Legacy S Concept @ Tokyo Auto Salon

[LittleBlueGT]

http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/01_l.jpg

http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/02_l.jpg

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http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/06_l.jpg

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http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/12_l.jpg

http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/13_l.jpg

[LittleBlueGT]

And in case anybody missed the 6 pots and what looks like 2 piece rotors:

 

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/LSTI6pot2piece.jpg

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/LSTI6pot2piece.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

[IwannaSportSedan]

FRAKKIN HELL.

 

WHY CAN'T I BUY THIS CAR?????????

 

This just pisses me the hell off.

 

Forged BBS. (no doubt bilsteins and pinks behind them...)

Brembo ^6^ piston brakes.

Carbon interior trim, and black stack face.

STI start button, and STI badges from the factory.

6MT. (man, I wish they would put DCCD in it, too... that and a sunroof is the only thing missing here.)

2.5 Turbo motor (ok, we get that part, but does SOJ put the twin-scroll on this beast?)

Memory seats. (and I actually like the lighter leather on the otherwise black interior.)

Black headliner (look through the windows on the exterior shots... it's pretty dark.)

and the JDM correctly split tail lights, rear fogs, and HID/adjustable/washer equipped headlights...

 

and almost as important... NO MANDATORY NAV!!! (in Japan, it is probably optional, just as it should be.)

 

This thing probably has the STI 5x114 bolt pattern, gauging by the wheels and brakes. That means that the Evo MR's 7-pair BBS forged spoke wheels will probably be a direct swap, and the STI badges will very likely still fit the hub centers, I just happen to like that style of BBS more than the RE. I like the CH, but something about the RE's variation isn't quite my taste.

 

K2 front bumper cover (M5-style, which is an easy swap for a car with the JDM spec B setup anyway) is the only other major appearance modification I would make, and again, just based on my taste.

 

WR Blue, please, and FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, SELL IT IN NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Leonardo]

Yes, but would you pay close to 60 for it? It's the STi and it's at or above 40 and this is way nicer and more expensive.

 

I know I would!!!

[deimos]

I was just thinking to myself yesterday, "im so glad the lgt doesnt have one of those ghey fake side vents"

 

 

.....too late, its like the side blinker from the 90's, overdone and pointless

[korpsepatrol]

JEEBUS that looks awesome, the vents i can do without but the rest... awesome. Just wish the car was in black or dgm.

[LittleBlueGT]

Silky White Pearl

EJ25STI 2.5L AVCS Twin-Scroll Turbo

276+ hp

253+ lb-ft

 

 

 

 

post #170

[RedDevil]

I want that shift knob...

[IwannaSportSedan]

Silky White Pearl

EJ25STI 2.5L AVCS Twin-Scroll Turbo

276+ hp

253+ lb-ft

 

post #170

 

Good lord, that is under-rated.

 

A twin scroll 2.5 liter making only 276hp and 253 lb.ft. That should be capable of 335hp and 300+ lb.ft. with nothing more than an ECU tune, and a good down-pipe.

 

Ok... let's break this down, what is different and the same as the Spec B we already get, and things that the WRX STI has.

 

USDM Spec B -- USDM WRX STI -- Legacy S concept.

2.5 turbo -- same -- same, plus twin scroll, but that is no extra parts, just different.

6MT, no DCCD -- 6MT DCCD -- 6MT no DCCD (but should)

subaru brakes -- Brembo 4-piston -- Brembo 6-piston

Bilsteins -- Bilsteins -- Bilsteins and pinks (but then so do all JDM STI vehicles)

Leather -- Leather optional -- Leather

cast wheels -- forged BBS optional -- forged BBS

NAV standard -- NAV optional -- NAV not present, but probably optional

~34999 -- ~34999 (+4k for options) -- Unknown for US market.

 

Other than some carbon trim pieces from the STI accessory catalog, they are fairly closely matched. Also, a US model would probably not get the twin-scroll, so standard 2.5 GT engine, maybe STI turbo and intake setup. It would probably gain a sunroof, also, since every other sedan has it besides the 2.5i base and SE. Less cost to put sunroof roof skins and headliners in everything... and we know how Subaru loves option choices.

 

Spec B is overpriced for it's equipment. The Legacy S loses the nav from that, so minus 2k. Adds brakes and wheels. +2k back in (net, considering part swap, not addition) Maybe SPT exhaust and intake standard, so +1K more.

 

I could easily see an STI-branded Legacy S in the US market for 36k, if the Spec B were to move down to $32k fully equipped, with Nav optional, and full color choice. (it would be moved down from it's top-of-line market position anyway) GT Limited similarly moving down below $28k well equipped, maybe even ~26k, if we were really lucky.

 

The Forester thread mentions something besides the Forester being shown at Detroit. Maybe it is a Legacy S for the US market... but somehow I am not holding my breath.

 

But if this car does arrive north of 40k, it will only continue subaru's streak of missing the mark.

 

The Legacy, as great of a car as I think it is, cannot compete with the 335i and G35x Touring or 6MT sport above 40k. It doesn't have enough interior amenities, and it is still a turbo 4, which has a certain market perception.

 

The Legacy S is what the Spec B should be, where the Spec B is priced. The Spec B is what $30-32k should be buying, and the 2.5 GT Limited is getting rebated anyway, so why not price it well below 30k, closer to $25-27k.

 

 

Sidebar:

The Mitsubishi Evo GSR just got official. 33k. (this is the one WITHOUT the big time transmission. Three 2000$ option packages, a 400$ disc changer, and a 400$ aluminum shifter, e-brake and leather boot package. The thing tops out north of $42K. FOR A HOPPED UP ECONOMY CAR!!! The STI is not as bad, but probably close enough.

 

The economy is not headed in that direction. consumer debt is getting out of hand, and the market is contracting. I can't think that the market is going to continue to support $30k and headed to $40k as the median price for average to somewhat nice cars.

 

There is certainly no way this Legacy S is $60k USD. It wouldn't sell ten units. It would have a hard time above $37k, no matter how sweet I think it is. Take a look at Mazdaspeed6 rebates to sell the remaining units. There may even be a 2007 Spec B left-over on the Ramsey Subaru lot in Des Moines, and it was marked down to ~$32k last time I saw it.

[DukeTrout]

I agree with a lot of what you say above, IWSS, but I get really tired of this

 

Spec B is overpriced for it's equipment.

 

generalization.

 

MSRP from the Subaru website:

Legacy spec.B = $33995

Legacy GT = $28295

 

So $5700 for:

Nav

Bilstiens

aluminum suspension bits

6 speed manual transmission (07+)

various and sundry aesthetic bits

18" wheels

RE050 tires

steering wheel radio controls (06&07)

Torsen rear lsd

R180 rear drivetrain

larger rear halfshafts

 

and I'm sure I missed some stuff. Everybody always does. Even Subaru's spec sheet misses some things.

 

If you think that list of fine parts, objectively, doesn't add up to $5700, you're nuts. If you don't think that all or some of the parts are worth it, that's your opinion and a good reason for you not to buy that vehicle.

 

But it's not a good reason to make snide comments about those who did.

 

And I can tell you that if you haven't driven the whole of the sum, you don't know what you're missing. The suspension really can't just be cobbled together from random aftermarket parts. It is well-matched. The 6-speed isn't just a 5-speed with an extra, tall gear at the end. It is among the smoothest of manual transmissions available, superior to current offerings from BMW and almost as good, if not as good as, the best from Honda.

 

I don't mean this to be a rant on you, IWSS, but as I already mentioned, I get tired of the whole anti-spec.B attitude. Nobody with a spec.B gets uppity about it compared to LGTs. OK, nobody but Vimy gets uppity about it compared to LGTs.

 

Can't we all just get along?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Do you get the spare parts back?

 

The cubby box

OE struts

steel suspension

5-speed

replaced aesthetic bits (exactly what is that? the Spec B can only be identified by the wheels and the shifter, if it's debadged...)

17" oe wheels

RE92s

steering wheel without audio buttons

viscous rear LSD from the GT

Are you sure that the rear half shafts are different? If so, count the original half shafts as spare parts.

 

If you get the spare parts back, to re-sell, then you can make a case. But since you don't, you have to deduct those parts before you add the upgrades, to measure the net change. Then the question is, does the NET PRICE DIFFERENCE equal or less than the $5700 MSRP premium.

 

Also, more importantly, what does the market say? Spec Bs don't sell all that well, and there are only about 500 made per year. As I said, I've seen a left over recently that hadn't been sold after well more than a year. Why can't subaru sell 500 of these things easily?

 

I am not trying to "HATE" the Spec B. But Why does SOA have to make it so hard to like?

 

I want a 6MT. I'd even like a bit of color in the black interior, red or blue. I am even considering putting the bilsteins on my car when the time comes to replace the struts. But I don't need NAV, and I don't like gray paint, and why should I pay more for something without a choice in the matter?

 

THAT is the part I don't appreciate, and don't want to take on more debt for. If you do, then fine. Have fun with your spec B, I don't begrudge you that, or blame you, if you like it.

 

Please also notice, I called for the Legacy GT Limited to get a similar price drop, too. It isn't well enough equipped to be a truly good deal at 30k fully loaded. 26-27k should get a well equipped GT Limited, as currently configured. For 30k, it should come with more than it does. It should come with what the Spec B has. Other $30-35k cars come with much more.

 

TSX is better equipped, amenities-wise, as is G35. Camry and Accord have more available options than Legacy GT, and the Legacy is the one that needs to prove itself in the marketplace, other cars sell more in a month or two than Legacy does all year.

 

People don't even know about the Legacy. The legacy needs to offer more for less money, and compete favorably. It already does, in the hardware department, but certainly not inside the cabin.

 

I recently looked at 2008 Legacys at the Subaru dealer in Bellevue NE, which has many more Legacys in stock than Des Moines. There was not a 2008 GT in stock less than 30,500, and that was the dark gray one with a stick. the rest were Autos, and all over 31,200. NOT A SINGE ONE was priced below 30k. The 2 3.0Rs were $32k, also, and they have the same equipment as the Spec B, aside from the drivetrain change.

 

I have never seen a Spec B with a sticker price less than 34k. I have seen them with rebates written below that, but never a number on the actual window sticker.

 

The Spec B is something truly compelling in other markets. Some well chosen suspension upgrades and sportier looks/wheels, available at a reasonable upgrade price, with all the configuration choices that the rest of the Legacys get, like a 'sport package' should be.

 

The Spec B in the US is not living up to that potential, and that is a let down to some of the people here who know what "could have been", and what we would really like to see, in order to BUY.

 

Let me put it this way:

 

If SOA built and spec'd the GT Spec B the way JDM does, and I suggest, you would still have bought it. You would have picked your color, and had pretty much the same car you have now, for less money.

 

The difference would be... I might have one, too. in my choice of colors, and within a realm of finance that I would have been willing to pay.

 

How is that a bad thing? For the economists... I contend that Legacy GT and Spec B are too high on the laffer curve. It the price would come down just a bit, to the optimum point, volume sales would pick up, and revenues per car might be lower, but more volume would actually increase revenues. Given of course, that Subaru re-invested, or pre-invested some of that in advertizing that actually let people know of the car's existence.

 

It is kind of like lowering taxes. More people make more money with lower tax rates, and pay individually less of a percent of a larger numerical figure (and keep a larger percentage of a larger number), but more volume of elligible tax payers and higher taxable income overall means more tax revenue overall. That has happened, verifiably, after the "Bush" tax cuts. Government has seen more revenue than they estimated since that was passed. They never seem to estimate on a dynamic scale, they only do the basic math, and don't take dynamic effects into account. They still continue to spend way more than the increased revenue, though, unfortunately. The spending is their problem.

But mostly I want to just use that as a financial illustration that lower prices don't necessarily mean less revenue and profit, if volume goes up as a result.

[Mines]

oh my long post

[Mines]

if subaru america came out with all those parts posted on the legacy s concpet for the US market, It would cost a lot, I would be in a whole different league.. like audi S4

 

The legacy tuned by sti already starts at just under 40k. There is no way the legacy s concept would be 37k

 

see, short and simple, wasn't too hard

[axis008]

hahahaha.

 

an iwss post is worthless if its not essay length.

[speeding_gaijin]

my contribution

 

not sure if anybody mentioned this, but Subaru of Japan is installing a 2.5 Turbo engine in this one. never been done in Japan yet.

 

Personally I love the side vents and the aluminium mirrors.

 

Looks like really good leather inside, but Subaru could be more modern and use more aluminium panels inside (but not plasitic painted as aluminium!!)

 

 

Don't like the rims at all. If I bought this car, I would have driven it straight to Autobacs to have tham chaned for something better looking. And I think its sits a bit too high.

 

LittleBlueGT: what camera did you use? these pics are stunning quality!

[LittleBlueGT]

Good lord, that is under-rated.

 

A twin scroll 2.5 liter making only 276hp and 253 lb.ft. That should be capable of 335hp and 300+ lb.ft. with nothing more than an ECU tune, and a good down-pipe.

 

A TS is not capable of making any more power then a single scroll, just has a lower boost threshold and quicker spool.

[LittleBlueGT]

I didn't take the pics, I found them on Nasioc, just posted them here.

[DukeTrout]

A TS is not capable of making any more power then a single scroll, just has a lower boost threshold and quicker spool.

 

But the TS associated with the JDM 2.0L turbo setup is bigger than the VF40. How else does it put down 276 ftlbs with 20% less displacement? Yes, I know the 2.0L revs through the roof, and that's why I'm not talking hp.

 

The TS for the JDM 2.0L turbo should be roughly equivalent to the VF39 in output if mated to the 2.5L block. Just an empirical estimate, based on what other turbos do for the two different engines, but it at least places brackets around what the potential of that turbo is.

 

VF40<TS~VF39<AVO420

[DukeTrout]

Do you get the spare parts back?

 

The cubby box

OE struts

steel suspension

5-speed

replaced aesthetic bits (exactly what is that? the Spec B can only be identified by the wheels and the shifter, if it's debadged...)

17" oe wheels

RE92s

steering wheel without audio buttons

viscous rear LSD from the GT

Are you sure that the rear half shafts are different? If so, count the original half shafts as spare parts.

 

(snip for brevity)

 

But mostly I want to just use that as a financial illustration that lower prices don't necessarily mean less revenue and profit, if volume goes up as a result.

 

Again, I agree with 99% of what you are saying. Yes, I'd like a color choice. Yes, if the Nav had been optional, I wouldn't have chosen it. I would now regret that choice, because I like the OEM Nav and the other capabililties the info screen gives. I would really have liked to have had bigger, better brakes on this car, but the OEM brakes are actually quite good as long as you aren't spending a day on the track.

 

But you're talking about preferences, not objective value. And the problem with your "spare parts" math is that the pieces you're talking about have little or no market value. In the process of upgrading a LGT to spec.B, exactly how much do you think you are going to make from your spare parts? Assuming they are brand new - you did the upgrade at the dealer before driving the car off the lot.

 

You could get some money for the trans, the rear LSD and the OEM wheels. RE92s? Steel suspension bits? Maybe if you happen to find someone who's wrecked their suspension on a curb somewhere. But it's not like you're going to get even wholesale for any of the above. So maybe you cleared $1000 on the whole kit. Now you buy the spec.B 18"s, used. You are now back to even, with a long way to go to get to your destination.

 

Assuming you have the tools and expertise to do the mechanical installation, electrical installation, not to mention upholstery skills. For 07s, to the best of our knowledge you'd have to get a new ECU to run the memory seats, since they don't have their own control module.

 

The task is far more than you make it out to be. And in the end, you can say that the difference in the cost of parts for SOA doesn't add up to $5700, but that's not the real value. If someone wants all the differences in the spec.B, that SOA doesn't offer on the LGT, they'd have to put the differences together themselves. And that is the real value difference between the two. How's that for economics? It is supply and demand.

 

And fyi, for 07s, in an area where Subarus are well-known like the PNW, they sold out within a few months of availability. The last one that I had heard of was at Wentworth in downtown Portland, which they held solid at $40k. Might as well have sealed it up in a block of acrylic and kept it in the showroom so that no one could actually touch the car.

 

Most, if not all, spec.B owners didn't pay MSRP, just like LGT owners. Contrast this to Acura, Infiniti, BMW, etc. who do not budge on MSRP unless they are really trying to get an albatross of a car from off their shoulders. So it's not like spec.B owners are really paying $34k, just like LGT owners aren't really paying $30k. Maybe this is a leftover from when GM influenced Subaru with all the markdowns and rebates, but in real-world money, people are paying 32 for spec.Bs, like people are paying 27 or 28 for GTs. Due to my specific circumstances when I bought mine, I actually paid less than $3k more for the spec.B than I would have for a GT, and I picked mine up an hour after it was loaded off the truck.

[Mines]

But the TS associated with the JDM 2.0L turbo setup is bigger than the VF40. How else does it put down 276 ftlbs with 20% less displacement? Yes, I know the 2.0L revs through the roof, and that's why I'm not talking hp.

 

The TS for the JDM 2.0L turbo should be roughly equivalent to the VF39 in output if mated to the 2.5L block. Just an empirical estimate, based on what other turbos do for the two different engines, but it at least places brackets around what the potential of that turbo is.

 

VF40<TS~VF39<AVO420

 

twinscroll doesn't necessarily mean bigger than vf40. The vf38 is about the same size as the vf40.

[DukeTrout]

Huh, then how do they get that kind of output from the 2.0? Again, I'm not talking hp, I'm talking torque.

[IwannaSportSedan]

But you're talking about preferences, not objective value. And the problem with your "spare parts" math is that the pieces you're talking about have little or no market value. In the process of upgrading a LGT to spec.B, exactly how much do you think you are going to make from your spare parts? Assuming they are brand new - you did the upgrade at the dealer before driving the car off the lot.

 

I don't think you are getting me.

 

Every part that the Spec B upgrades, is one non-spec-B part that the subaru plant DOESN'T HAVE TO BUY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

They don't have the expense of putting both GT parts, and Spec B parts in the spec B. You have to deduct the cost of the parts that DON'T get installed, and don't get ordered in the first place! Subaru does not pay for the Spec B to have the non-spec B parts in addition to the spec B specific ones. THAT is why you can't judge the upgrades by the retail markup.

 

Why do you think GM makes thousands of dollars more in profit on an Escalade vs a Tahoe. They are built the same way with slightly different parts, and cost nearly the same to build. The price is what they can get people to pay for on the retail end for the feature combination.

 

It isn't as though Subaru re-sells the spare parts I listed. They don't buy those quantities of parts to begin with! That cost isn't incurred, only the slight increase in costs for the better parts over the normal parts.

 

The seats are made by machines, just like all the other Legacy seats, with a bit different materials put in the sewing machines for the upholstery. The transmissions and differentials get installed on the same assembly line. The NAV gets installed just like it does on the GT automatics with the option, and the 3.0R, and any Outback that has it. And most of those cars don't cost as much as the Spec B.

 

The paint color is a data flag in the assembly control computer. no reason besides a STUPID CORPORATE DECISION to limit color choices.

 

NEVER, EVER judge the cost of a package upgrade by the cost of the parts that get added. For almost every part upgraded, there is a corresponding part that doesn't need to be ordered from the supplier, or built by the sub-assemblers.

 

Not only that, but the retail price of the parts from the Subaru parts counter are marked up for retail profit, and the manufacturing operation doesn't pay that markup, either. They buy at bulk cost, which is much less than you or I could get as retail price for those parts.

 

And, as a sidenote, if you have to have a new Body/chassis Control Unit for memory seats, then SOA is completely stupid. Why have a separate part for that feature? why incur that kind of inventory and development costs? FOR MEMORY SEATS, for pete's sake. Chances are, if you put memory seats on an 07+ GT, I'll bet they would work. The BCU is expensive enough to make one version of, I doubt there are two versions for the same model year. Maybe 06 didn't have it, and it was revised as part of the new model year update, but I'll bet there isn't more than one BCU for 07.

 

And as another thought...

If rebates are so common, why not discount the price, and advertise the price as being lower than the competition, and then sell at that price? They aren't making the retail price anyway, so they aren't exactly losing revenue. And the increased sales at lower prices might actually bring in some more revenue.

 

That 2007 Spec B is in fact still covered in snow on the Ramsey Subaru dealer lot in Des moines. Still not sold, and has been marked down below $32k. No wonder they don't like to stock Legacy turbos there. The market has something to say about price, and it is saying that it is too high for the car to sell. For more than a year.

 

If Subaru were to build the Legacy S for the US market, all of the further upgrades would displace lower-trim parts, again. If Subaru can't sell a Legacy S in the US for less than 40k, and actually closer to $36k with the equipment that the JDM Legacy S has, then they indeed shouldn't bother. because they can't compete at 28k with the GT limited, and they certainly can't compete at 34k for the Spec B, with other cars at those price ranges, when the Legacy stagnates year over year, and other cars are getting better.

 

G35 has been updated. Genesis is coming out. TL-S came out. TSX with turbo and SH-AWD is coming soon. IS350 and CTS are out, and G8 is coming. Accord and Camry have more stock horsepower. Cars like Azera have more power and more room, even if they aren't quite as fast.

Legacy hasn't made a splash, and hasn't been upgraded to keep up. It could have gotten more for the 08 refresh than it did. Instead, it got beige paint.

 

Either this needs to get serious, or they need to pack it up. I love the Legacy, and it is one of my favorite cars. The longer they let it stagnate, the harder it is going to fall. More than the wagon body-style is going to get cut. People are already talking about the Legacy getting bigger for '10. Will it even have a turbo option then, or will it go the way of the Camry, and Taurus/500 and become a bland-mobile that just happens to have a good 6-cylinder boxer, and good AWD.

 

I love the Legacy as a product, but if Subaru thinks that there are more consumers like you who will accept less choice for more money, and thinks it can continue the way it has been going, it is going to continue to miss it's market targets, and sales are going to continue to fall, and products will only suffer more for it.

[pengwin]

That looks awesome. i love the vents and i think im the only one).

 

 

i dunno if it's been mentioned but they should make a Legacy STi and turbo the 3.0 flat-6 instead of the impreza engine. Make for an amazing car.

[DukeTrout]

I don't think you are getting me.

 

Oh, I am. I understand where you're coming from. I'm trying to present an alternative perspective.

 

Every part that the Spec B upgrades, is one non-spec-B part they DON'T HAVE TO BUY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

They don't have the expense of putting both GT parts, and Spec B parts in the spec B.

 

You have to deduct the cost of the parts that DON'T get installed, and don't get ordered in the first place!

 

NEVER, EVER judge the cost of a package upgrade by the cost of the parts that get added. For almost every part upgraded, there is a corresponding part that doesn't need to be ordered from the supplier, or built by the sub-assemblers.

 

Not only that, but the retail price of the parts are marked up for retail profit, and the manufacturing operation doesn't pay that markup, either. They buy at bulk cost.

 

Subaru does not pay for the Spec B to have the non-spec B parts in addition to the spec B specific ones. THAT is why you can't judge the upgrades by the retail markup.

 

You and I are are talking about slightly different things. You seem to be talking about pricing. I'm talking about value. In a perfect world, they are the same. In the real world, they have little to do with each other.

 

Let's forget for a moment that you've failed to take into consideration the disproportionate costs of design, certification, manufacturing changes, inventory of both parts and final product, promotion, manuals, training, commission, etc., etc., etc., that accumulate for any product that is different.

 

You're assuming that pricing is directly related to the difference in cost for the manufacturer between one model and another. It couldn't be further from the truth. The only check that is made, during the planning process and again near the completion on a new project, is: are we covering the difference in cost with the price? The actual, final price is determined by factors mostly related to product positioning, both internally and relative to competitor's products.

 

And, as a sidenote, if you have to have a new Body/chassis Control Unit for memory seats, then SOA is completely stupid. Why have a separate part for that feature?

 

Chances are, if you put memory seats, or even just the BUTTONS on an 07+ GT, I'll bet they would work. The BCU is expensive enough to make one version of. Why make two versions just for seat memory?

 

That's wonderful. Many members have been trying to do this. Some have already installed 07 spec.B seats in their OB or LGT. Guess what? They look great, but no memory seats. There is no memory seat control module with the seat. There's a wire that runs up through the center tunnel and through the firewall. I don't think anybody's traced it further, but it either goes to the BCU or ECU or some genius decided to mount the memory control module in the engine bay.

 

I don't call it engineering genius, but that's the way it is. I wish it was otherwise, because I want to mount an 07 spec.B seat in our OBXT specifically for the memory seat function, but all the reseach I've done says it isn't going to happen.

 

If Subaru were to build the Legacy S for the US market, all of the further upgrades would displace lower-trim parts, again.

 

And the pricing would be done by SOA, mostly relative to the STi, spec.B, and whatever cars they feel are competitors to the Legacy S. NOT simply by calculating the difference in cost relative to the spec.B. That difference would simply serve as a baseline.

 

And as another thought...

If rebates are so common, why not discount the price, and advertise the price as being lower than the competition, and then sell at that price? They aren't making the retail price anyway, so they aren't exactly losing revenue. And the increased sales at lower prices might actually bring in some more revenue.

 

I wish they wouldn't rebate and discount so much. I only know subaru from the days when GM was the major influence, and I wonder how much of their pricing structure is from remaining bad habits from the days when GM owned 20%.

 

Then again, there is a school of thought in business to have higher MSRPs and run discounts to some customers on some products. That way, the majority of fools will buy your products for the inflated MSRP, while your sales force still has the flexibility to discount for more savvy customers. Of course, the down side is that if you advertise inflated prices, how many customers simply never darken your doors...?

[tachikaze]

Not only that, but the retail price of the parts from the Subaru parts counter are marked up for retail profit, and the manufacturing operation doesn't pay that markup, either. They buy at bulk cost, which is much less than you or I could get as retail price for those parts

.

 

yeah, well, that's not how the world works. Prices in the real world are set by substitution cost on the consumer's end, not COGS (cost of goods sold) or any economics on the producer's end.

 

Eg. the new Honda hydrogen-powered sedan that they're going to start leasing @ $600/mo for down in LA. They can set this pricepoint because the damn thing has a daily running cost of about half the equivalent gasoline burner, so the $600/mo lease means more money to Honda and less to Chevron and our OPEC friends overseas.

 

Half of running a successful niche-scale retail operation is devising pricepoints and forcing mechanisms that customers will/can/should happily buy into.

 

The Japanese automakers have a different business model in their home country, however. There, every dealer is like the best boutique dealerships here and the prices, options, and customer care are equally elevated.

 

From what I see, the reason they don't have more paint codes for the Spec.B is to make the inventory more fungible between dealers (every paint code they offer means dealers have to buy more Spec.Bs to cover the range).

 

Clearly the future should be a BTO (build-to-order) system where we all can get the exact car we want with minimal BS, but that's thinking logically and the new car business is anything but logical. It runs on image, asymmetrical information, emotions, lust, greed, envy, lies, and salesmanship.