DukeTrout Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Right on, tachikaze. What interested me about the EDM BMW 130i was that they could produce a fully customer-spec.ed car in the Regensburg plant and deliver it in three days. A customer could order it online or with a dealer's guidance and get the exact color, engine, transmission, stereo, wheels, interior, etc. that they wanted in three days. As orders came in, the system automatically placed orders for new parts, and even forcast and trended the usage to help keep the upstream supply chain as efficient as possible. Now THAT is how to do the car business. They've applied the same system for Mini, which is how they can get away with so many customer-configurable options in a relatively small number of relatively inexpensive cars. Ich bin echt viel netter, wenn ich nuechtern bin. Echt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 If everything about the corporate business of building and selling cars makes it hard for an average gearhead like me from buying a new car... Then I guess I won't buy a new car. And they won't make the sale. Again. And their sales will fall as other people also don't buy subarus either. If building 500 cars per year slightly differently than the rest can't be covered by LESS than 5700$ per unit (assuming they sell all of them, which they haven't) can't handle the expense, then they need to get out of the business, and let someone else try. You realize that is $2,850,000 is a fairly big chunk of money, right? For 500 cars... each year. I think this should MORE than enough to cover:the disproportionate costs of design, certification, manufacturing changes, inventory of both parts and final product, promotion, manuals, training, commission, etc., etc., etc., that accumulate for any product that is *BARELY* different. Sorry, had to add a bit there... They didn't redesign the car. They added a handful of different parts. I doubt it required much of any certification, or more than a minimum of design work, and I'll bet the manufacturing barely notices the difference between spec B and GT Limited going through the factory. Clearly the future should be a BTO (build-to-order) system where we all can get the exact car we want with minimal BS, but that's thinking logically and the new car business is anything but logical. It runs on image, asymmetrical information, emotions, lust, greed, envy, lies, and salesmanship. I completely agree with this statement. But I don't like it. If all of that makes it harder for customers to buy the cars they want to buy, I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for a company like Subaru of America, who's sales are going down, while they are already at the bottom of the marketshare list. I love my legacy as a product, but if that business can't see past it's own bureaucracy, then they need to wake up or go down. I hope they wake up. Just another company that doesn't sell PRODUCTS for appropriate money, they try to make MONEY by undergoing that 'hassle' of selling those pesky products. No sympathy at all. Just sadness to see good engineering betrayed by bureaucratic crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psi365 Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 I hate the side vents and the wheels, but like everything else about this car. It does look like it sits a little high to me though. . From what I see, the reason they don't have more paint codes for the Spec.B is to make the inventory more fungible between dealers (every paint code they offer means dealers have to buy more Spec.Bs to cover the range). Clearly the future should be a BTO (build-to-order) system where we all can get the exact car we want with minimal BS, but that's thinking logically and the new car business is anything but logical. It runs on image, asymmetrical information, emotions, lust, greed, envy, lies, and salesmanship. To my knowledge spec Bs are already pretty much bto cars. Dealers don't want to sit on them, and they don't build a ton of them so SOA makes the dealership order them with customers names (at least that was what I was told). A huge problem with BTO cars is cost. By making spec Bs a lot more standard then the normal Legacy technically they can cut down on cost because they all get the same interior, same base options and only two exterior colors (at least on 08s) they can knock them out fairly quick. If you add certain options, all colors, interior color options it brings the cost up due to it being more involoved to build the final product. to IWSS: You keep bring up an usold 07 spec B in Iowa the state of farms. How well do Subarus in general sell there? The dealership I bought my car from sat on an 06 for a long itme, sold it. They got 2 07 sBs in and one sold within a month the other became a demo that sold. My car was there first 08 sB in which they special ordered it and almost sold it under me. Another member here bought a similiar sB from them and they had gotten at least another 2 that I know of that they sold. sBs were never meant to be a mass produced version of the Legacy. They were just meant to be a band aid to the LGT crowd that wanted a little more performance (and by that I mean handling). If you think sBs are such a ripe off check out an A3 or A4. Even with employee pricing, I got a ton better value by buying my sB then A3 of even a stripped down A4. In all honesty I can't see SOA bringing a LSTi here. If they did people would still whine about something it is missing or that it costs to much as compared to something else. Then comes down to getting it to pass emissions and crash safety and all the other things. It doesn't make sense. You are also talking about lower the price of the car. Do you think that there are huge profit margins for the dealers? Even if you do reduce the price people will still want it cheaper so where does it end? It comes down to if Subaru really wants to sell more Legacys then they are going to actually have to start advertising them plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Subaru outbacks and foresters sell like CRAZY here. Legacys Tribecas and new imprezas, not so much. Most SUV buyers buy truck based SUVs around here, and actually use them to do work. Legacys don't seem to sell all that well anywhere, by the numbers. I wholeheartedly agree with you, they need to be advertized. New imprezas are getting uglier, and are no longer as affordable as they once were, so people are buying cheaper cars, or used cars more often than new imprezas. And if the Spec B was in demand, Ramsey Subaru would have traded that car off to another dealer who wanted to sell one. I don't think they ordered that one with a name in mind. This is why they normally don't stock turbos there, and why I couldn't find a single one when I was looking to buy mine. I am not suggesting that dealers take less markup, I am suggesting that SOA figures out a way to sell them for less. Because they aren't selling. And if offering fewer options is so beneficial to doing business, we'd all be driving new Model Ts, any color as long as it's black. The sure fire way for Subaru to avoid legitimate complaints (not whining... if I can't buy what I want, I don't buy it. What is whining about that?) is to do their damn research, pull their heads out, and sell a car that people want to buy, at an appropriate price that people can afford, and then tell the people about it. In other words... DO THEIR JOBS BETTER. Not stocking cars, and not offering cars with choices that EVERY OTHER DAMN MANUFACTURER IN THE MARKET OFFERS is Bullcrap. Offering a special edition with less configurability than the main trim line is also bullcrap. AMGs don't come in only one color. Nor do M BMWs. Not even chrysler SRT cars. Some of them may have fewer color choices. but they still have more than gray or grayer, and those colors are suited to performance vehicles. All this BS about internal corporate culture and costs for this, and extra effort that... is all excuses, and enabling Subaru of America to continue not competing, and continuing to decline in sales. Subaru either wants to sell cars, or they don't. This is what they do, this is their JOB, to offer cars that are compelling for people to buy. Their-way-or-the-highway option choices are not compelling. Putting the USDM WRX STI Turbo and Intake on the Legacy, with the Spec B's 6MT and Bilsteins, along with brembo brakes, and selling it in limited numbers for the same price as the WRX STI is not that damn much to ask, it wouldn't require re-certification of things that are already certified, and the engine is no different, so it would not require re-crash testing. Painting it WR Blue, or red is not that damn hard, either. It is amazing to me that so many people want to give subaru a pass for offering less choice, for more money. When is that a good idea for a company that is failing to compete? I checked an A4, I didn't buy one because it was too much money for too little of a car, both in terms of power, options, and physical size. The A3 is no different other than being even more FWD biased with it's transverse layout. I am not saying that Audi is doing it any better, but they aren't in Subaru's market position in this country. They haven't cancelled their Avants, and they haven't stopped painting A4s red, or any other color besides gray or brown. And if the Spec B is simply a GT bandaid for more handling performance, it failed miserably. Struts (even the Bilsteins themselves), springs (or coilovers), anti roll bars, and a set of new tires can transform the handling of a GT limited into something BETTER than the spec B, for less than the cost of the spec B's price increase. I want to see subaru suceed, I want to see the Legacy acheive it's technical potential. But people coddling SOA, and re-inforcing their current product strategy is the sure fire way for that not to happen. SOA needs to do more, and that pressure can only come from consumers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psi365 Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Putting the USDM WRX STI Turbo and Intake on the Legacy, with the Spec B's 6MT and Bilsteins, along with brembo brakes, and selling it in limited numbers for the same price as the WRX STI is not that damn much to ask, it wouldn't require re-certification of things that are already certified, and the engine is no different, so it would not require re-crash testing. Painting it WR Blue, or red is not that damn hard, either. It is amazing to me that so many people want to give subaru a pass for offering less choice, for more money. When is that a good idea for a company that is failing to compete? I checked an A4, I didn't buy one because it was too much money for too little of a car, both in terms of power, options, and physical size. The A3 is no different other than being even more FWD biased with it's transverse layout. I am not saying that Audi is doing it any better, but they aren't in Subaru's market position in this country. They haven't cancelled their Avants, and they haven't stopped painting A4s red, or any other color besides gray or brown. You'd be surprised reasons you would have to get a car certified for. THe B5 A4/S4 you could change coding in a control module to do things like hit the remote and it would unlock all doors, or hit and hold the remote and it would roll down all the windows and open the sunroof. The codings were all over the internet as to how to do it. At dealershiips we could get into serious trouble for doing it Audi went cheap and refused to crash test with each of the individual codings. It's supposedly a safety thing so we aren't allowed to do it even if the customer wants us to. Now the kicker is that VW Audi's parent company did crash test their cars with it and they have the ability to actually do all the codings. The changes you were saying that they should perfrom to the LGT with the intake, turbo, suspension, and turbo all would require both emissions certifacation and crash testing. Not onlly that but depending on mileage it would againist mileage/emission credits. It's not nearly as easy as you think it is to take off parts of car A for car B and it should pass because car A already did with some of the parts. Trust me I give no company a pass for anything. I didn't mind QSM and I wanted nav and for the money and the entire spec B package you get a lot of car for the buck as compared to Audi, BMW, or MB. At this point who knows what Subaru's target is anymore. I share your frustration, just towards another car company. Instead of trying to improve their products and keep their customers happy they try to shoot for the moon and have excessively over priced products. I'll agree that certain colors only get certain color interiors is completely stupid. To my knowledge other markets make spec Bs in all colors. I think part of the difference is that Subaru has a larger presence in those countries. To them the US isn't their largest market so it comes down to the take it or leave it additude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I apologize If I insinuated that people here had less than honorable motives. I just get worked up a bit when status quo seems to continue encouraging things to languish, when they could be better. And I really want the Legacy S to come to North America, and with SOA's mentality as it is, I fear it won't work. Either it will be well equipped and way too expensive, or not as well equipped as the JDM car is, and as it's price should entail. Not only that, but I had a feeling that what you describe is true. the government makes regulations which cause all sorts of bureaucratic trouble, and Subaru, and other companies actually have to pay for the testing and certifications. I have been hoping that there was some sanity to it, but evidently there is not. I should have realized that after they passed the new CAFE energy policies... The question is, if Subaru won't take the bull by the horns, and do what they need to do, and things like government regulation make that even harder, then why bother getting enthused, hopeful, or even upset? BTW, I was under the impression that the US IS in fact Subaru's largest unit sales country. Other markets have better percentages of marketshare in those markets, but I think the US is their numerically biggest market. It this atmosphere of over-regulation, over-taxation, over-priced fuel, over-leveraged consumer debt, and even southern baptist populist presidential candidates, and things like housing, cars, and the value of the dollar taking the brunt of it... Welcome back to the 1970s, in more ways than one. I just hope we don't roll the clock back further, to the 1930s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Good lord, that is under-rated. Why do you believe that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 It this atmosphere of over-regulation, over-taxation, over-priced fuel, over-leveraged consumer debt, and even southern baptist populist presidential candidates, and things like housing, cars, and the value of the dollar taking the brunt of it... I can agree with you - especially since the fuel price here today is about 7.50US$/gallon And add a tax level of about 60%... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croll326 Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 fender vents = buick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Why do you believe that? A twin-scroll turbo from the JDM side with the 2.5 liter block... The 2.5 STI breaks 300hp... with twin scroll, it could actually go even higher than that, without making spool-up slower. Turn up the bass, er I mean Boost, man! JDM twin scroll turbos are one of the reasons that the 2.0 liter engine makes as much or more power than the USDM 2.5 liter. Pair them up, and more than 310hp should be factory tuneable. maybe even up to 330. Aftermarket can probably get much more than that, with proper fuel pressure. But yet they say that it is rated at the 275hp neighborhood. Good, but probably a bit short of what it is truly capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camber Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 And if the Spec B is simply a GT bandaid for more handling performance, it failed miserably. Struts (even the Bilsteins themselves), springs (or coilovers), anti roll bars, and a set of new tires can transform the handling of a GT limited into something BETTER than the spec B, for less than the cost of the spec B's price increase. In the aftermarket, your not gong to find a better brand new street suspension setup that can be driven on all types of roads and conditions for less money. You *might* be able to tune an aftermarket suspension to a *bit* better in one area but there will be trade offs. spec. B handling upgrade over LGT: Bigger wheels( To lower the tire profile. Increase steering feel) Tophats(increase steering feel) Aluminum suspension bits(Decrease Unsprung mass. Quickens suspension response) Summer tires rear Helical LSD Upgraded struts I have have difficulty with you using the the term "BETTER"(subjective). Sure you could probably thow on a set of Hoosiers on a stock LGT and have more grip then a spec. B when you were driving at operating temperatures. However, that wouldn't be practical for a daily driver. Would you call that "BETTER"? You might have better handling in one area while maybe reamining slightly cheaper then a spec. B. However, there will be tradeoffs. You'll be losing OEM suspension refinement and overall driveability fon the streets. Have even driven a spec. B for any real length of time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grocery getter Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Don't know about the other Spec B owners...but I think the additional cost of the "spec B" is worth it. I was looking at a comparable BMW 335xi for 45k, saved the money and will be modding up the spec B to STI levels in the near future. Oh and I bought my 08 spec B for 30k out the door!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeTrout Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 IWSS - The funny thing is, I agree that SOA's product planning has their head up their a$$. There are two key things that I disagree with you about. 1. that the spec.B is overpriced relative to the LGT (and the insinuation that spec.B owners were somehow dumb or gullible to buy the car over a base GT); and 2. that the LGT (or spec.B or Legacy S if we ever see it) is overpriced in the market. I'm not going over the spec.B thing again. Yes, gray only is annoying. I just happened to luck out that I like DGM very much. The only color in Subaru's past and present Legacy pallette that I like better is RBP. You say the Legacy line needs to shift several thousand lower in price. Yet when you make comparisons to competitive vehicles, you clearly place it smack in-between the midsize econosedans (Camry, Accord, Altima, etc.) and the small luxury sedans (3-series, A4, G35, TSX, IS350, etc.). And you're right. And if you neglect Accords/Camrys stuffed to the gills with options and discounted TSXs, that's right where it's priced. From that perspective, both the LGT and LGT spec.B are priced right where they belong. They offer more value in the segment than the typical Accord/Camry and better performance value than the small lux sedans without quite as many amenities. If they were to bring the S concept as a production car, it would appropriately be just above the bottom-end small lux cars (G35, TL, IS, A4) but still undercutting the real performers in the group (only the 335i really qualifies). Assuming some discount for real purchases, $40k MSRP would be just right. People would be able to walk out the door for $37-38k. And I've driven the new G35. Looks fantastic in pictures and on paper. In person, it's dissappointing. In the driver's seat, it is even more so. Again, get rid of the perception that pricing has anything to do with cost. The deviation isn't actually that bad in the auto industry. In other industries, there truly is no relationship whatsoever. Pricing is set where the company thinks the consumer will pay. If they guess wrong, it quickly becomes apparent and the price adjusts. If they overestimate, retailers and distributors have to give discounts and rebates until the price is accepted by consumers. If they underestimate, you get the situation like what happened with the Wii, where retailers/distributors sell out and the product goes to secondary markets with a sharp markup. You can't use individual cars at an individual dealership as a market index for a product. If your local dealership still has an 07 spec.B, it's probably because they've priced it out of the ballpark with the intention of keeping it in the showroom to entice people into other cars. That's what Wentworth did here in PDX. All the other dealerships sold their spec.Bs almost as soon as they got them, many were pre-sold, and they were scrambling to make dealer trades to get more. The dealership that I went to sold three in the first month they were available to them: mine, a dealer trade for a customer who was in the dealership the day I picked mine up and tried to buy it out from under me, and another dealer trade that I helped to hook up from here on legacygt.com. From the sounds of it, any one of the 9 dealerships in the Portland area sells more Legacies than in the whole state of Iowa. This might be a better model market to gauge the value of the product. In the end, we both agree that SOA should bring a "halo car" Legacy to the US, and that by neglecting the Legacy line and limiting consumer choices within that line, they are shooting themselves in the foot. The rest is details Ich bin echt viel netter, wenn ich nuechtern bin. Echt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenc544 Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 They offer more value in the segment than the typical Accord/Camry and better performance value than the small lux sedans without quite as many amenities. I think this comes down to 2 things. How much value you place in AWD and turbo-4 vs V6. If you live south of snow belt, AWD will have a lot less value to you. In fact it might even be view as a negative because of the fuel economy handicap. Tubo-4 vs V6 really comes down to if you plan on modding or if you live at higher altitude. I live in Denver and I wanted to mod so LGT was a great bang for the buck for me, especially at $24.6k. On the other hand, I told my girlfriend's mom, who lives in FL, don't even bother looking at a Subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Subaru makes at least 3 sizes of twin scroll turbo. Which do you think the Legacy S has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickdrift Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 spec. B handling upgrade over LGT: Bigger wheels( To lower the tire profile. Increase steering feel) I dont know about pre '08, but my factory tires are exactly 1" taller than a factory GT tire, which i find completely annoying despite a purported near idential final drive ratio:rolleyes:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 IWSS - The funny thing is, I agree that SOA's product planning has their head up their a$$. There are two key things that I disagree with you about. 1. that the spec.B is overpriced relative to the LGT (and the insinuation that spec.B owners were somehow dumb or gullible to buy the car over a base GT); and 2. that the LGT (or spec.B or Legacy S if we ever see it) is overpriced in the market. I wasn't meaning that Spec B owners are anything like that. More power to you if it fits. I was meaning that Subaru is extremely stupid for making the Spec B hard to like unless you are in that special standard deviation that likes that particular combination. I wanted to like the Spec B. It should be right in my crosshairs, but due to stupid decisions, it is not. It fits you, but it should be fitted to a few more people. I'm not going over the spec.B thing again. Yes, gray only is annoying. I just happened to luck out that I like DGM very much. The only color in Subaru's past and present Legacy pallette that I like better is RBP. If the Regal Blue Pearl and Garnet Red Pearl were still offered, that would be a start. WR Blue pearl, and Solid Red would be even better. What about black? What about Pearl white, the Legacy S is a special color of white, no less, and I'll bet WRB will be available, too, in Japan. You can't use individual cars at an individual dealership as a market index for a product. If your local dealership still has an 07 spec.B, it's probably because they've priced it out of the ballpark with the intention of keeping it in the showroom to entice people into other cars. After I bought my Legacy GT, they tried to sell me on that particular Spec B when they first received it. (mere weeks after they didn't have it or any other GTs on the lot for me to buy) they were asking full price. Then in the summer, it was marked down to $33k. (with spoiler and mats, etc.. it stickered at almost $35k.) It has been marked down *below* $32K for at least the last three months. I don't think they are all that keen to keep this car on the lot. It hasn't been in the showroom for at least 6 months, and has been covered in snow all winter. (each time I have seen it anyway, I like to check out new stock, and they have mazdas, pontiacs, and real porsche eye-candy, too.) In the end, we both agree that SOA should bring a "halo car" Legacy to the US, and that by neglecting the Legacy line and limiting consumer choices within that line, they are shooting themselves in the foot. The rest is details The devil is in the details. Always is. But you are right, we are mostly on the same page. From Camber: In the aftermarket, your not gong to find a better brand new street suspension setup that can be driven on all types of roads and conditions for less money. You *might* be able to tune an aftermarket suspension to a *bit* better in one area but there will be trade offs. C'mon... we've been through this all before. The Spec B is NOT a different car than the Legacy GT. And I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the differences aren't THAT big. The GT Limited isn't exactly a stock truck compared to the almighty spec B. spec. B handling upgrade over LGT: Bigger wheels( To lower the tire profile. Increase steering feel) I have 18x8 Rota Torques in Hypersilver. One of five sets custom finished that way. Wider AND lower profile. Next. Tophats(increase steering feel) Honestly... you think strut top hats make a world of difference??? a good alignment makes more difference. Aluminum suspension bits(Decrease Unsprung mass. Quickens suspension response) Last I heard the aluminum parts weren't all that much lighter. They can be had and fitted, though. Summer tires - Have 'em. Again, on full inch wider wheels. rear Helical LSD - I have a viscous LSD in the Legacy, and a Torsen in the Miata. Honestly... not a world of difference. If I had a choice buying a new car, I would choose the torsen, but in the real world, LSD is LSD 98% of the time. Upgraded struts - When I say one can do it cheaper, I am including the Bilstein struts from the Spec B, and their top hats. AND better than stock aftermarket springs. Lowering the car an inch (Spec B rides higher than GT not lower) lowers CG and roll-center. That has real effects on geometry and handling. I have have difficulty with you using the the term "BETTER"(subjective). Sure you could probably thow on a set of Hoosiers on a stock LGT and have more grip then a spec. B when you were driving at operating temperatures. However, that wouldn't be practical for a daily driver. Would you call that "BETTER"? I am not talking about hoosiers and burnouts. I am talking about aftermarket wheels and tires, both wider wheels than 18x7, and better AND more affordable summer tires than RE050s. like Toyo T1-Rs. Tires are another discussion. Bilsteins, top hats (because they won't fit otherwise), and ion progressive rate springs. Whiteline, Cusco, or otherwise modestly upgraded anti-roll bars and links. One could probably install that for a lot less than $5700. And have slightly more color choice with the GT Limited, and no mandatory nav. The 6-speed may be nice, but the 5-speed is no slouch, Believe me. Add an AP with stage 2 with exhaust, not only will it handle better. it will be faster doing it. And still probably under budget. Again, it all depends on the details, and who those details fit. Nav and gray paint don't fit me, especially not for more debt outlay to get it. You might have better handling in one area while maybe remaining slightly cheaper then a spec. B. However, there will be tradeoffs. You'll be losing OEM suspension refinement and overall driveability fon the streets. Have even driven a spec. B for any real length of time? I guess every tuner ever to turn a wrench on a sport sedan has just ruined the "OEM refinement" and the "overall driveability". Bunk. Well chosen and well tuned aftermarket can be just as good or better than OEM upgrades. Otherwise the aftermarket industry would be a shadow of it's actual size. If OEM refinement and overall driveability were so important, why would companies like RUF and Alpina, and many others exist? OEM refinement of Porsche and BMW is much better than Subaru, which I doubt anyone here argues. Do you want to let me drive your spec B for a few thousand miles??? Didn't think so, and neither does any one else. You aren't driving my car either. I have test driven one, though. The difference was there, no doubt, but it was not the night-and-day difference you guys seem to claim that it is. the difference was much more pronounced between my car and the Outback 3.0R wagon loaner that I got for a day, than between my car and a spec B. I understand the defensiveness, but please. We are all Legacy fans here, and you don't have to justify your purchase to me or anyone else. If you like it, fine. That doesn't make it somehow a supercar to defend your purchasing decision. This rampant one-upmanship of the Spec B over the GT Limited isn't becoming. We are on the same team, as it were. I wasn't attacking Spec B buyers personally, although I do apologize if my fervor presented itself that way. But I was taking a bit of issue with the insinuation that the Spec B is just a handling band-aid for the GT. The GT isn't that bad, and doesn't require much to be pretty darn impressive. And the price increase on the Spec B isn't all suspension. Part of it is NAV, and some of it is what PSI describes as non-cost ingredients, like market placement and exclusivity, whether or not I agree with that motive, or the other restrictions that come along with it. As I said, I should be the biggest proponent of the Spec B on this forum. That sort of sport upgrade should be aimed squarely at enthusiasts like me. But due to the "details" it isn't. I like the Spec B's suspension. But you can do as much or better with the GT for less money, especially without the NAV system for the GT. and I wouldn't trade GRP for gray paint if you covered the cost increase. I'd rather tune the red car. I just wish Subaru didn't make that choice for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkonmonk Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Here are some links to the pictures posted and some more of a legacy I found on the same website. http://www.carview.co.jp/tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/default.asp http://www.carview.co.jp/tas/2008/take_car/sclabo_tokyo_blomulus/default.asp Monk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camber Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I dont know about pre '08, but my factory tires are exactly 1" taller than a factory GT tire, which i find completely annoying despite a purported near idential final drive ratio:rolleyes:. You realize I'm taking about the aspect ratio between the sidewall and the part of the tire that contacts the road? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HangKen Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Ahhh, I hope this comes out!! So Pretty it hurts my eyes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camber Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 C'mon... we've been through this all before. The Spec B is NOT a different car than the Legacy GT. And I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the differences aren't THAT big. The GT Limited isn't exactly a stock truck compared to the almighty spec B. spec. B handling upgrade over LGT: Bigger wheels( To lower the tire profile. Increase steering feel) I have 18x8 Rota Torques in Hypersilver. One of five sets custom finished that way. Wider AND lower profile. Next. At least what $800 new? Not a big Rota fan myself... Tophats(increase steering feel) Honestly... you think strut top hats make a world of difference??? a good alignment makes more difference. There is a reason why there are three different tophats for the Legacy. I guess you know more then Subaru? $160 Aluminum suspension bits(Decrease Unsprung mass. Quickens suspension response) Last I heard the aluminum parts weren't all that much lighter. They can be had and fitted, though. Well a a few pounds in lossed in unsprung mass actually does make a lot bigger difference then losing a few pounds of sprung mass. You know that right? I guess subaru goes through the trouble of making much more expensive parts for marginal gains just for fun. $1000 from japan parts but I think I've seen the pieces for as low as $600 Summer tires - Have 'em. Again, on full inch wider wheels. Cheap 245/35/18 summer tires $700 est You'll notice more harshness with a 35 profile tire and much less resistance to damaging a wheel. It should give your more grip depending on the tire. rear Helical LSD - I have a viscous LSD in the Legacy, and a Torsen in the Miata. Honestly... not a world of difference. If I had a choice buying a new car, I would choose the torsen, but in the real world, LSD is LSD 98% of the time. I was just going to stop writing a response when I read this..... If you can't tell the difference between a VLSD equipped car and mechanical one(and its advantages. Espeically in a heavy sedan) you lose all priviledges on commenting on tuning.... Don't know what the R180 Subaru HLSD would retail for but basic quaife is about $1500. Upgraded struts - When I say one can do it cheaper, I am including the Bilstein struts from the Spec B, and their top hats. AND better than stock aftermarket springs. Lowering the car an inch (Spec B rides higher than GT not lower) lowers CG and roll-center. That has real effects on geometry and handling. Bilstein HD(20% stiffer but less stoke OEM bilsteins) and springs? $900 You'll lose ride quality but decrease body movements slightly.. Grand Total for IWSS LGT spec. B "BETTER" suspension --------------------------------------------------------------------- $3200 + labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation) + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days) $4700(LSD) + labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days) Sway bars? Add another 300-400 $3600+ labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation) $5100(LSD)+ labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days) If your going to upgrade sways get the reinforcement bracket to stop yor from breaking OEM one. $3690+ labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days) $5190(LSD)+labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days).. Labour is a contentious issue... If you had someone else do all the work. There is absolutely no way your going to have a price advantage. However, I know people will say that most of this stuff is shade tree mechanic level. Altough, most people that buy a brand new car aren't eager to rip it up to add a bunch as soon as it rolls off the dealers lot. I'm sorry, I do not see a price advatange over modding a LGT to spec. B(while introducing unwanted NVH in a daily driver) handling level. Then your still forgetting interior touches, NAV, 6MT and single plate flywheel. If you want to compare the overall value of modding an LGT to spec. B levels. I guess every tuner ever to turn a wrench on a sport sedan has just ruined the "OEM refinement" and the "overall driveability". Bunk. Well chosen and well tuned aftermarket can be just as good or better than OEM upgrades. Otherwise the aftermarket industry would be a shadow of it's actual size. If OEM refinement and overall driveability were so important, why would companies like RUF and Alpina, and many others exist? OEM refinement of Porsche and BMW is much better than Subaru, which I doubt anyone here argues. RUF and Alpina? Well going to them is the quickest way to spend more then the MSRP of your car, in basic mods. Yes, you can get aftermarket parts that are better but most of the time your going to have to pay more. I seriously, think you haven't driven a spec. B or weren't paying attention to the ride and how the suspension copes perfectly with any thing that gets thrown at it. However, after reading your "BUNK" comments about LSDs, I take your words with a grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Geeze...lets just all get along...for one thread at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigInALegacy Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Wow... this turned into the Spec B debate pretty fast! Seriously... if your happy with your car, then who gives a s*** what anyone else thinks! They're not driving it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camber Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I'm still trying to figure out why people got out of the way to needlessly bash the spec. B in non sequitur threads... Did a spec. B sleep with you mom and broke up your parents marriage or somethng? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigInALegacy Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Different folks different strokes! Spec B...GT AT...MT Whatever makes you happy. Bottom line is, we all love our LGT's which i why we're all on this site. Oh... and were not getting anything cool that Japan will... its in SOA's strategic planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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