How's my LV?

[iNVAR]

Here's how a 3rd gear WOT looked today. Pretty damn hot out, like 85... unbelievable. It was just 50-60! Argh.

 

Anyway, the road's not perfectly level and straight (I think I'm actually on a slight uphill slant if I'm not mistaken), which would account for some slight variations in the boost and stuff. Also, even at 90% WGDC, still not hitting targets at 4600-6K, but... that's just the VF40 running out of steam anyway. I believe getting a 3port EBC would help, and I'd have more WGDC to play with, but... probably not needed eh?

 

I don't seem to be hitting full boost as quickly as I used to, not until almost 3300 for 3rd gear. Wonder if I should fix that. The thing is... if I adjust for that, I think I have a tendency to spike a bit more in 5th. Right now, the 5th gear spike never exceeds about 1PSI. Also, intake temp shows it was pretty warm, might've had some heatsoak action here.

 

Also, sorry, didn't log target boost, so that's not in the graph.

 

edit: attached Init WGDC table, and boost targets underneath.

boost.csv

[Ridgeracer]

IMHO....You need to drive TD Proportional closer to 0. Lower your initial WGDC at WOT by 5% from 4K-6K. Also 2.7K - 3.6K need to be lowered by about 8%. Looking at your boost, it oscillates a bit before running target. This is going to me more pronounced in higher gears. TD integral should max out to compensate.

[iNVAR]

Lower it? Awe maaaan. I went in with the approach that I want to get Initial WGDC as close as possible to actual WGDC with as little interference as possible from TD... damnit. And I pretty much tried to target 4th gear.

 

edit: I can see what you're saying too though. TD Int gets stuck at 5 due to Max WGDC being hit and TD Prop drops too quickly, which is why I don't hit target boost till 3300. But if I have it run TD Int up, I think it'll have a tendency to spike from not dropping fast enough.

 

Hmm, I need to think about this and experiment a bit to see what happens.

[Sicotic]

Lower it? Awe maaaan. I went in with the approach that I want to get Initial WGDC as close as possible to actual WGDC with as little interference as possible from TD... damnit. And I pretty much tried to target 4th gear.

 

edit: I can see what you're saying too though. TD Int gets stuck at 5 due to Max WGDC being hit and TD Prop drops too quickly, which is why I don't hit target boost till 3300. But if I have it run TD Int up, I think it'll have a tendency to spike from not dropping fast enough.

 

Hmm, I need to think about this and experiment a bit to see what happens.

 

im in the process of tuning as well. So far looks good i hit target boost about 2400 rpms.. 15.76. even when im in like 4th gear ill hit the gas an it will hit boost quick.

[iNVAR]

im in the process of tuning as well. So far looks good i hit target boost about 2400 rpms.. 15.76. even when im in like 4th gear ill hit the gas an it will hit boost quick.

 

Boost will actually come up quicker if you're in the sweet spot for the turbo and you're in the higher gear.

 

Anyways, RR, just to experiment, I did a few more pulls today on the way to work. Wanted to see what would happen if I tried to close the gap between actual WGDC and Init WGDC so I actually increased the Init WGDC by 2-3% at that little dip at 3200/3600. Not a good idea I guess. I get a bit more of a spike, although that could have been due to the cold morning air as seen by the intake temps.

 

I was able to get several WOT pulls between gears 3-5 today to see how things look, and I see the oscillation you're talking about.

 

The files are named accordingly. Short = short pull, spanning around 1500RPM at most. Long pulls are much longer. And there's one that I went straight from 3rd into 4th, pulling into redline (almost) in both gears.

 

I think I'm going to try an experiment with making TD Prop less aggressive and making TD Int more aggressive in both directions and see what happens.

Interesting thing to note in my short 5th gear log is that I was riding the pedal at about 30% throttle prior to mashing it. You can see how the TD Int and Prop are far into the negative. When I mash it, due to TD Int being so negative I never actually hit target! In other words, if I had released the pedal momentarily before mashing it, TD Int would've reset to 0, and my WGDC would've been higher and I would've actually hit the target.

wot-3rd-long-rev11.csv

wot-3rd-to-4th-long-rev11.csv

wot-4th-short-rev11.csv

wot-5th-long-rev11.csv

wot-5th-short1-rev11.csv

wot-5th-short2-rev11.csv

wot-5th-short3-rev11.csv

[fahr_side]

I've compared my total timing (base+advance) to mickeyd's total timing (base+advance) and I'm missing a pretty huge chunk. Here's mine so far (not smoothed) compared to Mickeyd's stage2. Mine is first, his is second.

You need to get on that asap. Smooth, then log. Grab a copy of ECUtek's Delta Dash demo to graph out the logs and you'll see clearly how your timing drifts up and down through a pull.

 

Here's the table. Still haven't replaced the panel filter with a stock paper one yet. Think that will really make much of a difference?

You are running richer than the TD04 maps I am used to. Plenty of fuel there, and as long as you are hitting those targets (could check with WBO2) that should not be causing det.

 

Also, even at 90% WGDC, still not hitting targets at 4600-6K, but... that's just the VF40 running out of steam anyway. I believe getting a 3port EBC would help, and I'd have more WGDC to play with, but... probably not needed eh?

You are not going to hold boost higher than that past 4k6 even if you weld the wastegate shut. The 3-port will help a lot smoothing out your boost control and it is much easier to tune with. Don't expect a performance advantage. Even if you can hold slightly higher boost you will not see any more power because the little VF-40 is just past it's efficiency range. Can't cheat the laws of physics!

I don't seem to be hitting full boost as quickly as I used to, not until almost 3300 for 3rd gear. Wonder if I should fix that. The thing is... if I adjust for that, I think I have a tendency to spike a bit more in 5th. Right now, the 5th gear spike never exceeds about 1PSI. Also, intake temp shows it was pretty warm, might've had some heatsoak action here.

High temps slow spool, just as more dense air helps it.

 

I think you should drop your boost target at 2k6 to something more reasonable. You will not be able to hit that in lower gears and it will take some real fine tuning with WGDC to prevent spiking in the higher gears when TD is pushing to hit that target. Set targets that are just slightly optimistic in 3rd and you won't have to hold it back as much in 4th/5th. Initial WGDC is a little high still at 3k6 evidenced by the small overboost there. In 5th you are looking okay for most of the time but you see that little overboost at around 2k8 where TD integral was wound up positive so that TD prop couldn't catch it in time. Dropping the boost target below 2k8 would help here.

 

TBH, I tend to run the rows a little closer together through the spool area for better resolution. See you have rows spaced at narrow intervals down low... 2k, 2k4, 2k6... and then a whole 1k gap to 3k6. I scale something more like: 800, 1k2, 1k6, 2k, 2k4, 3k2, 3k6, 4k4, 5k6, 6k, 6k4. Make your target at 2k4 = 16.5, 2k8 = 18 and hold that to 3k6. Taper to 14.1 at 4k4, 15.0 at 5k6 and 13.8 at 6k. That fits much better to what you are actually seeing. Of course you will have to interpolate and smooth the rest of the table to do this.

[iNVAR]

Okay, I'm going to need some time to incorporate all of that, but for now, here's my new smoother table... I had to remove a LOT of timing from all over to make it smooth.... just feels so wrong to pull that much timing just to make things smooth. It still looks "blocky" but... to smooth it out any more I'd have to keep pulling timing. Am I going about things correctly?

 

This is the original table:

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=106472&d=1318054443

 

As usual, thanks

[fahr_side]

Would you paste both your current base and advance tables into airboy and post that here?

[iNVAR]

Never was able to get airboy to work right when I paste timing tables in. Every time I try to recalculate the total timing table, it messes up all the columns (they no longer match)... and I also get a visual basic runtime error.

 

I've tried pasting the table directly from RR which causes the columns to be misaligned, and I've tried first pasting the table into my text editor to fix the tab positions, and THEN pasting it into airboy, and it still gets messed up...

[iNVAR]

Here's a SS of how it looks after I hit the "end" button from the VB runtime error. There are too many columns that don't match my original base/advance table columns.

Here's a direct C&P from airboy's total timing.

           [Table3D]   0.25   0.42   0.58   0.75   0.92   1.08   1.25   1.42   1.58   1.75   1.92   2.08   2.25   2.42   2.58   2.75   2.92   3.08   3.25       800   16.91   16.91   16.91   17.97   18.32   15.97   11.29   8.073   5.55   4.435   4.26   4.26   4.26   4.26   4.26   4.26   4.26   4.202   3.91       1200   16.91   17.50   19.96   21.66   22.42   21.84   16.56   14.81   12.35   10.59   9.54   8.537   7.07   5.90   5.20   4.97   4.97   4.91   4.61       1600   19.02   23.71   26.99   28.51   28.39   26.46   21.48   19.73   17.03   14.81   13.17   11.71   10.24   9.065   8.363   8.13   8.13   8.072   7.78       2000   26.05   30.74   33.09   34.32   34.02   31.62   27.81   25.47   21.02   18.15   16.92   15.80   13.75   13.17   12.11   11.64   11.06   9.832   9.54       2400   33.09   37.48   39.06   39.06   38.36   36.36   29.92   28.17   24.07   19.91   17.15   15.80   13.75   13.75   12.82   12.18   12.00   11.94   11.64       2800   39.77   40.06   39.65   39.24   38.59   36.84   32.73   29.22   24.53   20.08   17.39   16.45   14.11   13.81   13.28   12.88   12.70   12.7   12.7       3200   40.12   40.70   42.69   42.58   40.70   38.42   35.19   31.39   25.94   20.79   17.62   16.45   14.11   14.11   14.11   13.93   13.63   13.34   13.05       3600   40.12   40.7   42.69   42.75   40.93   38.53   35.90   31.50   25.94   20.79   17.74   16.80   14.46   14.46   14.46   14.29   13.99   13.75   13.75       4000   40.12   40.7   42.69   42.75   40.58   37.37   34.14   31.22   25.94   20.79   17.74   16.80   14.46   14.46   14.46   14.11   13.75   13.75   13.75       4400   40.12   40.7   43.63   44.51   42.11   37.77   34.84   31.32   25.94   20.96   18.09   17.15   14.81   14.81   14.81   14.64   14.34   14.11   14.11       4800   40.12   40.7   43.63   45.04   43.63   39.94   35.55   31.73   26.29   22.72   20.20   17.15   14.81   14.81   14.58   14.29   13.99   13.75   13.75       5200   40.12   40.7   43.63   45.04   44.22   41.70   37.31   32.62   27.46   23.42   20.20   17.15   14.81   14.81   14.58   14.29   14.11   14.11   14.11       5600   40.12   40.7   43.63   45.04   43.99   41.12   37.31   32.33   27.81   23.77   20.20   17.62   17.62   16.75   16.33   16.21   16.21   16.21   16.21       6000   40.12   40.7   43.63   45.04   43.87   41.06   38.71   36.37   28.87   24.30   21.37   17.62   17.62   16.75   16.57   16.57   16.57   16.57   16.57       6400   40.12   40.7   43.63   45.04   45.04   44.45   41.52   40.65   35.55   29.93   25.35   21.96   19.03   19.03   18.80   18.50   18.32   18.32   18.32       6800   40.12   40.7   43.63   45.04   45.04   44.97   44.68   42.05   37.42   31.51   27.11   25.47   22.55   22.40   22.13   21.84   21.55   21.28   21.14       7200   40.12   40.7   43.63   45.04   45.04   44.97   44.68   42.35   37.89   32.04   28.17   27.41   23.60   23.31   23.01   22.72   22.42   22.13   21.84   

[fahr_side]

Never was able to get airboy to work right when I paste timing tables in. Every time I try to recalculate the total timing table, it messes up all the columns (they no longer match)... and I also get a visual basic runtime error.

 

I've tried pasting the table directly from RR which causes the columns to be misaligned, and I've tried first pasting the table into my text editor to fix the tab positions, and THEN pasting it into airboy, and it still gets messed up...

I want to help you but I'm not typing all those values in manually! Can you copy the tables out of RR and paste them into a plain-jane .csv file so I can paste them into airboy? I have a lot of timing tables to pull from and can probably make you a new one by tomorrow.

[iNVAR]

Awe, you don't have to make one up for me. I'd rather try to learn how to do this myself. But here are the tables, should be able to copy and paste from here if you want (really, it's not needed. I wanna give this a go myself. Just need some guidance.)

 

Direct from RR, my base timing

[Table3D]
0.25    0.45    0.65    0.85    1.05    1.25    1.45    1.65    1.85    2.05    2.25    2.45    2.65    2.85    3.05    3.25
700    16.91    16.91    16.56    15.16    8.48    0.74    -3.12    -4.88    -4.88    -4.88    -4.88    -4.88    -4.88    -4.88    -4.88    -5.23
800    16.91    16.91    16.91    17.97    11.99    4.61    -0.66    -3.48    -3.83    -3.83    -3.83    -3.83    -3.83    -3.83    -3.83    -4.18
1200    16.91    17.62    21.13    21.13    17.97    9.88    6.37    3.20    1.80    0.74    -1.02    -2.42    -3.12    -3.12    -3.12    -3.48
1600    19.02    24.65    28.16    27.81    22.54    14.80    11.29    7.77    5.66    3.91    2.15    0.74    0.04    0.04    0.04    -0.31
2000    26.05    31.68    33.79    33.79    27.46    21.13    16.91    10.94    9.18    8.12    5.66    4.96    3.55    3.55    1.80    1.45
2400    33.09    38.36    39.41    37.66    32.73    23.24    19.73    14.10    9.53    8.12    5.66    5.66    4.26    3.91    3.91    3.55
2800    39.77    40.12    39.41    38.36    34.14    27.46    21.84    14.45    9.53    8.83    6.02    5.66    4.96    4.61    4.61    4.61
3200    40.12    40.82    43.63    40.82    35.90    30.62    23.95    15.51    9.88    8.83    6.02    6.02    6.02    5.66    5.31    4.96
3600    40.12    40.82    43.63    41.17    35.90    31.68    26.05    15.51    9.88    9.18    6.37    6.37    6.37    6.02    5.66    5.66
4000    40.12    40.82    43.63    41.17    35.90    32.03    26.76    19.73    9.88    9.18    6.37    6.37    6.37    5.66    5.66    5.66
4400    40.12    40.82    45.04    43.28    36.25    32.73    27.81    19.73    10.23    9.53    6.72    6.72    6.72    6.37    6.02    6.02
4800    40.12    40.82    45.04    44.34    38.71    33.44    28.16    20.08    13.40    9.53    6.72    6.72    6.37    6.02    5.66    5.66
5200    40.12    40.82    45.04    44.34    40.47    35.20    28.87    22.19    13.40    9.53    6.72    6.72    6.37    6.02    6.02    6.02
5600    40.12    40.82    45.04    44.69    40.47    35.20    28.87    22.89    13.40    9.53    9.53    8.48    8.12    8.12    8.12    8.12
6000    40.12    40.82    45.04    44.69    40.12    36.60    33.44    22.89    15.16    9.53    9.53    8.48    8.48    8.48    8.48    8.48
6400    40.12    40.82    45.04    44.69    43.98    40.47    38.36    30.98    18.67    14.45    10.94    10.94    10.59    10.23    10.23    10.23
6600    40.12    40.82    45.04    44.69    43.98    43.63    39.06    32.73    19.02    15.86    13.40    13.40    13.05    12.70    12.34    12.34
7000    40.12    40.82    45.04    44.69    43.98    43.63    39.77    33.79    20.08    20.08    15.51    15.16    14.80    14.45    14.10    13.75

 

Direct from RR, my advance timing

[Table3D]
0.25    0.45    0.65    0.85    1.05    1.25    1.45    1.65    1.85    2.05    2.25    2.45    2.65    2.85    3.05    3.25
700    0.00    0.00    0.00    1.05    4.92    6.68    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
800    0.00    0.00    0.00    1.05    4.92    6.68    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
1200    0.00    0.00    0.00    1.05    4.92    6.68    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
1600    0.00    0.00    0.00    1.05    4.92    6.68    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
2000    0.00    0.00    0.00    1.05    4.92    6.68    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
2400    0.00    0.00    0.00    1.05    4.92    6.68    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
2800    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.70    3.52    5.27    6.68    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
3200    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.70    3.16    4.57    6.68    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
3600    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.70    3.16    4.22    4.57    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
4000    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.70    2.11    2.11    3.87    3.87    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
4400    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.70    2.11    2.11    2.81    3.87    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
4800    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.70    2.11    2.11    2.81    3.87    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
5200    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.70    2.11    2.11    2.81    3.16    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
5600    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.35    1.41    2.11    2.46    3.16    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
6000    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.35    1.41    2.11    2.46    2.46    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
6400    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.35    1.05    1.05    2.11    2.11    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
6600    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.35    1.05    1.05    2.11    2.11    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09
7000    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.35    1.05    1.05    2.11    2.11    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09    8.09

Sort of weird when I pull stuff from RR, because there's not supposed to be a new line after [Table3D], there's really supposed to be a TAB.

[fahr_side]

Bizarre. Something funky in how your Excel is set up? I can copy that into airboy but your rows are all one cell...

[fahr_side]

This should give you a pretty good idea what needs to be fixed. My '05 FXT stg1 map shows between 1 and 3* less total timing through the whole rev range than your car does.

 

Rhetorical question: What good does it do to add timing to a base table if KC is just going to pull it out again?

 

You may not have to pull the whole amount of timing you took off the table once it's smoothed out. Remember the data in the logs is not grabbed in real time. Timing jumping up and down from a lumpy map also aggravates a knock-prone situation. Smooth out by lowering the numbers for the most part but you may raise a spot you lowered before in order to make things look nice and smooth.

 

If you PM me an email address I will send you the airboy sheet I plugged your numbers into to make it easier for you.

[iNVAR]

Thanks so much. This'll have to wait till I get home I guess, still at work. Maybe not even tonight or the next few days. I have a really important exam coming up on Saturday.... I need to stop getting distracted from doing this stuff. I'm gonna fail arghhh.

 

The big question I had was addressed by your post. I pulled timing in a lot of places due to the knock I logged, so when I was smoothing things out, I was really trying hard to NOT exceed the lowest numbers because I was afraid of re-introducing knock.

 

But you're saying it's okay to bump it a bit back up to smooth things out? Hmm...

 

To be continued. I'll post up the CSVs tonight with the numbers.

 

Again, really appreciate this!

[fahr_side]

No worries. Smooth is important. Your timing curve through a pull should look like the inverse of the boost curve... no spikes or sawtooth. You may be able to run a slightly higher number in a given cell if it blends properly.

 

You know that you can import a log file into airboy and see which rpm and rpm cells your total timing ran through eh?

[Sicotic]

Let me ask this, say its -1.40 in 0-1650 rpms 0-<0.85 g/rev area, all i do is go in the base timing and just subtract this from this entire area? Just an example i keep reading and reading and just get most of it but the timing. Or am i completely stupid? (let the harsh talk begin.)

[fahr_side]

Let me ask this, say its -1.40 in 0-1650 rpms 0-<0.85 g/rev area, all i do is go in the base timing and just subtract this from this entire area? Just an example i keep reading and reading and just get most of it but the timing. Or am i completely stupid? (let the harsh talk begin.)

I would not do this. You very rarely have real knock in these low load / rpm areas. It's often just noise or positive boost error at fault. You remove timing it does the same thing. There is no point in lowering the timing in the base map when the knock isn't really knock.

[bmx045]

[Sicotic]

I would not do this. You very rarely have real knock in these low load / rpm areas. It's often just noise or positive boost error at fault. You remove timing it does the same thing. There is no point in lowering the timing in the base map when the knock isn't really knock.

 

That make sense, but in a high load area then i would make the change correct?

[bmx045]

in the corresponding load range, yes. you need to learn how to distinguish real knock and false knock.

[fahr_side]

That make sense, but in a high load area then i would make the change correct?

Yes. Real knock is a little easier to figure out... you lower timing and FBKC or FLKC just disappear. When it's noise or overboost or whatever, the ECU can pull timing until it's bottomed out and it won't make any difference.

 

This is probably worthy of a thread of it's own...

[Sicotic]

ok, i know what shift knock is so thats good lol, ill look into the FBCK and FLKC.

[NSFW]

Let me ask this, say its -1.40 in 0-1650 rpms 0-<0.85 g/rev area, all i do is go in the base timing and just subtract this from this entire area? Just an example i keep reading and reading and just get most of it but the timing. Or am i completely stupid? (let the harsh talk begin.)

 

I don't think it makes much sense to alter the timing in that area, for the same reasons that fahr_side mentioned.

 

But, for loads higher than about 1.0, and RPM higher than about 2500... LV only tells you that the ECU heard knock somewhere within the RPM and load limits of a particular cell. You can use it to get a rough idea of how healthy your tune is, but I generally wouldn't use it to actually make timing adjustments.

 

If you're going to be tuning, you should be logging, and use the data in the logs to make your adjustments. A data log will tell you what the RPM and load was, within a much smaller +/- range.

[Sicotic]

I don't think it makes much sense to alter the timing in that area, for the same reasons that fahr_side mentioned.

 

But, for loads higher than about 1.0, and RPM higher than about 2500... LV only tells you that the ECU heard knock somewhere within the RPM and load limits of a particular cell. You can use it to get a rough idea of how healthy your tune is, but I generally wouldn't use it to actually make timing adjustments.

 

If you're going to be tuning, you should be logging, and use the data in the logs to make your adjustments. A data log will tell you what the RPM and load was, within a much smaller +/- range.

 

I opened my own thread but i had it tuned by a pro now. I still see knock but most is in low load ranges. Also its 26 degrees and 90 oct, so im sure those two have something to do with it.