Poll: Would you spend $1000 for complete 5EAT TCU programmability?

[ClimberDHexMods]

READ THIS BEFORE VOTING!!!

Thread topic:

 

If you have 5eat, then would you happily spend $1000 to have complete programmability of your Subaru 05-09 5EAT (5-speed automatic transmission)?

 

Conditions to consider before voting:

You would have to cut and crimp or solder many wires in the TCU wiring harness, and you will have to splice or T into others (above driver footwell).

You will have to splice into several wires in the ECU harness (under passenger footwell).

You will probably lose cruise control.

You might lose functionality of your PRND dash console lights.

You might have a Can-Bus error message on your trip mileage display, which you can probably press a button to clear out.

You will need RomRaider or Cobb AP to disable P0700, the transmission CEL code.

You will need a modern Windows Laptop.

You will probably want to install a couple toggle switches and a couple LEDs somewhere in your driver cockpit.

You will have little or no control of your center differential (so it will sit in the OPEN aka UNLOCKED position, and it would be recommended you spend additional $$$ on a center diff controller, or wire in a switch to turn it on/off.

You will also have to wire in a 3-port boost control solenoid, which will dump boost between shifts so you don't blow your trans under heavy power when shifting.

Again, cost for you to pay BEFORE doing this installation, not counting center diff control, would be around $1000.

 

Upside to consider before voting:

You will be able to reprogram EVERYTHING electronically controlled by your 5eat, except you will have only limited control or no control of your center diff lockup feature.

You will be able to:

Change upshift and downship points individually for each gear.

Change line pressure settings, allowing you to determine precise shifting feel and firmness at each level of engine power.

Customize a regular street mode and a Sport Performance mode (like stock).

Have a dyno mode for torque converter lockup on the dyno.

Full range of TCC (torque converter clutch) lockup.

Full manual shift mode, but probably responding a lot quicker than the stock shift buttons.

Tons of flexibility to program darn near anything else in the trans.

Compatible with stock valve body or IPT VB mod.

 

Ask questions if you have deal breaker terms.

 

Goal here is to gauge the viability of this option.

[BAC5.2]

No way.

 

I don't have a 5EAT, but there is absolutely NO way it's worth $1000 to do something with so many negatives.

 

For a quarter of that price, you can probably get a MegaShift to control the 5EAT. I actually believe that Frankster is doing just that in his Buick Bastard.

[ClimberDHexMods]

No way.

 

I don't have a 5EAT, but there is absolutely NO way it's worth $1000 to do something with so many negatives.

 

For a quarter of that price, you can probably get a MegaShift to control the 5EAT. I actually believe that Frankster is doing just that in his Buick Bastard.

 

I see and understand your opinion, and now hear is mine:

Your trans shifts exactly when and how you want it to. That is your normal. My 5eat is the opposite. Its behavior ruins my fun factor. $1000 plus a Center Diff controller may well make the car super fun to drive vs me having to be super careful now about how I shift and how much gas I give it when I shift.

 

Also, it would make the trans a lot more durable without having to spend the same amount on an IPT VB, or do a $4500 race build in some instances. Things to mull over.

[BAC5.2]

Consider this:

 

The GPIO kit from Megasquirt is $235.

The GPIO Shift add-on is $26.

 

A little time to build, and adapt it to the 5EAT, and you have full manual control of the transmission.

 

It shifts when you tell it to shift. It drives how you tell it to drive.

[FocuS]

I have no problem spending the $ for TCU programming but losing Cruise control is a deal breaker for me! I drive long distances far too often...

 

That being said, my '05 5EAT has not been too problematic (knocks on wood vigorously) but I need to shore it up in order to continue building my engine.

 

Suspension, brakes, and looks are basically done....more power is all that remains!

[ClimberDHexMods]

Consider this:

 

The GPIO kit from Megasquirt is $235.

The GPIO Shift add-on is $26.

 

A little time to build, and adapt it to the 5EAT, and you have full manual control of the transmission.

 

It shifts when you tell it to shift. It drives how you tell it to drive.

 

A quick trip over to the MSGPIO forums and you will find I have been very active on those boards. I understand the software and hardware capabilities, through and through, but I also understand the limitations. I personally have recently chosen to abandon MegaShift, as I want certain things it cannot do well. Everyone will have their own definition of 'good enough,' and MSGPIO can make some folks happy. However, it's one thing to say people will like it, and quite another to see almost no one actually using it.

 

I would be happy to discuss the MegaShift controller on this forum if people want to go into it.

 

I want to keep this thread more on target to capture replies from 5eat drivers whom have mods and power and performance expectations that are not being met re the trans. I expect most people to say what Focus said re something like cruise control, but I need to know definitively where the members of this forum stand on actually implementing this possibility.

[ClimberDHexMods]

I have no problem spending the $ for TCU programming but losing Cruise control is a deal breaker for me! I drive long distances far too often...

 

That being said, my '05 5EAT has not been too problematic (knocks on wood vigorously) but I need to shore it up in order to continue building my engine.

 

Suspension, brakes, and looks are basically done....more power is all that remains!

 

I will try hard to get cruise control to work, but it might end up costing another $600 to swap in MT stuff (cluster, ECU, immobilizer antenna?, BIU)?

 

Only time and experimentation will tell.

 

I figure most people will say something like this, but time will tell!

[Gire]

No way.

 

I don't have a 5EAT, but there is absolutely NO way it's worth $1000 to do something with so many negatives.

 

For a quarter of that price, you can probably get a MegaShift to control the 5EAT. I actually believe that Frankster is doing just that in his Buick Bastard.

 

 

+10.

 

This. All of it.

 

I would never spend that kind of dough to make my car so custom it would become a hazard to re-sell it to anyone else.

 

Even if I had the know how and could do all that myself for free, I wouldn't.

 

 

I drive a manual but even if I didn't I'm sure I'd live with my AT how Subaru intended it.

[f1anatic]

No way.

 

I don't have a 5EAT, but there is absolutely NO way it's worth $1000 to do something with so many negatives.

 

For a quarter of that price, you can probably get a MegaShift to control the 5EAT. I actually believe that Frankster is doing just that in his Buick Bastard.

 

 

+100

 

I do not have a 5EAT but I did drop more than 1000$ into my transmission to upgrade to a helical STI front LSD when I frankly could have lived without that upgrade. I can understand the upgrade part of it. But I have NONE of the negatives you talk about and NO negatives at all after mu front diff. upgrade.

 

What you are describing is a series steps back, many irreversible, in overall comfort; functionality; reliability; and even aesthetics in order to gain some functionality. Not to mention you will be entirely responsible to develop, maintain, repair and lastly convince someone who would be buying your car eventually, that it was "for the better".

 

So NO. No upgrade of this kind is worth a second glance to me.

[ClimberDHexMods]

All good points to assess and weigh in to the overall decision for anyone considering this. Anyone who actually drives a 5eat want to weigh in? Similar wiring to an aftermarket stereo sans P&P harness.

 

I personally see it as reversible, except wires will have evidence of having been cut when put back together. Depends on the views of the owner.

 

Purpose of this IS to Increase reliability and durability of the trans, by adapting its behavior to match the increased power of a modded car.

 

Comfort can be dialed in, making shifts butter soft at low load cruise, and very quick at WOT. If I only wanted manual shifting, I would get a manual. But alas some of us have an AT.

 

Aesthetic is purely personal preference. If you are committed to supporting a lot of power through your 5eat, then you must decide how much you do or do not want to have your PRND lights work. I might actually be able to get those to keep working.

 

Functionality would be again the point of this. You could set it properly to just react to what you intuitively would want for gear selection and shift firmness and not worry about hitting the rev limiter, burning clutch packs, needing to downshift 3 times at 35mph to get to good power, etc. That's the whole point. I don't care about emissions or fuel economy. I want it to behave like it should, sporty when I'm on the gas pedal, and still comfortable when I'm off the gas pedal. No jarring or shocking shifts ever UNLESS I decide to be crazy with settings, and anyone can make that choice.

 

In the tuner world, you get laughed at if your car isn't tuned. Stock TCU settings and stock ECU settings are both "inefficient, dangerous for mechanical longevity, not optimized, slow." So before the stock ECU was hacked, putting in a standalone ECU you had to wire up was both taunted and praised, depending whether you wanted to cut wires and lose cruise control or not. I feel as though folks are only focusing on the negatives, without considering the new world opened up to performance enthusiasts by doing exactly this. Of course it's stupid to mess with your car if you don't NEED to, but if you are stuck in a 5eat and are making some good power, and you don't do a manual swap, then this may be the key.

 

Now I know there are 5eat guys making over 350whp (where things start to fail on the 5eat) and I am an E85 tune away from 390whp. You bet someone in this boat is going to see the negatives of 5eat programming as pay to play cost added to the performance crap list along with big-turbo boost threshold, NVH, cutting wires, etc.

[motorbykemike]

i would not be interested due to the cruise control thing & loss of indicator on cluster , other than those 2 .................

 

what exactly are the megashift limitations you are not happy w/?

[ClimberDHexMods]

i would not be interested due to the cruise control thing & loss of indicator on cluster , other than those 2 .................

 

what exactly are the megashift limitations you are not happy w/?

 

Thank you for your input

 

I will not go into great detail in this thread, but I will put a short answer here, and we can start a new thread to talk about it if this is not sufficient to answer your question:

 

MegaShift accomplishes everything you need to control a 5eat. It does so with very basic functionality, and is a dream if you can write code to customize it to have all the features you want.

It has a great feature that lets you output signals to show what gear you are in (a favorite of mine).

 

Downsides:

TCC control is very minimal. Very little adjustability.

Shift solenoids do not have any ramp-up or ramp-down settings when they are activated or deactivated. Straight performance users won't care, but we enjoy it in stock form, an I want it.

There is no differentiation between upshift points and downshift points. It's all one map. There might be a hysteresis setting, but I don't remember seeing it. Personally, I really like the trans to hang onto a single gear when I've decided to start driving hard. It's a preference thing. I am very particular about having the engine deliver a clean sweep of 3500-7000 (such a RUSH), instead of:

floor it, trans shifts and drops gears, RPMs shoot up, 6000-7000, shift, another 6000-7000, shift, another 6000-7000. If you don't care about getting real specific about upshift points being separate from downshift points, MegaShift is fine. Megashift offers a gear window, where say from 60-100mph and 5-15PSI of boost, it will be in 3rd gear. Very simple, gets the job done, not what I want.

There is only one shift setting. There is no separate Regular D and Sport Mode, unlike stock. Unless you want to make a sacrifice of gear optimization in either comfort cruising or racing or both (if you split it down the middle), this is a pain.

Customization of any cool auxiliary functions is limited to your ability to write code.

Edit: another one I almost forgot: It can only reference one load input. So you have to choose between MAP and TPS. But ideally line pressure would be based on MAP, and shift points would be based on TPS. That would feel the most intuitive. If you use a MAP sensor to reference your gear selection map, but you have a boost dump solenoid to reduce power during shifts, then you might find it gear hunting. You would have to account for this somehow.

 

All-in-all MegaShift is a great utility if you know what to expect.

 

These gripes may all sound like little things, but think about it: These points are essential to the feel and the excitement of the transmission! These considerations MAKE the transmission, thus they MAKE the driving experience!

 

So ClimberD why not just use manual mode? Well I do, because auto doesn't work worth piss. But auto mode SHOULD work brilliantly, and all the hardware capability is there.

 

Now lets start a new MegaShift thread if anyone wants to, but either way let's keep this thread on topic. As it stands, Frankster and I are the only two people who have been active in pursuing MegaShift for the 5eat. He hasn't installed it, and I've dropped pursuing it. I will happily help anyone who wants to pursue it (in a different thread) if someone wants.

 

Now just in general, if anyone here has ever conducted primary market research before, please take a moment to remember what a headache it was, and then see what I'm trying to do here. If people will only use Microsoft Windows, and I'm trying to survey Mac users for a MAC computer update, the Windows-only users may have good points, but I really need the focus to be on the Mac customers. I realize Windows is much better, and no one with a Mac would have Mac problems if they switched to Windows, but that's not the point.

[Lucid]

All of my tuning experience has been the 3-pedal flavor. This is my first foray into an AT (due to nerve problems in my back). I'm enjoying the benefits while lamenting the loss of responsiveness and the other performance drawbacks.

 

There will be a point that I'm looking into the tranny options, and I would probably pay 1k for the benefits you have listed.

 

I'm not thrilled about the center diff situation, but that's not a deal breaker. Loss of the console indicator lights and the error code in the trip display (if unable to clear) are undesirable, but I would probably get past that pretty quickly.

 

Loss of cruise would be a non starter right now. I might not feel the same way when I'm a few grand into mods and would really get full benefit from this.

 

I give you props for ambition. I hope you find your market and are really able to develop and refine this.

[ean611]

subscribed.

[hadvw]

Sorry, not in for this level of modification. At least not at the present time. As mentioned elsewhere:

-wife, 2 small kids, full-time job, barely enough time as it is

-this is my DD - I will NOT be cutting any essential wires, etc..

-not too worried about resale - we plan on keeping it until it's finished

 

All I really want is a way to reprogram the TCU so that when I click the shifter, it shifts RIGHT NOW. Reasonably happy with the sport-mode characteristics for bumper-to-bumper traffic. Could be better, but not worth $1k.

 

ClimberD: you sure you don't just want to find a 5MT car, drop in a 6MT and be done with it? :-)

[dease42]

High credit for thinking big... but I doubt this would be on my short-list. The loss of the cruise/dash issues are big (LOVE my cruise control). The idea sounds fantastic, to have that much control, and tune it for daily-driving, and STILL have the ability to kick it up a notch for track days, awesome! However, for the overall balance sheet (positives vs. negatives), including the cost and potential destruction of my transmission, it's still probably a no.

 

In all honesty, if I was going to go to that much trouble, splicing and tuning, I'd probably try a 6MT swap (ok, seriously no, I'd buy a MT, but you get the point).

 

subscribed though.. if you get this working, opinions may change... Good Luck if you try it!

[doccrowley]

I find that I drive my 5EAT in manual mode 90% of the time. I purposely chose the 5EAT after driving 3 other MT subies including 2 XT6's and a 92 Legacy SS that I put 177K on and 2 clutches. After putting an $800 clutch in the 92 (67K) only 2 weeks after buying it I knew I was going to pay to play. Another clutch at 170K ($1200) with 2 new CV's, etc I was very ready for the jump to the 05OBXT 5EAT that I just loved driving and paddle shifting. I loved the ability to not be on the clutch all the time, yet drive manual mode at certain times.

 

Was ready to purchase the 05OBXT when the salesman told me to drive the 06LEGGT wagon demo that had just come in if I wanted the cornering of a BMW with AWD subie performance. I was sold the moment I drove the first freeway offramp at about 80mph!

 

I personally won't spend the $1000 for full control over the tranny for these reasons: I'll save the $1000 for tranny rebuild when the time comes

I'll never put in the time to fine-tune and program every detail you mention

I prefer a plug and play type set-up, set it and forget it

too many losses projected, or rather, too many maybe's are listed so far

 

I am currently as close to stage 3 as I can get without the turbo in hand to be installed, (82K and zero shaft play at this point) and all the supporting mods are in the car except turbo. I've driven it like I stole it since 6K when I got it, Open Source tune at 19PSI for the past year, 11 track events in the past year.

 

Full synth changeover at Open Source tune time to Rotella oil, Redline front diff, Royal Purple N/S rear diff and Amsoil Universal ATF.

 

I'm not interested at this point in $1000 for a bunch of maybes and a ton of set-up time behind the laptop on my end.

[Seth1784]

ok some good and some bad here...

 

good... the line pressure would kick ass to be able to adjust, also would be neat to be able to control the torque converter like you said to lock it up if you were racing or whatever that would be very cool. the best part would be making the shifts faster, 1st gear is horrible... i mean hell to get a 6500 shift you've gotta push the thing at some where near 5000. 1500 climb is just terrible, even told my local dealer that and nothing ever came of it.

 

bad... cruise is an ouch... if i go anywhere i have a solid hour of driving most of the time, so that would suck... also if i do a few more road trips like i'd like to then well lol! yea that would really blow. tuning... this i kind of question, i mean who will be able to tune this the way we'd want? i know i sure wouldn't trust myself to do any of this for fear of royally muckin up everything.

 

questionable... would be how complicated this could end up becoming. the center dif thing i'm not sure what to think about there.

 

questions... what does this 1000 dollars get you in reality here other then the program? perks of this over the full on build since after you do the boost controller and the center diff controller you're almost half way to a full auto build.

 

i voted no since for the way i drive it's not worth it to me yet. however things could change in my mind after knowing some other answers.

[motorbykemike]

climber , i see what you mean about megashift , have you investigated powertrain control systems products ?

[lieutenantcolumbo]

For that kind of money I would want something less complicated, with fewer comprises, and in a more elegant package, something like an A/P or piggyback device. As others have said the proposed solution would make resale difficult and I think all maintenance and problem solving going forward would have to be assumed 100% by the owner. Most people want something simple, set and forget.....automatic.

 

Overall I'm pretty happy w/ the trans after the TransGo kit, but there's always room for improvement and I would still like to see less of a lag when using the manual mode (i.e. instant shift).

[ClimberDHexMods]

climber , i see what you mean about megashift , have you investigated powertrain control systems products ?

 

Yes I have the entire PCS controller software programming already setup for a 5eat. I just need to put in a couple hours doing screen recording aka ghetto logging with FreeSSM to figure out the solenoid ramp angles and exact current for a baseline, stuff like that. I also need to figure out the center diff. There should be provisions in PCS to run a stepper motor, but I do not see that option... Worst comes to worst I call Spider, and I will have a center diff similar to an STi

 

If/when I pull the trigger, I will try to trick the stock TCU into thinking it still runs the car. I HOPE that the cruise control and TCU logic are separated just enough that I can retain ALL cabin displays and functionality, including cruise control. But we will see. The torque-down switch via CAN from TCU to ECU throws a wrench in everything. My mission is to solve the problem, achieve a "80% fix" as Michael May says.

Purpose of this thread was to see if all my R&D could be turned into a very small passion business, in the form of me writing up detailed installation instructions and distributing base maps and providing support since I have learned the control logic to a significant level. In short, making it so that anyone of us with a crimping tool could have exact instructions, do the wiring on a Saturday, and be driving with a proven base map on Sunday, no custom tuning or guess-and-check required just to maybe be able to limp to work on Monday, but instead full Plug & play software and confirmed wiring with easy instructions that you or a professional audio installer for that matter could replicate.

 

I have an entrepreneurial background (granted a short one), and my dream is to apply that potential to the aftermarket, where my heart is. But probably not with this device.

 

This thread has been a huge eye opener to the viability of scaling this project. I now understand the user requirements, and I better understand the 5eat community (this alone was completely worth it). It doesn't look like this particular project will ever get off the ground, but I may still rock it and help the 1 or 2 other forum members install it for free if it indeed never goes viral like the IPT VB did.

 

It's funny if you think about it; this costs the same as the IPT VB, it would accomplish the same or a better high performance improvement and SO MUCH MORE. But consumers think a certain way and want certain things, and I was not aware of it really until seeing what this thread had to say.

 

IMO, this thread is a win on all levels.

[fishbone]

If this was a race purpose Legacy with a roll-cage and gutted interior, I would have voted yes. As it stands I don't even like the idea of the trip computer being inaccurate if I go larger injectors. We are talking about sacrificing a lot of factory options for very little gain, for a lot of money.

I am afraid this question is akin to should I turbo my 2.5i or trade it in for an LGT.

IMHO if one is contemplating that price tag and pain in the ass because they dislike the behavior of the 5EAT that much, they are in the wrong car.

[underground000]

Center diff open

 

The way our 5eats work. This would mean the car will stay in 45/55 mode and will not go into 50/50

*There is only 2 operating modes for the center diff

 

This can be a plus

[fishbone]

^Not sure what you mean. Torque is actively sent front/back based on conditions. If you are braking, it goes forward. If you are accelerating it goes to the rear. You do not have to have slip for this to occur. It sounds like the center diff is being made dumber? We have an active awd. Why make it passive?

[cipher_nemo]

Conditions to consider before voting:

You will probably lose cruise control.

You might lose functionality of your PRND dash console lights.

You might have a Can-Bus error message on your trip mileage display, which you can probably press a button to clear out.

You will have little or no control of your center differential (so it will sit in the OPEN aka UNLOCKED position, and it would be recommended you spend additional $$$ on a center diff controller, or wire in a switch to turn it on/off.

 

That sort of breaks it for me. However, I don't have a 5EAT, I have a CVT from the 5th gens, so it doesn't apply to me anyways. I'd love control over my CVT, but losing functionality for cruise control, dash lights, etc. would be a show-stopper. (also, I don't have a LGT, so the boost doesn't apply)

 

But, I would spend a grand for control over my TCU without these items. I don't mind splicing cables, voiding warranties, etc.