Deer Killer Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 [quote name='ewc'] [img]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjE3MjYxNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] #1 We have a plastic manifold #2 A wire from one end of an aluminum manifold to the other is nothing but dead weight. #3 This is not a grounding problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 ewc, thanks for the photos. Man that's some HUGE gauge wire you are running there. Just for shiite's and giggles, I picked up some 10 gauge wire and a couple contact U- type little clampy things, I think they call them "spades" and a set of crimpers from Pep Boys. Total cost: $16 I'll try going from the negative terminal to a couple bolts as grounds soon and see what it does. It's worth a shot, and I needed a pair of crimpers anyway. I'm guessing I should remove the positive battery mount first correct? I don't want to get shocked, or is that not necessary? And if so, will that reset my ECU and it's going to need to relearn everything? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 FWIW I've done the grounding mod to all five Subaru's and it was the best investment, cheapest mod I've ever done. Tremendous bang for the buck IMHO. All are five point grounds: One on each side of the intake bolted into the intake itself; one to the alternator - at the top cover mounting bolt; one to the left front strut tower, and; one to the right front strut tower ground strap point (strap that supports the 4EAT FWD Fuse point) on the rear of the strut tower. Can't recall if there is a 5EAT fuse location on the new 05's I used #10 gauge TNNH (blue coated, twisted copper wire) and nylon tie wraps. All contact point paint was removed and the area and bolts/washers were dressed, the positive and negative battery terminals and connectors were both dressed, every bolt and washer was dressed and every contact point coated with dielectric paste to inhibit moisture intrusion and corrosion. On reconnect, I spray coated each point with lithium grease to further isolate it from the elements. I also took apart all the existing, visible ground locations in the engine compartment and removed the paint and/or dressed each bolt, washer and mating surface before reassembly, using the dielectric paste and lithium grease to reseal the point. This process takes about 30-45 minutes for each car if you already have the materials and the tools (Dremel, wire cutters/stripper, socket or box-end wrenches (10, 12, 13 mm), some dielectric paste, and some top coat grease. I went through the ECU reset process, (disconnect the battery from the car, wait at least 1/2 hour [i](with the battery disconnected)[/i] , restart the car and let it run for 5-10 minutes at idle, shut it off, restart and drive gently around the block (like you're trying to break it in sloooowly), shut it down again and when you're ready to drive it again, drive it the way you typically drive it.) I monitored the ECU relearn process for each car to see if the hesitation, sluggishness, etc., returned. All the hesitation, stumble and rough running "stuff" disappeared immediately or nearly immediately, and has not returned. The most noticeable improvement was the 99 L Wagon. That engine became the most silky smooth of all the Subes in the stable (engine revs smoothly, transmission shifts more smoothly and precisely) and it zorches to redline like I've never seen it do. This is also the same car that had serious hesitation and lag (even after a fresh tuneup) and three different trips to the dealer where they applied the "throttle body cleaning" to "fix" the problem. That "fix" worked for no more than 20 minutes after I picked up the car. The 5spd GT also has a noticeable quietness to it and runs to redline without skipping a beat or bogging anywhere along it's power band. Something it did not do before the SPG. All of the cars continue to improve (steady improvement with ECU relearn) and are not exhibiting any of the previous behaviors. Engines/transmissions (4EAT) even seem quieter somehow. Lights no longer dim at idle, radio reception is clean and crisp, windows roll up/down faster and electrical accessories all work better. Bottom line - all good and well worth the time and minimal investment in time and materials. If I were to do it again today, I'd do the daisy chain approach using 4 AWG copper stranded wire with individual pieces soldered/covered with heat shrink tubing just to keep the number of wires running off of the battery to a nice clean minimum. Hope this helps. SBT - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 I noticed this problem test driving an Outback 2.5 turbo today, so it is not just limited to the Legacy platform. Overall the only thing I didn't like about the Outback, but it's a serious enough concern to make me rethink the first year in the US for these engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 Subietonic, Thanks for the explanation as to what you did.. As stated, I bought 10 gauge wire from Pep Boys and a crimper. But I have a question for you... When terminating them to the negative battery port, can the several different wires come together in the same place? Or do I have to separate them so each ground wire is touching a different part of the negative battery terminal? Is there something better than the cheapy U or O adapters that hook around or onto a bolt. They seem flimsy and I question their long term strength. If there's something better and more sturdy to connect the 10 gauge wire to the negative battery terminal with, I'd love to know. By the by...what's dielectric paste? Can it be bought at Pep Boys too? Is there a protective "cap" that can be had to cover the negative battery port, like the positive one is? Oh, one last question. For the WRX guys, they seemed to see best results by going from the negative battery terminal to the ground on the intake manifold. I'm no mechanic, and not familiar with where this is on the LGT. Could somebody point out where the intake manifold ground wire or similiar is on the LGT. Pic would be GREAT! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Driver72, I didn't include it in the writeup but I did use two sizes of gold plated circular (closed) end terminals. Some use the open spade lug type terminals. I don't think it matters. The two sizes were 1/4" and 3/8" inside diameter. On the smaller bolts, I used the 1/4" and on the larger bolts I used the 3/8", including the negative battery terminal itself. For the battery side, I removed the negative terminal clamp bolt from the terminal itself, cleaned that all up, slipped the bolt back into the terminal and then, one by one, I slipped my ground wires on to the end of the bolt, putting dielectric paste between and around each of the individual wire terminals. When I got all five on, I put the nut on and tightened it down. Since the wire terminals are "crimped" on, the crimps are much thicker than the wires themselves so you kind of have to make a fan of the terminals around the the clamp bolt and then tighten it down. Using dialectric paste or grease [size=2]on electrical connectors helps prevent corrosion and increases reliability. It:[/size] [list] [*][size=2]Prevents [/size]Electrical Failures From Moisture And Corrosion [*]Waterproofs [*]Seals [*]Insulates [*]Protects Bulbs, Sockets and Trailer Plugs [/list]It's available at almost any auto parts store, i.e., Kragen, AutoZone, PepBoys or any RV store. I bought a 4 oz tube at Kragen. The counter guy may know it as light bulb or trailer connection grease. I used CRC Lithium grease from a spray can, also bought at Kragen. This particular product has the thin nozzle extender which enables you to control the direction and width of the flow as you spray it on and around the base of the connection points including the battery terminals. Since I pulled out the battery to clean up the factory ground wire immediately behind the left front headlight, I cleaned up both battery terminals and when I reinstalled the battery again, I gave the positive terminal a good shot of the lithium grease too before I popped its cover back on. I've not seen a negative terminal cover, perhaps one off the positive side would work. As Deer Killer mentioned, the 05 LGT has a plastic air intake so I'm sure there would be no benefit to making a single point ground connection anywhere on the intake itself. That said, you might consider attaching it at an engine block location below the intake where you find a good metal grounding point. I'll be interested to hear whether this helps or not. Still haven't caught up with the local Subaru tech. Was going to go have a chat with him this afternoon but ended up going to the driving range instead now that the downpours have ceased a little. Keep us posted. SBT - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Even the WRX had studdering problems (it's just timing issue and the car being a rich AFR bastard). As long as you ease on the car, it's fine. It's definitely not a grounding problem.. and it's not an electrical ETC problem and it has nothing to do with the plastic manifold. My take is that the fuel pressure isnt high enough or it's TOO high (a little too much fuel in the AFR mixture during that RPM range). Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emlevins Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Just an update - I called my dealer today to set up a 3K oil change and installation of the STS and asked if he had heard about the shuddering problem. He did, and had heard plenty. And, he said he had been in touch with SOA tech but that they are still maintaining that it is just a characteristic of the car. But, he did say they were aware of it and could come up with a reflash to remedy it but he said there were no guarantees. I guess we just wait...or take the reflash into our own hands? 05 SWP Legacy GT Limited (aka "Pearl")- 5MT AP - Stage 2 Protuned (238/284) - wife driven 07 BMW 335xi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 In the latest edition of Automobile mag there are some negative comments on their "long term test"GT Wagon about acceleration anamolies between 2000 and 4000 rpm. Maybe this kind of negative press will motivate Subaru to come up with a fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 NICE catch. I didn't see that. For those who don't get Automobile Mag, here's the exact wording: Report at 962 miles in the log book, "Curiously hesitant power delivery between 2000 and 4000 rpm, otherwise I like it." Subaru....are you listening? Nationally published magazine printing the "stuttering" problem!!! Now, maybe they won't think I am crazy for apparently being the first person to report this (and receive a "case number") with SOA about this. I encouraged them to read this thread I started, but it's doubtful they have. I'll pass on this info about Automobile Magazine to them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmos Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 for those without the mag, anyone care to scan it in?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 there was another review that said the same thing.. the original stutter thread has the quote.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan42025 Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 About time Sub (or STi) did some serious work on the ECU and provided real-time diagnostics computer and screen. I realise this can be got at from various aftermarket dealers (eg, Ecutek) but I feel it's time such technologies be made standard for high end cars like the GT and up and coming STi. I lilke to know what's happening under the hood and elsewhere so I can judge for myself better as to what is happenning to the car's performance over time. When I get the time I will buy something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutrino60 Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 It looks like the issue discussed most in this thread has been uneven acceleration in the middle RPM range. I haven't noticed that in my LGT yet. The original post seems to be more about stalling while pulling away from a stop at low RPMs. I have noticed that. The LGT is difficult to manouver at low speeds. When I have had to do back and forth turn-arounds in a tight space in a way that the engine doesn't stall, I notice some burnt clutch smell. And I do notice some stall pulling away from stops unless I do it briskly with clutch release at higer RPMs than my Toyota pickup requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 [quote name='Driver72']NICE catch. I didn't see that. For those who don't get Automobile Mag, here's the exact wording: Report at 962 miles in the log book, "Curiously hesitant power delivery between 2000 and 4000 rpm, otherwise I like it." Subaru....are you listening? Nationally published magazine printing the "stuttering" problem!!! Now, maybe they won't think I am crazy for apparently being the first person to report this (and receive a "case number") with SOA about this. I encouraged them to read this thread I started, but it's doubtful they have. I'll pass on this info about Automobile Magazine to them as well.[/QUOTE] On the other hand, when Consumer Reports tested the Legacy, they had no complaints about acceleration stuttering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted November 19, 2004 Author Share Posted November 19, 2004 Well, they might have, but not commented on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub-attraction Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I'm not meaning to change the subjects direction but does anyone know if the Forester XT has ever exhibited the stuttering problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrodwagon Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I remember reading an '05 LGT review in which the guy alluded to a "flat spot below 3,000 rpm". I think it was from some newspaper in Oregon - I'm trying to find it now. Just like a stutter, a flat spot is hard to confuse with turbo lag... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitestar Pilot Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 [quote name='Sub-attraction']I'm not meaning to change the subjects direction but does anyone know if the Forester XT has ever exhibited the stuttering problem?[/QUOTE] That's a good question. Exact same 250 horsepower motor, and transmission? Would be interesting to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Share Posted November 20, 2004 The FXT uses a different, smaller (less boost) turbo and most likely the ECU is programmed differently than ours. I'm wondering if it has something to do with the Drive by Wire throttle getting confused and sending bad/mixed messages and therefore the computer is trying to compensate and that's where the 2 or 3 stutters/hiccups come from. I'm not sure if the FXT uses a drive by wire throttle either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer1155 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 This is my sixth turbo car. They all have some compromise in the power delivery. The "studdering" as it's called typiacally is only below 2500-3000 rpms. It is my opinion that the computer is dumping way too much fuel in. I have noticed that now that the weather is cold it has substancially diminished, whereas when the weather was hot it was a lot worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan42025 Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 [quote name='spencer1155']It is my opinion that the computer is dumping way too much fuel in. I have noticed that now that the weather is cold it has substancially diminished, whereas when the weather was hot it was a lot worse.[/QUOTE] Hmm, I wonder if that's why when I ease on the pedal slowly at 0 to slow speeds the car feels more responsive. Or is it the fly by wire? Anyone managed to turn off the filtering on the accelerator to see the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graff48 Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 I seem to remember feeling the stutter in the FXT I test drove a while back. WHen I first felt it in my LGT, I figured it was a characteristic of the engine. I found a thread in a Forrester forum discussing this problem. [url="http://www.subaruforester.com/viewtopic.php?t=3302&highlight=stutter"]http://www.subaruforester.com/viewtopic.php?t=3302&highlight=stutter[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 In their test drive of a Legacy GT Wagon (auto trans) the Edmunds staff had this observation: "In addition, several of our editors noticed a slight surging under moderate acceleration at about highway speeds 60-75 mph. Add to all of this the fact that the five-speed automatic seems to shift too frequently, and the result can be quite taxing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 FYI from shiv of vishnu tuning on i-club [quote]We've found the problem with the factoy ECU mapping. It's a combination of throttle-by-wire calibration and closed/open loop switchover parameters that creates all those odd hesitations at lower rpm and at partial throttle. In fact, it's the partial throttle performance of the reflash which stands out above all else [img]http://www.i-club.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif[/img] shiv"[/quote] Now, subaru please fix the damn problem yourselves before I void my warranty :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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