in mind MAF scaling is affected by injector scaling and latency. If it was me, I would first get a WBO2 sensor and get the stock MAF scale dead on with the primary open loop table. Now you have a very accurate MAF scale to work with. Next install the injectors and start with a scaling and latency setting suggested by the manufacturer. It's not going to be right off the bat but just a starting point. The scaling is going to move the AFR across the entire MAF scale up (higher number) or down (lower number). Latency will add an offset to the MAF scale either steady increasing AFR or decreasing it. Once the right scaling and latency are dialed in, your fuel trims should be the same pre injectors.

[bmx045]

So is infamous done tuning it?

[JDM SpecB]

So is infamous done tuning it?

 

No we are on revision 4 now.

 

It feels really nice to drive. All other times after a new rev was flashed the IAM rose back to 1 within an hour max.

[NSFW]

Apparently he just found your knock threshold. Don't lose any sleep over it, it's just part of the process.

[iNVAR]

Okay, question time! Been working on dialing in boost, it's progressing well so far. Not overboosting at WOT by a whole lot anymore, hopefully it stays that way! But I have noticed some knock, AGAIN, and it's pissing me off...

 

Since I started this whole thing, I've removed a lot of timing from trouble areas. My major problem area seems to be the 2.05 or 2.25 load area between 5800-6400 RPM. I've had to pull a lot of timing from that area and its surrounding cells (to smooth things) and I'm a bit concerned.

 

 

I've compared my total timing (base+advance) to mickeyd's total timing (base+advance) and I'm missing a pretty huge chunk. Here's mine so far (not smoothed) compared to Mickeyd's stage2. Mine is first, his is second.

 

I realize the columns are different so the values aren't directly comparable until they match up exactly, like say... 2.45. Look how much less timing my table has.

 

What is causing this? Is it just unique to my engine? Is my fueling off? Running too lean or something?

[subawang]

FWIW, I have similar mods to you (AVO TMIC, Cobb catted DP, stock uncatted UP, and I don't think your other mods make a difference power-wise) and my last Infamous1 revision had similar timing to what you now have. Since then, I've dialed in my map for track driving and have anywhere from 1-5 degrees less timing than you over full load operation.

 

So, I don't think your car is an anomaly. The Mickeyd map just seems very aggressively timed.

[cryo]

Edit, nevermind.

 

Dave

[Ridgeracer]

The 93 oct in the tri-state is not all that great IMHO. Another possibility is your mid to high end AFRs. However without a WBO2 we cannot confirm..What does your Primary Open Loop fuel table look like?

[Ridgeracer]

Can you post your current DA table as well as the mickyd table. I would like to see the total timing.

 

Dave

 

I believe both pics above are total timing. That's pretty reasonable for a VF40 on 93.

[cryo]

I believe both pics above are total timing. That's pretty reasonable for a VF40 on 93.

 

I don't know why I thought I was looking at atr, shouldn't post before im awake. Already edited.

 

Dave

[iNVAR]

FWIW, I have similar mods to you (AVO TMIC, Cobb catted DP, stock uncatted UP, and I don't think your other mods make a difference power-wise) and my last Infamous1 revision had similar timing to what you now have. Since then, I've dialed in my map for track driving and have anywhere from 1-5 degrees less timing than you over full load operation.

 

So, I don't think your car is an anomaly. The Mickeyd map just seems very aggressively timed.

Hmm, thanks very much for your input. Less concerned now.

 

The 93 oct in the tri-state is not all that great IMHO. Another possibility is your mid to high end AFRs. However without a WBO2 we cannot confirm..What does your Primary Open Loop fuel table look like?

Thanks for looking at it RR. Here's the table. Still haven't replaced the panel filter with a stock paper one yet. Think that will really make much of a difference?

[iNVAR]

I said this before in your other thread. If you're currently in the process of being tuned by Infamous, you shouldn't be posting here asking everyone if things look okay. It's kind of inappropriate.

[JDM SpecB]

Well we are pretty much finished off now with the tuning and as everyone knows its easier to get answers here than troubling Shamar with lots of questions while he is busy tuning cars.

 

Sorry if I interrupted your Q&A thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[iNVAR]

No, it's not that, I don't mind. It's just that if you're still tuning and you ask if something looks wrong/right, and someone else jumps in and says something other than what Infamous says, it can cause problems. As you can see, tuners have very different methods of dialing in different aspects of the tune. You chose to go with Infamous, which means you chose to go with his methods. It's kind of inappropriate to pay for someone's services and methodologies but in the middle of the process, you start asking other people how things should look. At least that's my opinion.

 

It's a bit different when you're a year out of the tune and you're looking to really fine tune apsects of things, like I am.

 

Yeah, it's easier to get *an* answer by posting here, but the answer you really should be getting should be coming from Shamar, at least for now.