M3 --> Lgt?

[JoeFromPA]

To the OP and other posters: The LGT will not handle the same (on dry ground) as the M3 without major, major modification. The M3 starts out with a far superior suspension design (for handling), a much higher grade of parts, more centralized mass, a better weight distribution, and I believe less wheelbase making it more agile. To get the LGT to that point, we're talking full suspension and serious wheels/tires. Even then, you MIGHT equal it....to better it, you would completely sacrifice ride comfort. To equal it, you might lose the ride comfort comparison over the M3. Furthermore, in suspension, wheels, and tires alone you would probably need to drop $5k on the car to get it there. If you want new parts.

 

I'd assuming good coilovers = $1500, Swaybars + endlinks = $350, Camber Plates? = $100-300?, installation of all of those = $600. So let's say $2500 there.

 

A high quality set of wheels/tires for daily driver and track use are probably going to run $2000 minimum. You would want a lightweight but very strong wheel tire.

 

Anyway, to do it right with your suspension I'd assume around $5k.

 

Power is much easier. $2 grand and you have the power of an M3....except it's not as smooth delivery, or as linear. You don't have the top-end. Spec.B is all well and good, but if you go with Spec.B and replace the whole suspension anyway you just spent an extra $5k on a transmission, nav system, alcantara, and memory seats (and, I guess, VDC). If you don't go with the Spec.B., you get the 5-speed trans which starts to get a little hairer around those power levels. Plus it's not going to be geared to those power levels.

 

Your braking will probably never be the same. The M3's braking is a finely tuned track-and-daily-driver ready system. You could easily drop $1500-2000 on this sytem and not be as happy.

 

The interior of the M3 is far more luxurious (though not as useful).

 

So why are we trying to make the LGT something it's not?

 

If M3 levels of handling are not that important to you, but ride quality is, just stick with the stock Spec.B. suspension and add sway bars.

 

Add an exhaust and tune and go to Stage 2 levels of power (from what I've read, you'll have more torque than an M3 and less top-end HP at that point).

 

And you'll have a very comfortable 4-door daily driver that wouldn't get anywhere near an M3 on the track but is 4-season capable.

 

Joe

 

P.s. The point of my post was also to say people who buy M3's and want to make them handle like Lotus Elise's....they got alot of "Well, you can add coilovers and r-compound tires, swaybars, and then it'll handle like one". It's a bunch of BS. It still won't handle like one....but what are your goals, anyway?

[JoeFromPA]

By the way, BMW service vs. Subaru Service...from what I've read on here, I'd take the BMW service. They are both a rip-off, but BMW service seems to consistently get the job done right, consistently gives you a loaner, etc.

 

If you are modifying the hell out of your vehicle, why would you even take it to a dealer? At that point, you probably have a trusty mechanic.

 

Joe

[rc0032]

In both posts you said pay for service/ installs

[JoeFromPA]

Yeah, I did. I'd pay for tuning, and for a coilover installation and the resulting alignment, and I'd pay for some services. I think most people fall into that boat.

 

I'd do my oil changes, tire rotations, coolant, and even brake fluid/pads.

 

Are you concerned about that?

 

Joe

[Artmasterx]

I guess you could also just go with 04+ S4, especially if you don't what to mess with significant modding. Seems like the easy way to get a high performance AWD sports sedan.

[ehsnils]

The Legacy will never impress your friends and it isn't as expensive feeling as the M3.

 

That depends on the driving conditions. The M3 will be best when it's dry, but as soon as the rain starts to fall, there is gravel or even snow and ice you will get a different story.

 

In order to impress your friends - it's not about the look of the car, it's about the handling - and that in a large variety of conditions. So far I have found out that the Subaru may not be excellent in a specific condition (OK, the WRX STI really does well in Rally), but it sure never lets you down completely for any kind of everyday use. Well - more than 4 inches of wet snow is starting to get hard, but by then you have lost out a lot of competition already and mostly have to compete with the SUV:s and other devices more designed for the absence of roads. And those are generally really bad in most other conditions.

[05GT Guru]

The LGT is a well rounded car, i dotn think its the best at anything, speed handling, offroad but its a good balance. Ive got my car for speed the LGT takes care of the rest

[camber]

To the OP and other posters: The LGT will not handle the same (on dry ground) as the M3 without major, major modification. The M3 starts out with a far superior suspension design (for handling), a much higher grade of parts, more centralized mass, a better weight distribution, and I believe less wheelbase making it more agile.

 

 

It's got front MacPherson struts and mutlilink link rear suspension. The only major aluminum piece in the suspension, is the front the lower control arms

 

The suspension setup same as the Legacy and less light weight pieces then the spec. B suspension!

The inline six offers a very high CG and extends two cylinders infront of the front axel line

 

Far from offering more centralized mass. The new V8 M3 is a bit better.

It does have a better weight distrubution but it's a RWD car with 2/3s hood:lol:

 

 

Wheel base is 107.5 inches for the E46 M3

LGT 105.1 inches

 

[JoeFromPA]

Camber - You are right on the wheelbase. The M3 is 6 inches shorter in total length but has a 2 inch longer wheelbase.

 

I don't have a car schematic in front of me. BMW pushes the front wheels way forward and has very little overhang on the front (a decent amount on the rear). I am assuming that, due to this design, the weight is more centralized with the contact patches. I have no idea how to prove that, as I'd have to take into effect things like placement of the radiator and other things. So, yes, it's an assumption. I would still say that, despite the different engine designs (and the BMW M3 block being iron), the mass is more centralized in this vehicle.

 

I thought the BMW's suspension was almost entirely aluminum (as on the new e90 RWD models), but I was saying specifically that it has a superior design. The suspension geometry is superior, for handling purposes, and is not something you can really redesign on either car. All the coilovers, etc. only utilize the existing design with new parts.

 

Joe

[rc0032]

You can do what ever you want to the handling of a M3 but in Chicago you can only really drive it 9 months out of the year without fear

[camber]

How exactly would the supension design be superior?

 

Macpherson struts would limit the camber curve on both cars. You can't really do to anything with a Macpherson strut suspension desgined suspension to make it worlds better then another design.

 

They both have rear multilink suspensions. BMW does nothing trick here to optimize geometry in rear.

 

As far as the weight distrubution is concerned. The BMW M3 will always have a better front to rear weight distrubution due to it being RWD only. Packaging a AWD drivetrain to optimize F:R weight distrubtion will always be challenging.

 

However, the center of gravity will be much higher due to the upright positioning of the very heavy inline 6 and its accessories. Outside some proper sports cars and exotics there aren't many cars that can beat Subarus on cg.

 

The only thing that the E46 M3 stock has going over the LGT, in the suspension area, is that it has a lower overall ride height which claws back some of its cg disadvantage(from the positon of the engine), wider wheels and tires.

[rc0032]

LGT is the king of cars

[deimos]

LGT is the king of cars

 

 

perfect timing

[camber]

The is nothing inherently better in E46 M3 suspension setup compared to other cars. The little bits and pieces it does have over the LGT, can be found easily in the aftermarket.

 

ie. pillow ball joints, struts, bushings, and sway bars.

 

The real magic in BMW's for me, are the brakes...

[rc0032]

The is nothing inherently better in a stock E46 M3 suspension setup compared to other cars. The little bits and pieces it does have over the LGT, can be found easily in the aftermarket LGT.

Why is everyones answer to the LGT being as good or better than another car to mod it? Cant people accept the LGT is not god? Its a good bang for the buck car case closed.

 

Have you driven a M3? Its like sex on wheels compared to an LGT stock or fully modded.

[camber]

You can do what ever you want to the handling of a M3 but in Chicago you can only really drive it 9 months out of the year without fear

 

 

 

People drive M3's in the winter all the time here. Snow tires are the key.

[Vimy101]

Spec.B is the king of cars

 

fixor3d

[05GT Guru]

I have driven M3s, and they do handle damn sexy as for the brakes the only car i ever owned that could stop faster was my T/A and thats only because i have drilled slotted rotors and 6 piston calipers.

[jigelow]

Why is everyones answer to the LGT being as good or better than another car to mod it? Cant people accept the LGT is not god? Its a good bang for the buck car case closed.

 

Have you driven a M3? Its like sex on wheels compared to an LGT stock or fully modded.

 

 

Because they change the basis of arguement so they're right.

 

 

Sure the Porsche 996 is faster than the Legacy, but can you jerk off in the back seat in a Porsche? That's right you can't. Told you the Legacy was a better car!

[iyalla]

 

The real magic in BMW's for me, are the brakes...

 

No the real magic is that they have managed to convince everybody that they are superior in every aspect. You can't put a price on how valuable that is. Even if by some weird miracle they started building crappy handling cars it is such a powerful believe that people would still be convinced that they are superior. Its what every car maker dreams off. BMW owns "handling" in the conscious of even non-BMW owners worldwide.

[camber]

Why is everyones answer to the LGT being as good or better than another car to mod it? Cant people accept the LGT is not god? Its a good bang for the buck car case closed.

 

Have you driven a M3? Its like sex on wheels compared to an LGT stock or fully modded.

 

Ummm..

 

I was pointing out the fact that LGT and e46 M3 have basically exact same supension setup. There is nothing magically about the M3 suspension.

 

The M3 is not a sports car get over it. The M3 is no god car either

 

I actually chose a spec. B over a used E46 M3.

 

If we're taking about suspension designs, the 911 is unspectacular as well. It uses Macpherson front struts and an impaired(by space) multlink suspension in the rear. Ever driven a lowered new 911 at the limit?

 

Fun experience....

[05GT Guru]

BMWs do handle well but i am a person who likes to be put into his seat on a straight away, the M3s feel like they are lacking torque everytime i have driven one.

[camber]

BMWs do handle well .

 

No one going to argue against that....

 

However, the is absolutely nothing inherently special about BMW's suspension design on the E46 M3. It's basically the same type of supension design that all middle of the road cars have. Except with less aluminum bits then its closest rivals:lol:

[JoeFromPA]

Only time for one short post: 05gtGuru your TA does NOT stop in the shortest distance becuase of your drilled/slotted rotors and 6-piston calipers

 

Stopping distance for any car is a matter of tires first, then usually pads, then calipers, and then rotors.

 

Rotors are usually only good for fade resistance (i.e. most rotors can generate enough friction, but they are different in heat dissapation and capacity).

 

Calipers are good for clamping force, but usually include more than enough. Hence, there are plenty of damn fine cars that can produce unbelievably short stopping distances with 2 pistons. 6-pistons are good for providing unbelievable clamping force and great feel because of the surface area being clamped and evenness of clamping.

 

Pads - If your tires can handle it, this is usually the next step for friction generation. If you can stop hard enough that your ABS engages, or your tires skid, then your pads can overload your tires.

 

BTW - Drilled rotors tend to produce longer stopping distances than just flat or slotted. They give less surface area for the pad to rub against, and therefore less overall friction is generated. They are only good for ultimate heat dissapation, which is really only needed for high speed tracks and high power applications.

 

Joe

[05GT Guru]

I had eagle F1s on front and rear, sometimes with M/T drag radials on the rear. All i know is i could out stop my friends Evo 9 with custom calipers and pads from 60-0 by almost 2 cars.