Avo 380 tubro

[Scooby2.5]

No spin brotha Just the plain facts, if you do some research

 

Hey Paul sorry to hear about you being accused of false advertising.

 

I think some of these uneducated posers are steering business away.

 

I'm not marketing at all, I just know the turbo works and how do I know....

It's in my car and I drive it every day.

 

 

Yes I was being a little sarcastic, but that doesn't beget rudeness.

 

Well that's funny you mention the OP, because until I went and dug up another of his threads, no-one knew he was in a JDM car that probably had a fitment issue.

 

I see very clearly the spin you're attempting here: Criticizing your precious high-dollar turbo is bashing. Attempting to introduce a build around the turbo in which it might face the cheaper competition is leveling the playing field. When this doesn't quite work out, you want to divert back to the question I in fact raised, which is whether or not your favorite turbo will fit the OP's car.

If your AVO isn't shining with a TMIC in place then why push it on the OP who is obviously looking for something that bolts up?

 

IIWY I'd leave the marketing to Paul as he probably knows what to claim and what not to. I was really hoping he'd actually answer this question about fitment since he has so much knowledge of JDM cars but he hasn't seen fit to do anymore than market the turbo. Of course if you want to carry on raving about a turbo that very likely doesn't fit the OP's car then feel free to do so. I just don't see how it helps the OP any.

[fishbone]

I already answered the OP in pm, as the thread has gone so far off track, the train pretty much missed the station and hit Nebraska.

WHAT?!?

AVO380 is still on my list of potential turbos to go with. Something about ball bearing ...

[lieutenantcolumbo]

One more off topic comment won't hurt I suppose.

Haven't ever heard of an AVO dying (not that it's impossible) and they're generally considered more reliable.

Have heard of the many other turbos dying and in cases taking out the engine too.

If you want a Daily Driver (as opposed to in the shop for the third turbo) or intend to keep the car long term, the cost of the AVO is much more reasonable.

[lieutenantcolumbo]

WHAT?!?

AVO380 is still on my list of potential turbos to go with. Something about ball bearing ...

 

Fish, You especially should not go bigger than an AVO380. It only took just over two months to demolish my 5EAT, which had the IPT vb.

[fishbone]

Not bigger. Smaller. BNR 16G. I THINK that is smaller, no? Reliability is my concern.

Anything bigger than an AVO380 would probably spool up on a 5EAT just in time to pull back into the driveway

[Scooby2.5]

If you'd mentioned this at the time, so others could benefit from the info, I'd have dropped the subject right there.

 

He probably didn't want to, heck the (your) first post again was BASHING a perfectly good turbo...

 

I wish there could be some kind of slander lawsuit against people that are saying stuff that isn't true/uninformed, possibly causing others to lose money...

[Scooby2.5]

Yes I was being a little sarcastic, but that doesn't beget rudeness.

 

Well that's funny you mention the OP, because until I went and dug up another of his threads, no-one knew he was in a JDM car that probably had a fitment issue.

 

I see very clearly the spin you're attempting here: Criticizing your precious high-dollar turbo is bashing. Attempting to introduce a build around the turbo in which it might face the cheaper competition is leveling the playing field. When this doesn't quite work out, you want to divert back to the question I in fact raised, which is whether or not your favorite turbo will fit the OP's car.

If your AVO isn't shining with a TMIC in place then why push it on the OP who is obviously looking for something that bolts up?

 

IIWY I'd leave the marketing to Paul as he probably knows what to claim and what not to. I was really hoping he'd actually answer this question about fitment since he has so much knowledge of JDM cars but he hasn't seen fit to do anymore than market the turbo. Of course if you want to carry on raving about a turbo that very likely doesn't fit the OP's car then feel free to do so. I just don't see how it helps the OP any.

 

Go back and read your own posts if you want to talk about rudeness....

 

I was calm at first just posting information, then the sarcasm comes in, once real information was posted. NOTE: There was no response to those posts

 

If you would have read his user name and info at the side of his post you would have known it was a JDM car. I knew right from the beginning, thats why I never answered if it would fit or not.

 

My precious high dollar turbo, that i paid 750 bucks for with 6,000 miles on it.

 

 

Lets see cheaper than competition....Did I read or post somewhere that a TD0620G from Deadbolt is 1795.00 AND IT DOESNT HAVE A BALL BEARING EXPENSIVE CARTRIDGE FROM GARRETT....EHEMMM.

 

Paul does know what to claim, and he is NOT false advertising like you accused him of.

 

I guess, what we need to do is get a moderator to put down a rule like NASIOC in the proven power section that if you are posting a dyno plot you have to list: elevation, temperature, brand of dyno, newer or older style comp wheel, and all associated mods so we are comparing FAIRLY....

[Scooby2.5]

Not bigger. Smaller. BNR 16G. I THINK that is smaller, no? Reliability is my concern.

Anything bigger than an AVO380 would probably spool up on a 5EAT just in time to pull back into the driveway

 

By the way fish I bought that 2008 STI Tranny swap... going in my car end of the month

[Scooby2.5]

One more off topic comment won't hurt I suppose.

Haven't ever heard of an AVO dying (not that it's impossible) and they're generally considered more reliable.

Have heard of the many other turbos dying and in cases taking out the engine too.

If you want a Daily Driver (as opposed to in the shop for the third turbo) or intend to keep the car long term, the cost of the AVO is much more reasonable.

 

157,000 and still going, turbo has 50,000. New built motor, and STI Tranny going in before end of year.......

BUT IM USING THE SAME TURBO, IMAGINE THAT

[fishbone]

You simply can't beat ball-bearing turbos for reliability. The jury is still out imho regarding the hybrids some of us are buying. To dismiss the 380 is very short-sighted.

It was hot shit back in the day, especially amongst us 5EATers when we didn't even have the choice of a VF-52, nevermind HTAs etc. There were a handful of choices.

Some of the responses left me blinking. "Old turbo", inefficient, crappy spool, overrated?

[dr_sharp]

Honestly, I really like threads like this. You guys both make valid points and have posted some dyno charts and links to back up your claims. In the end, I don't think there are enough reputable tunes on the 380 to conclude one way or the other.

 

I will say this: I am more likely to go with AVO than ever simply b/c I hear stories of people going 50k miles with no issue while the list of BNR failures increases seemingly everyday. Used AVO turbos run about the same as a new BNR unit so that's an option I may heavily weigh.

[LittleBlueGT]

I had the first AVO380 on North American soil.

 

Here is a plot from it: (craptastic 91 + 400 cc/min of alky, perrin TMIC, headers, etc....)

 

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/3803rd.jpg

 

 

 

Cliff notes vs my current 68hta:

 

AVO380 boost threshold is about 300 or so rpm later.

AVO380 spools better. That is right, its boost recovery is better once above the boost threshold point. This is due to the bb cartridge. A dyno plot will never show this.

AVO380 makes about 15-20 whp less (all things being equal)

 

The new turbine housing, I have no idea if it helps or not.

 

This was on a non-messed with Mustang (ie: reads 5% lower then COBB's or EFI's):

 

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/Novdyno.jpg

 

I do like the better spooling part (spooling is not rpm it comes on at, but rather the time it takes for the rotating assembly to come up to speed).

 

I also think it is a bit more efficient than the 68HTA, as with a TMIC I had to run a fair bit less timing with the 68HTA. FMIC not so much.

 

Would I buy one now? No, I have other options I like better. Is it worse spooling then a 20G, no, it has a lower boost threshold point then any 20g I have ever been in or tuned or logged.

 

Reliability is top-notch. Depends on your priorities I guess.

[dr_sharp]

Thanks for the post.

 

What whp numbers do you have with the HTA68 now? I thought that HTA68 didn't get into serious business until you fed it E85... and you put down these numbers with the AVO on 91 (and alcy, I see)! I wonder if the 380 could break 400whp with E85 and a solid tune. I haven't seen very many HTA68s break 400whp, even on E85.

 

Although after looking more closely at your first graph, it seems that the 357whp number is erroneous. Realistically, it looks like you hit about 340whp. What's up with the constant tq above 6250rpm?

[Legend]

I do like the better spooling part (spooling is not rpm it comes on at, but rather the time it takes for the rotating assembly to come up to speed).

 

I'll get that right someday. Just keep reminding us.

[LittleBlueGT]

Thanks for the post.

 

What whp numbers do you have with the HTA68 now? I thought that HTA68 didn't get into serious business until you fed it E85... and you put down these numbers with the AVO on 91 (and alcy, I see)! I wonder if the 380 could break 400whp with E85 and a solid tune. I haven't seen very many HTA68s break 400whp, even on E85.

 

Although after looking more closely at your first graph, it seems that the 357whp number is erroneous. Realistically, it looks like you hit about 340whp. What's up with the constant tq above 6250rpm?

 

The whp/wtq should keep falling like the rest of the graph does. That happens with road logs as you push the clutch at the end of the run sometimes.

 

FWIW on a near identical set-up with a VF52 I can only get about 315 whp. AT least the way I use the dyno (and actually measure the tires).

 

The AVO380 is at least 20-35 whp more then a VF52 or any other STI type of turbo. At least with my tuning style and the 20-30 VF__ I have tuned (not counting little LGT turbos).

 

AVO380 with all the options on E85 will never hit 400 whp. I actually don't believe the 400 whp E85 68HTA to be honest.

 

The AVO380 is 15-20 whp less then the 68HTA, maybe only 15 whp less on a TMIC, as it seems to be a less efficient wheel and put more heat in the system, especially if you do high gear runs.

[fahr_side]

2.5 you've proven nothing to me beyond the size of your own ego, and that you love the sound of your own voice.

 

I think it's interesting that most of the positive talk about this turbo is it's longevity, due to it's BB CHRA. Even Paul Hansen talked more about reliability than performance, which is telling. In the smaller frame turbos we already see the 68HTA spools sooner and does higher numbers.

How does the 380 stack up in terms of performance against stock location turbos in the same price range? The are other turbos out there based on Garrett BB cartridges. I don't see outlet style being relevant at this point.

[Scooby2.5]

I have proven nothing to you because you ignore facts.

 

Listen, you started this whole thing in your first post, the second in the thread.

 

When you humble yourself a bit and realize that you shouldnt have been bashing a turbo that you don't have all the facts for then you will grow young padawan.

 

The only Jedi on this turbo since you won't listen to even the sellers comments is

Littlebluegt. He owned the first and researched tuning it more than anyone.

I remember when he was new to this and now helps a lot of people on this board and is intellectually honest about it.

 

You on the other hand started bashing someone's product with no data to back it up.

 

The original poster didn't ask for your opinion on how crappy the turbo is or how paul is not truthful when he posts info about his product.

He asked whether it would fit his JDM legacy

 

Talk about egos you jumped into this thread from the beginning to try to convince a guy asking about AVO380 fitment, that the turbo he was interested in sucks, and acting like you know everything including whether Paul is being honest selling his product.

 

Your guilty of not doing the best research on this particular product like so many others and you can't even admit it, so you attack with more derogatory comments. Oy Vey!

[Scooby2.5]

And the hta68 is rated at 47 lbs so technically a larger turbo.

 

So Littlebluegt what do you think about this TD0620g dyno plot? Seems way high to me at 419/475 with STI TMIC E85 and dynojet dyno

 

http://kcsubaru.com/showthread.php?6374-Elscooby-Tune-Final-Numbers

 

 

Just curious on your opinion.

[fahr_side]

You simply can't beat ball-bearing turbos for reliability. The jury is still out imho regarding the hybrids some of us are buying. To dismiss the 380 is very short-sighted.

It was hot shit back in the day, especially amongst us 5EATers when we didn't even have the choice of a VF-52, nevermind HTAs etc. There were a handful of choices.

Some of the responses left me blinking. "Old turbo", inefficient, crappy spool, overrated?

Yeah, I hear you... but:

 

AVO380 is obviously a bad choice for a 5EAT if you want it to spool in the same week you push the pedal.

 

Granted, the BNR is a new-ish product and more problems could crop up with them. OTOH, the MHI TD05 CHRA is pretty well proven.

 

"Hot shit back in the day" about sums it up. When there were no other stock-type TMIC compatible turbos out there. Now there are stock-outlet choices that give more power and earlier spool (like BNR 68HTA). There are other stock-outlet types so new on the market we hardly know what they will do (Blouch 380XT thru 440XT) but also have proven MHI guts plus new billet wheels.

 

If we are going to be realistic about it, we face the fact that none of these choices are actually going to be used with a stock Subaru intercooler as it's so restrictive at these kind of flow levels it would make no sense. If we are fitting an aftermarket intercooler then the outlet style is no longer an issue so it makes sense to consider STi-style turbos since there are both TMIC and FMIC kits to fit this easily. That opens to door for FP 68HTA for example.

Here's a little something I found while looking for 68HTA plots (not so many on 93)

 

Now we can compare turbos which are in the $2,000 price range new. Since BB CHRA is the biggest selling point of the turbo (not AVO's marketing focuses much on performance) let's compare the AVO to something in that price range shall we?

 

ATP's GT3071R is only $1,895 with an actuator and oil line kit. You have your BB CHRA, Subaru bolt-up fitment, and more power potential for less cost than the AVO.

 

I understand the early-adopters didn't have these choices when they bought in, and they may have emotional attachments to their turbos, but the world has changed since then. To suggest this turbo now is like suggesting gas lighting over HID.

 

To summarize:

 

AVO380 has higher boost threshold than 68HTA but makes less peak power.

AVO380 is the most expensive bolt-up Subaru turbo out there, more $ even than larger BB Garrett-based turbos on the market.

AVO380 is the smallest BB turbo out there on the Subaru flange.

AVO380 has subjectively better boost-recovery (less lag) than turbos of similar power potential.

 

I can see the reliability advantage. There are obviously going to be a minority of owners who will want to pay the price for that. Maybe if AVO could come up with a new billet wheel or something to bring the performance levels up to date without increasing the price further, they would sell more of them.

[Scooby2.5]

Bottom line, if you purchase any turbo with a Garrett BB cartridge it's going to be expensive.

But so was the TD0620g by deadbolt at around 17-1800 and it was journal bearing.

[joeleodee]

Unless you bought it used. By the track record of these cartridges, i'd say that would make a worthy investment. Yes the deadbolt was expensive but that came with a lifetime rebuild warranty (now defunct since they no longer exist) and ported out of the box. I've got access to one so if my Avo turns out to be a "turd" , i'll side with your buddy in the avo bashing.

[fahr_side]

I think the only facts either of you have straight are that the AVO380 costs more than an ATP GT3071R and makes less power than an HTA68.

 

Here's a plot of your sacred cow against an EvoIII 16G. I hoped to find an HTA68 plot but most of those are on E85. Perhaps you will feel this isn't a fair comparison because the 16G is too cheap and unreliable a turbo to compare to yours, isn't BB etc.

 

http://i.imgur.com/JNLNo.png

 

How about we take a look then at the ATPGT3076R which has an assuredly similar Garrett BB center housing as your beloved AVO, but costs less. Since you're going to a FMIC for more performance, let's choose runs on FMICs. The AVO380 in this comparo has the better '09 WRX heads and even an STi intake manifold to help it out. Oops... still doesn't do very well eh?

 

http://i.imgur.com/zAkjt.png

 

Like I said, I can see a market for a turbo that produces power like a 16G (and spools later) and costs more than a GT30R... it's just going to be a fairly exclusive group that goes for this. Maybe you just get off on being able to boast about owning the most expensive Subaru turbo out there. If you can come back with credible dyno plots to show there is more than reliability to had with that money then please do so. I'm certainly not interested in any more marketing fluff or patronizing remarks.

[fishbone]

Actually I don't think the AVO380 is the most expensive. There is also the 420 and 450

[sumfoo1]

I would like to say that I'm betting avo gets a bad rep because they are bolt on and can be installed with minimum mods that this is exactly what has been happening. People put them on nearly stock cars and then dyno them at 18lbs of boost and say this turbo is laggy and makes no power when it makes the same power as any other turbo for that compressor size and mod list would and probably spools late because it's a 400hp turbo on a 330hp car with minimal stage 2 mods and low boost.

 

But since they don't have a 3" inlet or a rotated inlet they are commonly used with stock air boxes with stock maf and stock turbo inlet pipes with no tgv deletes. And I'm betting most are on stock cat backs too. Tuned with off the shelf rallitek tunes.

 

Arent most of the turbos gt28 based ? Meaning they should make that power? The only thing I can see holding them back would be the compressor housing isn't tangential type but niether does the stock ones

[SeeeeeYa]

People who bash the AVO380 are, in my words, ignorant. That doesn't mean stupid, necessarily, but it does mean uninformed and lacking knowledge.

 

My 05 LGT with AVO380 would stomp the living excrement out of anyone posting in this thread, with respect to 0-60 times. That takes spool, friends, spool and power early. Unless you can run successive 0-60 in 4.0 or less go home, now.

 

The AVO380LGT was "made for" the LGT and 5EAT. My IPT 5EAT, and competition torque converter, crushed anything stupid enough to challenge it. At autox off the line, it dopped jaws, taking that honor from the STIs. My posts are here.

 

That doesn't come easily or cheaply, however. Along with the turbo that so many feel is "too expensive" were the correct support mods, not something cheaper "that worked as well." WI/meth et al. The testing and tuning, and use of the setup, cost a new IPT 5EAT and TC. It cost a new rear diff and a rear axle. My best recorded chp according to g/sec was 480, and my highest recorded lb/min was over the 44 advertised by AVO. Any stoplight, any weather, any where, any time, without brake torqueing I could record 4.2-4 0-60. To go quicker, I never asked for more than 3k from the IPT, although it went much higher. Proving I could be even quicker always cost a lot of cash. I didn't need to prove anything anymore.

 

I'm not the only one with an AVO380 that was powerful and quick on these forums either. But it was the 5EAT that made mine so really baad.

 

I love my new WRX. It is a nice strong DD. But it is not even in the same league. And I'm done with breaking things abusing the limits.