Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and DW750s

[LittleBlueGT]

You mind posting your target throttle settings?

 

mine or suby shop?

[Ridgeracer]

Ahh.. E85..

 

Woww.....nuff said....lol

[j255c]

mine or suby shop?

 

Franz, subyshop.

[SubyShop.com]

raw data:

 

0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992
0,28.5703,57.1406,85.7109,114.281,142.852,171.43,200,228.57,257.141,285.711,314.281,342.852,371.422,399.992

[j255c]

thanks.

[Ruby Red Rocket]

(rant: I have been avoiding saying this for some time, but there are a whole bunch of mods that vendors [like Grimmspeed, who does have nice products] say increases whp by 10 whp or so, and they DO NOT!!!!!!! They run before and after dyno plots at the same psi/AFR/timing and show a 10 whp increase. I believe the car gained 10 whp, but it is misleading. If the turbo was being maxxed out before, the car would not have gained 10 whp. All the mods did was make the whole thing more efficient, and change slightly where in the comp range the turbo now is running. If the turbo was pushing the best it could before the changes, then the overall MRP would drop and the MAF would stay the same. I even believe this is true for EWG. I was suppose to run a full write-up on the GS EWG, but didn't cause it would make them look bad [and I like GS]. It made boost control great, but my turbo didn't flow anymore air. Even on my HTA68, I have run it on IWG [disconnected EWG, and put IWG actuator back in] and say very little increase in flow, just had to go to a higher psi [previously unattainable] to get it. I think bigger turbos may benefit more from things like TGVs, inlet, and EWG, but anything sub 50 lb/min is gonna be a very small change. [many tuners I have spoken with agree with me on this, especially the ones that are not trying to sell anything])

 

****

The tuner I'm planning on working with in CT (Chris at EFI) gave me this same advice regarding EWG, TGV's, and inlet. Funny how these myths get propagated. Thanks Little Blue for being so bold as to point out what the vendors almost never do.

 

Forgive me if this is thread jacking, and one of your upgrades about which there is not agreement (that you didn't mention in your rant or elsewhere) is headers. I think you have the Perrin ELH? I read that Subie owners generally love what the Perrins do for power across the band, but there is the ever present worry of cracking (at the welds--from heat? from power?). How essential do you feel they are to the power you've produced? Plus, if stainless steel headers crack, can they be fixed? How do you suppose a good ceramic coating would affect them (make them more or less prone to cracking)? Would better motor mounts (like Group N) reduce the cracking threat? John

[LittleBlueGT]

My theory (ever evolving on headers).

 

ELH spool the best, the perrins definitely helped with spool. Even the ULEH headers I had on my car helped with spool IMO, as my dyno charts all spooled better then the ones Rallitek posts (AVO380 days).

 

I really don't think they add a whole bunch as far as overall power goes. Look at my thread about WBR headers vs iON UELH. Overall airlfow was not much different, just the psi I saw it at was different.

 

I also know that headers do no last forever. My iONs were coated, then eventually wrapped. They lasted for about 3 years, then had a small crack. I sold them to a local guy, he welded them up and is still using them.

 

No doubt that headers help your car flow air better, but the limiting factor is really the snail on the end of it.

 

I fell the car revs nicer and smoother with them, and I also feel that it helps with EGTs, especially on prolonged WOT use (track days, etc...).

 

That said, they don't last forever. They are not as bad as some people say, most manufacturers have solved many of the earlier problems with cracking, but they will not last as long as them OEM manifolds, cept maybe FR ones.

 

For me it is a worthwhile mod, but you have to wrap to not lose spool. Many tuners put the headers on their own cars, that should tell you something.

 

For you casual everyday stage2'er, I don't go out of my way to recommend them anymore. For the guy that is willing to spend more to gain a small advantage I do.

[NSFW]

(rant: I have been avoiding saying this for some time, but there are a whole bunch of mods that vendors [like Grimmspeed, who does have nice products] say increases whp by 10 whp or so, and they DO NOT!!!!!!! They run before and after dyno plots at the same psi/AFR/timing and show a 10 whp increase. I believe the car gained 10 whp, but it is misleading. If the turbo was being maxxed out before, the car would not have gained 10 whp. All the mods did was make the whole thing more efficient, and change slightly where in the comp range the turbo now is running. If the turbo was pushing the best it could before the changes, then the overall MRP would drop and the MAF would stay the same.

 

The ECU will try to keep MRP the same by adding WGDC though, so you should see more MAF in many cases. However, my view is even more cynical than yours.

 

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z151/Legacy_NSFW/Dyno%20Charts/2009-08-25-1.jpg

 

What did we change between the highest and lowest runs? Nothing, really.

 

Just before the highest run, we spent a few minutes talking. So, the car cooled down more prior to than run than previous runs.

 

Variation from run to run is quite wide, so it is very easy to claim that any upgrade gained a few hp. Any dyno chart that claims to show gains that fall within the range you see above is probably worthless. The people who created the chart might actually believe it themselves, so I won't call them liars, but I will say that very few people on car forums have any idea how to do experiments, interpret results, or draw conclusions.

[Legend]

Variation from run to run is quite wide, so it is very easy to claim that any upgrade gained a few hp. Any dyno chart that claims to show gains that fall within the range you see above is probably worthless. The people who created the chart might actually believe it themselves, so I won't call them liars, but I will say that very few people on car forums have any idea how to do experiments, interpret results, or draw conclusions.

 

Yes sir. Consider enthusiast's dyno pull from last week. He gained 12whp and alot of torque on his 2nd pull. Wanna know what he changed? Nothing! It was presumably just a matter of heating up the headers/turbo after the first pull. As for he third pull, which fell back down.. that could be due to heat soak on his stock TMIC.

 

http://verticaltier.com/images/misc_posts/dyno_enthusiast.jpg

[Ruby Red Rocket]

.....They are not as bad as some people say, most manufacturers have solved many of the earlier problems with cracking, but they will not last as long as them OEM manifolds, cept maybe FR ones.

 

*******

 

I had not known about Full Race before your reference. I checked em out. OH YEAH, want that! Boy, that's some fine engineering work. FR doesn't say, and are these equal or unequal length? (Course, does it matter considering what they do?) Just HMOG, and thanks for pointing in their direction.

 

Speaking of what they do, the direction the thread's gone, the need to make valid interpretations of data (whether graphed or anecdotal), I couldn't agree more. I work in the "behavioral sciences". Trust me, failing to interpret experimental results fairly (i.e., seeing what's valid) is at the center of much senseless debate. The need to rule out potential controlling variables other than the one you're studying (other wise known as "confounds") is at the heart of why there is so much junk science and why we end up thinking, believing, and fighting for so much truly stupid (and ultimately ineffective) stuff in education, the economy, health care, use of energy, and politics.

 

That's my rant...John

PS--What's the data say about meth injection?

[LittleBlueGT]

What's the data say about meth injection?

 

Meth is flat out awesome! For me it allows about 6-7 degrees more timing, and WBO2 observed AFRs of 11.7-12:1 vs 10.8:1.

 

It is suppose to go above freezing here for one day, and if I have time I will turn the alky on and have some fun. it will be nice to see TMIC pump vs alky, and then FMIC pump vs alky.

[Ruby Red Rocket]

Hey Little Blue

My ignorance is gonna shine on this one ...If meth is one hot ticket, how does water injection compare? (I mean, they are different, right?) And with meth, do you have concerns with the injection unit malfunctioning or runnning dry? Do you run some sort of safeguard for unforeseen failures?

 

Also, any experience with the MadDad ELH for power and durability? (I understand that they the same product as Tomei.)

 

many tnx RRR

[LittleBlueGT]

Hey Little Blue

My ignorance is gonna shine on this one ...If meth is one hot ticket, how does water injection compare? (I mean, they are different, right?) And with meth, do you have concerns with the injection unit malfunctioning or runnning dry? Do you run some sort of safeguard for unforeseen failures?

 

Also, any experience with the MadDad ELH for power and durability? (I understand that they the same product as Tomei.)

 

many tnx RRR

 

Very few people run 100% methanol injection, most do a mixture of water and meth. I use a 50/50 mix. When most say water injection (WI) they mean the mix, and when most say meth they mean the mix.

 

Can't really inject just water if temps get below 0C, and 100% meth is flammable. There are some very good stickies on the subject in other forums.

 

My current failsafe is cutting boost to WG boost if the flow sensor detects flow out of range.

 

My new failsafe will be the ultimate. Stay tuned! (end of Feb)

[Ridgeracer]

LBGT....I finally got around to installing my 68hta and replacing my turbo inlet. I ran into a problem with the PCV line with that test connector. Unknown to me at the time, the 08-09 LGT inlet are not a 100% derect fit with an 05.. Hey tell me something. Is that line from the pvc plumbed back in on an aftermarket inlet?

[LittleBlueGT]

LBGT....I finally got around to installing my 68hta and replacing my turbo inlet. I ran into a problem with the PCV line with that test connector. Unknown to me at the time, the 08-09 LGT inlet are not a 100% derect fit with an 05.. Hey tell me something. Is that line from the pvc plumbed back in on an aftermarket inlet?

 

 

I have the APS inlet. So all those lines are slightly custom (as the APS unit was not designed for the LGT) and it was a PITA!

[Ridgeracer]

So you did plumb back the PVC line with the test conn.?

[LittleBlueGT]

So you did plumb back the PVC line with the test conn.?

 

I don't know what you mean by "test conn".

[Ridgeracer]

In the manual they said its used for leak detection. There is a two wire connector on it. Its grey in color. In the pic below, its on line #9 points to.

 

Update...I found a Perrin turbo inlet install pdf with pics and I figured out what I need to do. Will just remove the L shaped hose with the grey connector completely. Put the jumper in the electrical connector for it, then get a length of hose to go from the inlet to the PCV...Kinda hard to think straight pulling a turbo and inlet in your backyard in 40 deg weather...

[LittleBlueGT]

So you did plumb back the PVC line with the test conn.?

 

 

I get it.

 

The answer is yes, Everything is essentially like factory, just rerouted a bit.

[Ridgeracer]

My head hurts for working this thing all day. Off the top of your head, do you remember the size of the connection for the vacuum line on the PCV side(opposite end of the grey connector)? 3/8 or 1/2?

[LittleBlueGT]

My head hurts for working this thing all day. Off the top of your head, do you remember the size of the connection for the vacuum line on the PCV side(opposite end of the grey connector)? 3/8 or 1/2?

 

Sorry man, it has been over a year.

[NSFW]

I think 3/8, but it's been months.

[ClimberDHexMods]

ditto, 3/8 is my bet too, but it's been 8 months for me...

 

Edit: And I'm wrong!

[Ridgeracer]

Naw 1/2 fit perfect but my idle is shit now. I think my MAF might have died. Please see my thread...

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129044

[ClimberDHexMods]

Naw 1/2 fit perfect but my idle is shit now. I think my MAF might have died. Please see my thread...

 

Can you edit your above post with a link to it?