Edmunds first drive of 2010 LGT - They love it!

[GTTuner]

I can't wait for the first member here with the 2010 model. Very amusing thread I might say but I feel like everyone is panicing about the earthquake that is suppose to hit Cali but no one knows when. I hope we revive this thread after we all actually drive one.

 

Just blind fold me until I get behind the wheel so I don't puke at the sight of the headlights.

Meanwhile, I'll be looking for a Ruby red 09' MT to pickle away for when my daughter gets my 05 in three years.

[dtmenace]

...it's a nominal difference in hp and in N.America 265hp is class competitive.

 

not my point, but ok ...

 

i think it's ridiculous that soa thinks it's ok to use a 5 y/o powertrain for jdm production & even more ridiculous that they are using, what sounds like, the same block from last year's wrx for their GT car. the one thing they have confirmed for me is that GT doesn't translate to japanese.

[camber]

With *every* new release of a car Subaru claims the engine sits lower Frakking marketing crap. It's damn freaking low already. Without compromising ground clearance it ain't going any lower.

 

+1

 

If its lowered. it can probably be measured in under 5 millimeters.

[rao]

You guys aren't considering the newly designed oil pan I bet it is 4 or 5 inches lower.

[The B4]

With *every* new release of a car Subaru claims the engine sits lower Frakking marketing crap. It's damn freaking low already. Without compromising ground clearance it ain't going any lower.

 

you just can't help yourself can you? If you don't have something to troll about you make it up. The 2005 Legacy dropped the engine .8" over the previous gen. With the new car and a new cradle, who knows how much it's been lowered. I imagine the engineers have a lot of pride in how low they can get the engine because they can. Anything that gets done would be good to offset the height increase.

[The B4]

Why do we have to rehash things that we've gone over a billion times?

 

It's not nominal actually. 265 is class competitive for a Camry or accord V6 and not a "sports sedan"

 

 

We've been over this. Just because a car has oodles of power doesn't mean you're getting the whole story. The BL is competitive performance wise with the current G37. The new car with Summer tires, more power, and possibly minimal weight gains should even more so. Every Subaru, naturally aspirated or otherwise, with the exception of the STI is underated in power. Just like the 2004/2005 Forester XT was beating the snot out of higher powered WRX's. Subaru changed the turbo and made other changes to the drivetrain in the LGT over it's life. You're telling me power stayed exactly the same on the button? Whatever # is attached to the HP and Torque doesn't mean diddley squat to me until i see dyno numbers and test results.

 

2009 G37 Sedan

C/D TEST RESULTS:

Curb weight: 3703 lb

Zero to 60 mph: 5.2 sec

Zero to 100 mph: 12.8 sec

Zero to 130 mph: 23.3 sec

Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.2 sec

Standing ¼-mile: 13.8 sec @ 104 mph

Top speed (governor limited): 156 mph

Braking, 70–0 mph: 160 ft

Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.89 g

FUEL ECONOMY:

EPA city/highway driving: 17/25 mpg

 

2007 LGT Sedan

C/D TEST RESULTS:

Curb weight: 3417 lb

Zero to 60 mph: 5.3 sec

Zero to 100 mph: 14.9 sec

Zero to 130 mph: 30.6 sec

Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.8 sec

Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @ 97 mph

Top speed (governor limited): 136 mph

Braking, 70-0 mph: 195 ft

Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.83 g

 

By magazine racing... 306 HP doesn't seem to stand for much when your car is a fat pig.

 

Considering the power increase, negligible weight increase, and summer tires... it looks like the 2010 LGT with it's measly 265 HP WILL be competitive with the G37. Let's not even mention the even fatter G37X

The 16 may sound nominal but it isn't when you are trying to differentiate yourself from competitors..oh wait, maybe you I mean SOA isn't.

 

Please explain how it makes sense to you that the WRX has the same engine and hp as the Legacy GT

 

and it would be good to look at other cars in your comparison like the Genesis, CTS, G37, Passat and others that make 280hp or more since you are now comparing to the A4 and 3 series BMW

 

and this one has been answered already as well...

 

Most companies don't have WRX equivalents.

 

Cobalt SS doesn't have a Malibu equivalent and makes more power than any engine in the Malibu lineup

 

SRT-4 doesn't have an Avenger equivalent and makes more power than any engine in the Avenger Lineup

 

Mazdaspeed3 has 11 less hp but 11 more lbs/ft torque

 

the Civic SI, Sentra SE-R, and GTI are weak sauce and don't have the power.

 

So there's nothing out of the ordinary here at all. Who out there even makes a Legacy GT performance equivalent that isn't a luxury brand? Mazda tried and couldn't make it work. Toyota and Honda don't. The Altima SE-R doesn't exist anymore. Malibu? Volkswagen? Bueller?

 

The LGT's new engine makes the same HP as the WRX but with more torque. And those numbers don't mean anything with Subaru other than marketing clout. We all know how arbitrary Subaru's power ratings seem to be.

 

And who knows about a more powerful Legacy. We've heard rumblings about turboed H6's running around. I wouldn't expect for something like that to show up out of the gates anyway. Everyone knew there'd be an STI Impreza and it still bowed later than the rest of the lineup the last go around.

 

If the LGT doesn't have enough power... there's nothing stopping them from adding more next year. Tribeca and WRX revamps speak to that pretty well.

[Guest]

you just can't help yourself can you? If you don't have something to troll about you make it up. The 2005 Legacy dropped the engine .8" over the previous gen. With the new car and a new cradle, who knows how much it's been lowered. I imagine the engineers have a lot of pride in how low they can get the engine because they can. Anything that gets done would be good to offset the height increase.

 

Dude, if you ever crawled under the car for a change instead spewing your crap in News & Rumors section exclusively, you would realize there is not much room for lowering the engine regardless of to what is mounted to. There is oil pan and exhaust manifold, which would have to be somehow flattened to make room for lowering the engine. Short of going to dry sump the engine is not going lower by any significant amount, period.

 

Now, I'll give you tip to your unpaid pseduo marketing trolling - the new car surely locates the engine lower with respect to the roof line!

[Syndicate]

Please explain how it makes sense to you that the WRX has the same engine and hp as the Legacy GT

 

...the same way the 135i and 335i use the same motor, the same way that Mazda uses the DISI 4 in the Mazdaspeed 3, CX7, and once in the Mazdaspeed 6. The same way that Toyota uses the same motor in the IS350 and GS350. VW is also guilty of sharing the 2.0T w/the A3, GTI, and Passat. By your logic the worst offender would be Nissan having only what maybe two variations of the VQ to spread around both the regular Nissan and Infiniti lines differentiated by mild tuning and reving capabilities.

 

...engine sharing isn't uncommon and there isn't anything wrong with it. The WRX and '10 motors while similar are different, namely in turbo placement.

 

...it would be good to look at other cars in your comparison like the Genesis, CTS, G37, Passat and others that make 280hp or more since you are now comparing to the A4 and 3 series BMW

 

...well no, not really...but I'll entertain your request. I mentioned the A4, 3-Series, and G3x b/c you brought up sport sedans and they are perhaps the finest true examples of the class.

 

...the Legacy isn't a Genesis competitor, no sports sedan is so that was just...well silly. The Passat being squarely in the aim of the the '10 is outgunned in power and handling and would have to rely on superior fit and finish and DSG transmission for '10 to remain comptetitive. Oh yeah, the Passat uses the 2.0T mill which is only 200hp, a fantastic motor though. The CTS occupies a slightly different class than the Legacy, while a sports sedan it's sort of stuck between the 3-series and 5-series now...not likely cross shopped w/the Legacy imo.

 

...so back to power, the '10 clearly has more than offerings like the 328i and A4. A size, price, and power rating comparable to the V6 Camry, Accord, Altima, and 6. While likely offering acceleration more in line w/the G37 even though it makes less power. That's a middle ground I believe that I can live with.

[Viber]

Interesting.

 

I've always thought Lexus had the best factory sound system with Mark Levinson. It's miles ahead of BMW's Logic-7.

 

Audi's Bang & Olufsen rig sucks for the price. Bose does a much better job for Infiniti and Mazda

 

One of the Legacy's talking points since its third generation landed in 1998 has been the option of a McIntosh sound system, arguably the best in-car sound system in the world, we think. The revamped McIntosh audio unit is matched with 10 speakers and 5.1 surround sound, while the 40GB hard drive is capable of storing 2,000 MP3 songs. The system will now even play DVDs and it's compatible with iPod, MP3 and WMA files.

[The B4]

Dude, if you ever crawled under the car for a change instead spewing your crap in News & Rumors section exclusively, you would realize there is not much room for lowering the engine regardless of to what is mounted to. There is oil pan and exhaust manifold, which would have to be somehow flattened to make room for lowering the engine. Short of going to dry sump the engine is not going lower by any significant amount, period.

 

Now, I'll give you tip to your unpaid pseduo marketing trolling - the new car surely locates the engine lower with respect to the roof line!

 

 

Unless you've measured to the millimeter yourself... your "there's no room" is your opinion. A word to the contrary from you is unqualified trolling. Even if it's been lowered only .2", that'd make it a full 1" lower than the 3rd generation Legacy.

[Guest heightsgtltd]

...the same way the 135i and 335i use the same motor, the same way that Mazda uses the DISI 4 in the Mazdaspeed 3, CX7, and once in the Mazdaspeed 6. The same way that Toyota uses the same motor in the IS350 and GS350. VW is also guilty of sharing the 2.0T w/the A3, GTI, and Passat. By your logic the worst offender would be Nissan having only what maybe two variations of the VQ to spread around both the regular Nissan and Infiniti lines differentiated by mild tuning and reving capabilities.

 

...engine sharing isn't uncommon and there isn't anything wrong with it. The WRX and '10 motors while similar are different, namely in turbo placement.

 

 

 

...well no, not really...but I'll entertain your request. I mentioned the A4, 3-Series, and G3x b/c you brought up sport sedans and they are perhaps the finest true examples of the class.

 

...the Legacy isn't a Genesis competitor, no sports sedan is so that was just...well silly. The Passat being squarely in the aim of the the '10 is outgunned in power and handling and would have to rely on superior fit and finish and DSG transmission for '10 to remain comptetitive. Oh yeah, the Passat uses the 2.0T mill which is only 200hp, a fantastic motor though. The CTS occupies a slightly different class than the Legacy, while a sports sedan it's sort of stuck between the 3-series and 5-series now...not likely cross shopped w/the Legacy imo.

 

...so back to power, the '10 clearly has more than offerings like the 328i and A4. A size, price, and power rating comparable to the V6 Camry, Accord, Altima, and 6. While likely offering acceleration more in line w/the G37 even though it makes less power. That's a middle ground I believe that I can live with.

 

You really need to come clean on working for SOA dude, this is just getting ridiculous.

 

Let's go through each of your points.

 

1. The TT engine in the 1 series is the top of the line engine, but it's not the top of the line for the 3 series. That would be the M3, see the difference? This same point applies to your analogy with the IS, the passat, and A4. Legacy has no model that elevates it power-wise above like all the other companies. In fact, the STI which is an econobox has the most power in the entire line. See if you can find another company with that as the example...

 

 

2. The VQ is an engine that is shared between certain mid to high-end models, but you don't see it on a versa now do you?

 

3. I love how you, SOA, seem to completely discount what people cross-shop with cars. It's actually why you have cars that sell so poorly. People would absolutely cross-shop a Genesis V6, CTS, G37, A4, 3 series with the Legacy...er they did as evidenced by what people have posted here time and time again but most likely will not with the 2010 craptastic model you have brought over here. You might want to get up to speed on car reviews, what people cross-shop etc.

 

4. You keep offering the example of the 328, and yet ignore what people say about it. It HANDLES so well that people don't care that it has less power than the Legacy GT, AND, it is the lower-end engine of the line. There is a 335i that people have the CHOICE to buy instead. The A4 has the 2.0t, but also has the 3.2 engine. For that matter, the new Legacy GT can't even remotely compare with Audi or BMW on interior designs, materials, etc. The current gen represented an interesting cheaper alternative to these cars..not anymore.

 

5. The avg. buyer doesn't care about the differences in turbo placement between the WRX and the GT, they care about the fact that they have the same power which is ridiculous

 

6. I have a strong feeling you and your buddies at SOA will be seriously reconsidering using the Camry and Accord as benchmarks for the Legacy GT at this time next year...

[Guest heightsgtltd]

Why do we have to rehash things that we've gone over a billion times?

 

 

 

 

We've been over this. Just because a car has oodles of power doesn't mean you're getting the whole story. The BL is competitive performance wise with the current G37. The new car with Summer tires, more power, and possibly minimal weight gains should even more so. Every Subaru, naturally aspirated or otherwise, with the exception of the STI is underated in power. Just like the 2004/2005 Forester XT was beating the snot out of higher powered WRX's. Subaru changed the turbo and made other changes to the drivetrain in the LGT over it's life. You're telling me power stayed exactly the same on the button? Whatever # is attached to the HP and Torque doesn't mean diddley squat to me until i see dyno numbers and test results.

 

 

 

and this one has been answered already as well...

 

Oh B4, I really feel sorry for you.

 

No one is disputing that the new car may be fast, the issue is what it is offering over previous generations. Apparently SOA is content with offering the same or worse performance, features, design and not moving forward..

 

The proof will be in the pudding, lets see what reviews say (I would venture this one said a lot about what the USDM wont be) and what sales are like for the new one vs. current

 

I'll give you a short marketing lesson. The reason that cars like BMW and Audi are successful has to do with offering what people want on multiple levels.

 

Merely offering a quick 0-60 time isn't enough This isn't a WRX

[captainhook]

It's kinda irrelevant how fast the GT may or may not be if the car isn't around in 2-3 years. I was at the dealership when the 2010 rolled into the showroom and spent about 20 minutes discussing the new car with the sales manager. He told me flat out that the redesign was aimed towards the 40+ year old market, and he doesn't expect the GT production to last more than 2-3 years. Like he said, in that age bracket people are looking for fuel economy (the NA4) or broad silky smooth power (the NA6). They're fully expecting the bottom to fall out of the GT sales.

[PhilT]

We've been over this. Just because a car has oodles of power doesn't mean you're getting the whole story. The BL is competitive performance wise with the current G37. The new car with Summer tires, more power, and possibly minimal weight gains should even more so. Every Subaru, naturally aspirated or otherwise, with the exception of the STI is underated in power. Just like the 2004/2005 Forester XT was beating the snot out of higher powered WRX's. Subaru changed the turbo and made other changes to the drivetrain in the LGT over it's life. You're telling me power stayed exactly the same on the button? Whatever # is attached to the HP and Torque doesn't mean diddley squat to me until i see dyno numbers and test results.

 

and this one has been answered already as well...

 

Since when has being modest ever worked when you are trying to sell something ??

 

The average Joe (or Joanne) is going to look at the figures and decide which car to go look at. I bet Hyundai sell more of their new Genesis sedan, and you know why ?

 

POwaaaaar !!

[rao]

 

No one is disputing that the new car may be fast....

 

I am

 

Of course, once I learn more about the newly designed piston rods and valve springs I might change my minde, but I doubt it. On the other hand, the newly designed head bolts might seal the deal.

[dtmenace]

of course, the head bolts are made out of T304 stainless w/ a pinhole drilled through the middle for substantial weight savings, HATER!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RockyMtnGT]

...imho 16hp is nominal. Also, 265hp is class competitive (especially w/AWD and lightweight)...looking at true sports sedans the B8 A4 makes barely above 200hp, 328xi makes 230hp, and the G37 328hp. I think those expecting a 300hp Legacy GT in N.America are only fooling themselves (granted I'd really like to be proven incorrect by SOA)...265hp is beyond adequete for sporty driving. While the JDM models have basically always made more power, the market is simply very different there.

 

Exactly. Power to weight is what matters, not the overall hp rating. This can be argued all day but the result on the road or at the track won't lie.

 

The WRX is a perfect example. It makes do with 'only' 265hp but with a favorable power to weight ratio it runs to 60 in 4.6 seconds and through the 1/4 in 13's @ 101.

 

Pretty amazing what redesigned 'poppits' will do! Yeah it's got a bigger turbo too, but hell we all know that's just a 'minor' change from the 08 model.

 

Just as redesigned pistons and cylinder heads are a 'minor' engine change- which really would have nothing at all to do with the power characteristics of a motor. Shaving weight and increasing strength in these areas would hardly make any difference whatsoever!! Nor the more efficient flow of exhaust gases! Hell- They probably only worked a day or two on all that minor stuff, but spent the bulk of their time shaving the poppits down .03 microns.

 

Hell I actually redesign pistons in my sleep and scribble the new specs out on a napkin when I wake up...I'm sure Subaru engineers do the same- I bet they are just using recycled part numbers from the 1990 Legacy motor- I mean it's pretty much the same ol' stuff right?

 

Redesigned poppits (let's not forget the pan!) FTW!

[rao]

I think you are missing the point - it is a WHOLE NEW ENGINE!!!!!! That's why it is so much faster., even if it made less power it would still be faster - have you seen those commercials with the WRX spinning it's tires

[Syndicate]

1. The TT engine in the 1 series is the top of the line engine, but it's not the top of the line for the 3 series. That would be the M3, see the difference? This same point applies to your analogy with the IS, the passat, and A4. Legacy has no model that elevates it power-wise above like all the other companies. In fact, the STI which is an econobox has the most power in the entire line. See if you can find another company with that as the example...

 

...one could argue VW w/the .:R32, especially in N.America where the Passat .:R36 isn't available and the Passat VR6 has been discontinued. A halo model for a line, while nice simply isn't necessary...it's just gravy if you will.

 

 

2. The VQ is an engine that is shared between certain mid to high-end models, but you don't see it on a versa now do you?

 

...if a V6 were offered in the Versa it would be a VQ

 

3. I love how you, SOA, seem to completely discount what people cross-shop with cars. It's actually why you have cars that sell so poorly. People would absolutely cross-shop a Genesis V6, CTS, G37, A4, 3 series with the Legacy...er they did as evidenced by what people have posted here time and time again but most likely will not with the 2010 craptastic model you have brought over here. You might want to get up to speed on car reviews, what people cross-shop etc.

 

...the Genesis is a luxury sedan, if people want to cross shop that against a sporty family sedan well more power to them, but generally these are not the same class of buyer. I have difficulty seeing people cross shop the CTS, but if you insist fine. The G, A4, and 3-series examples make sense and are to an extent logical. As are the Altima, Camry, Accord, and 6 comparisons (especially for those interested in the 2.5 or 3.6R). The GT compares favorably to entry level sport sedans, but it isn't the volume leader for Legacy trims.

 

4. You keep offering the example of the 328, and yet ignore what people say about it. It HANDLES so well that people don't care that it has less power than the Legacy GT, AND, it is the lower-end engine of the line. There is a 335i that people have the CHOICE to buy instead. The A4 has the 2.0t, but also has the 3.2 engine. For that matter, the new Legacy GT can't even remotely compare with Audi or BMW on interior designs, materials, etc. The current gen represented an interesting cheaper alternative to these cars..not anymore.

 

...the 328 wins reviews b/c it's a Bimmer, not b/c it's actually a superior car for it's class (the G37 should be cleaning up imo). The 335i while impressive is incredibly pricey even w/o options. The 3.2 V6 in the A4 has been discontinued and was never in anyway impressive. The current Legacy doesn't compare favorably against the VW line, I've said as much frequently...as such it's unwise to expect Audi/VW levels of refinement and fit and finish from any Subaru product. From where I sit the '10 seems like a more than viable option to not only the usual family sedan suspects but entry level sports sedan s as well. Just my .02 though.

 

5. The avg. buyer doesn't care about the differences in turbo placement between the WRX and the GT, they care about the fact that they have the same power which is ridiculous

 

...I'm not seeing how that's ridiculous. Somehow VW still manages to sell GTI/GLIs side by side w/Passats w/o any issue.

 

6. I have a strong feeling you and your buddies at SOA will be seriously reconsidering using the Camry and Accord as benchmarks for the Legacy GT at this time next year...

 

...if I worked SOA I suppose that could be a possibility, but I wouldn't put money on it.

[rao]

Subaru has done very well when they decide to compete against the mainstream - just look at the mid 90's and the raving success that is the Tribeca

[RockyMtnGT]

of course, the head bolts are made out of T304 stainless w/ a pinhole drilled through the middle for substantial weight savings, HATER!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey don't you have an "If you can read this roll me back over" sticker to mount on the X or something?!

 

Remember it's SUPPOSED to be upside down when the truck it rubber side down- that's the joke! get it?!

[JoeFromPA]

First: I love what my thread has created. bwhahaha!

 

Second: According to the specs, the overall powertrain (not drivetrain) setup of the new 2.5 liter turbo has to have been significantly modified. It makes peak torque at 2000 rpms and holds it into the 4000s. It has a relocated turbo. Both of these things tell me that the setup has been changed significantly, at least on paper.

 

Whether or not it's a whole different feeling beast is another matter. We'll see

 

Joe

[RockyMtnGT]

First: I love what my thread has created. bwhahaha!

 

Second: According to the specs, the overall powertrain (not drivetrain) setup of the new 2.5 liter turbo has to have been significantly modified. It makes peak torque at 2000 rpms and holds it into the 4000s. It has a relocated turbo. Both of these things tell me that the setup has been changed significantly, at least on paper.

 

Whether or not it's a whole different feeling beast is another matter. We'll see

 

Joe

 

Haven't you been paying attention? It's the poppits dude! The poppits are the secret to more POWAHHH. Along with air flow around the oil pan!

 

See and we waste all our $$$ on engine tuning and exhaust systems...minor stuff!

[IwannaSportSedan]

Unless you've measured to the millimeter yourself... your "there's no room" is your opinion. A word to the contrary from you is unqualified trolling. Even if it's been lowered only .2", that'd make it a full 1" lower than the 3rd generation Legacy.

 

I've got one big question...

 

If they lowered the engine, why does the front end of the car look like a barn door?

 

Why is the cowl line so high?

 

A boxer engine is a shorter height engine than most, even if it wasn't lowered in the chassis, yet the '10 Legacy looks like it has a similar hood height to cars with vertical inline engines under there, and which still meet the utterly MORONIC pedestrian regs.

 

Plus, with a turbo mounted low, somehow I doubt the engine is mounted much lower than the BL model. Dragging a turbo over a speed bump is not a great idea.

 

Unless they lowered the engine in the chassis by just a little, and then raised the ride height by a little more... and negated the point.

[Alicafster]

Here is the sub-frame, cradle, chassi etc... clear it out fellas.