Boostjunkie Posted December 16, 2006 Author Share Posted December 16, 2006 I actually have then on my car right now They were looking so shiny and pretty I couldn't resist I forgot to take pics off the car, but have a couple on the car. I'll get them up later today since I just got back from the drag strip. Initial impressions are that deleting the pillowballs make a considerable difference in the amount of noise and harshness transmitted. The car seems to be as quiet as stock over bumps and there is less road noise transfered to the cabin. The valving in the front struts is very good. I'm not sure about the rears yet. I'm going to try some softer rear springs first and see what that does. The ride height set to minimum is basically an exact match for a stock LGT, but the rear is about 1/2" higher as is. I think that with the slightly softer rear springs it will come down to stock rear height. If it doesn't we'll shorten the shock body a touch and lengthen the bottom mount. There will be no issue duplicating the stock height of an OB with the coilovers as configured. That's it for now, I'll keep you guys posted as development continues both on my LGT and our test OBXT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyd2005 Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 When you say minimum height, did you take out the lower lockring and just tighten the lower body against the spring perch lockring? Or even use the lower body as the lockring for the spring perch? If you add that to a little bit of spring preload, could you drop the front by 0.5 inch? Most of the coilover springs that I have seen have settled by another 0.5 inch after a week or so. That might give a little more room for the preload as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 Well you guys can disregard what I said about the rear ride height and calibration of the rear dampeners. Some noob mechanic (who shall remain nameless... ) had over 1" or some 400 lbs of preload on the rear coilovers. Basically, I... errrrrr.... "the mechanic" should have known something was up when he had to jack the rear coilovers to compress them to line up with the lower mounting holes on the rear hubs. Once the excess preload was removed, my LGT sits pretty much exactly like a stock car. I think my floor to fender measurements are now 26" rear and about 26.5" front (on 225/40/18 tires which add about .25" to that measurement compared to the stock 215/45/17 tires). That might even be a little bit lower than stock, although not much. The handling and ride of the car also greatly improved. I'm going to drive around quite a bit tommorrow and takes some notes and then they will be going on an OBXT on Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Sounds good! From the LGT side, I would love a slightly lower than stock to stock height with performance benefits. Add in the ability to raise it during the winter and I am hooked Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyd2005 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Paul, is the hatch area of the OB the same as the LGT wagon? If it is, you won't be able to adjust the rear dampers without cutting slits in the side panel. Will the MR damper control relocation kit work? You may want to pick up some in various lengths and try finding a good location to fit them on the OB. I've given up on tryng to adjust my dampers in my wagon. The next time I drop my coilovers, I'll get a set of these damper relocators. Just need to find a place to locate them. I know that you can cut the panel like some people did, but I would rather not do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 I actually picked up a set of the dampener adjust knobs for the test car. I'll see where they fit best and post up some pics. BTW, took the car for a drive around town and I was very impressed. The ride is still firmer than stock, but much more compliant than the LGT spec coilovers I was using. I haven't had a chance to toss if around some corners since it's been raining, but the car still feels nice and responsive out on the road. Probably the highest praise I can give them is when I asked my wife what she thought of the ride, she said: "Can we keep these?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 After letting the coilovers settle overnight, my ride height on the OB coilovers is now 1/8" lower than a stock LGT, so it's basically stock height since that's really not noticable without a measuring tape. Here are some pics, please excuse the fact that my car is absolutely filthy right now. http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y207/Pisadong/pic2.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y207/Pisadong/pic1.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y207/Pisadong/pic3.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftride Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 sweet...now get those things on an OBXT stat! *vb gallery* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 sweet...now get those things on an OBXT stat! They will be coming off my car in the next hour or so and going on an OBXT tommorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Nevermind, found the info I wanted in these posts: http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=841231&postcount=124 http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=873568&postcount=153 http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=908825&postcount=177 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2sexz32 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 this definitely sounds awesome! n im really glad to hear that it maintains a close-to-stock ride height... the lgt sits low enough, just need to fill the wheel gaps in w/ some bigger tires! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 If I'm reading this all correctly... MR's LGT-specific coilovers give you a range of stock height to somewhat lower (2 inches? dunno). Spring rates are 6kg front, 8kg rear. OBXT-specifc coilovers give a range of stock LGT height to +2 inches. Spring rates are still TBD but will likely be starting with 5f/6r and will not likely go stiffer thant he LGT setup. Stock rates are 3.5f / 5.5r for comparison purposes. For my LGT I could see getting MR LGT coilovers with softer springs (4/6?) and low damping settings, as I like the idea of being able to lower a bit and restore full ride height in the winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 If I'm reading this all correctly... MR's LGT-specific coilovers give you a range of stock height to somewhat lower (2 inches? dunno). Spring rates are 6kg front, 8kg rear. OBXT-specifc coilovers give a range of stock LGT height to +2 inches. Spring rates are still TBD but will likely be starting with 5f/6r and will not likely go stiffer thant he LGT setup. Stock rates are 3.5f / 5.5r for comparison purposes. For my LGT I could see getting MR LGT coilovers with softer springs (4/6?) and low damping settings, as I like the idea of being able to lower a bit and restore full ride height in the winter. That is pretty much correct. The MR LGT coilovers allow LGT owners to maintain a close to stock ride height or lower their cars about 2", or anything in between. Stock stock spring rates are currently 6F/8R. They also feature pillowball (spherical metal bearing) upper mounts front and rear with camber adjustment plates on the front. This allows for faster and more stable steering response and the ability to maximize the contact patch of the front tires. They are designed for a performance minded driver, who wants the ability to lower their car. The OB coilovers were designed to allow an OB to run at full stock ride height (even a little higher if desired), while also offering the ability to lower the car to roughly the same height as an LGT. Spring rates have yet to be finalized. The OB coilovers reuse the stock front upper mounts, and have rubber isolated rear upper mounts. This reduces the amount of impact harshness and road noise transmitted to the cabin. The OB coilovers fit perfectly on the LGT as well, but do not allow for much lowering due to their longer bodies. They will suit LGT drivers who are not seeking to lower their car, but want the performance benefits of a firmer matched spring and dampener combo. Considering the dearth of strut options for the LGT, this is a nice option. The dampening adjustability and ability to raise the car for the winter season is a nice bonus. One last note, many people seem hung up on spring rates. Ride quality is affected far more by dampening and bushing compliance than spring rate. I've run springs ranging from 6 kg/mm to 12 kg/mm on my car and noticed remarkably little difference in ride quality. Springs are there to support the weight of the car. If someone were to put 4 kg/mm springs on the front, the car would be sitting firmly on the bumpstops at rest unless you dialed in a ton of preload. Given the slightly higher weight of the OB, we are starting with the stock LGT spring rates combined with approx. 15% softer dampening. I was very impressed with the ride on my LGT and I hope our OBXT tester agrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulderguy Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 I would disagree. And while I'm not a suspension expert, I've been thru 3 sets of springs on this OB with adj Tokicos and they all had markedly different ride qualities. There's a lot of minunderstandng about how springs & struts interact to produce the handling characteristics specific to each combo. A lot of ppl think adjustable shocks = adjustable suspension. Uh uh. It's just adjustable damping. The purpose isn't to dial in for the type of driving you're going to do, just the amount of damping given your spring choice. Ideally you'll find a single setting that matches those struts to the spring & leave it there. Changing it will either produce over/underdamping. You may have occasions to do this, but not normally. It doesn't make it necessarily softer or harder - that's what the spring rates do - it's all about how fast the springs ramp up their resistance that determines how much jolt you feel when you hit a big bump. Springs also determine body roll rates when one side is compressed more than the other - a stiffer spring will compress less, hence less body roll. The struts play into this by affecting how quickly the spring moves & how long the spring is allowed to react to compression/expansion. So struts do play a role in determining how badly a pot hole hurts but it's a nominal role (compared to springs) unless they're set to extremes. Struts do not affect body roll or squat/dive except to slow it down. They don't provide resistance. I can take a soft set of springs & make them painful over rough roads by setting the damping very high. But go thru a long sweeping turn & the car will still exhibit tons of body roll. The car will dive under braking & squat when launching, but much slower. The STI Pinks were like this. Conversely, I can take a very stiff set of springs & set the struts at low damping. The little bumps won't be bad but the big ones will still hurt. The car will bounce over bumps & undulations like a boat on the water. It will have very little body roll & very little squat/dive and will corner like mad. Talking about Swift springs now. You can definitely make the ride quality of any spring suffer with overdamping. You can't necessarily improve the ride quality of hard springs with underdamping. So IMO, it's all about the springs for ride quality & performance. And to get it right the struts have to be properly matched to those springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulderguy Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 If there's one thing I've learned from this board it's to take most "reviews" with a big grain of salt. I'm so tired of hearing about race coilovers that are "firm but not harsh" and springs that are "much stiffer but keep the stock ride quality." As if the laws of physics would allow that. I think the M5 is the holy grail for most. I've heard that description about some very different combos. I've concluded that most ppl are convincing themselves by convincing others & thereby justifying their choices. That's a total assumption, I know, flame at will. BTW, I've made the above claim too, probably for the same reasons. I'd disagree with myself now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulderguy Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 One other note - Ideally we'd all like it to ride like a Caddy over rough roads & handle like a Miata in the twisties. It ain't gonna happen. It's never going to feel like an M5 - that's why ppl pay the big bucks for that car - geometry & engineering. What can happen is that a well-engineered setup can give improved handling while still retaining respectable road manners. You can't improve handling w/o hurting ride quality thru springs/struts - those qualities are diametrically opposed. But there is a sweet spot there that this car would be much happier at & I believe these guys are in touch with what we're looking for and how to best achieve it. I've got high hopes for the coilover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 I'd wager that you could get 90% of the M5ness if you found the spring rates, scaled them appropriately for the relative weight of the M5 and whichever Subaru, put the M5 dampers on a shock dyno and found Subaru-compatible dampers (with appropriately scaled dyno curves). And get the same tires, if they're available in the right size. Perhaps it wouldn't perform as well (in the racing sense) due to different geometries, but matching the tires and the shock/spring behavior should get you most of the way there. Sure, there's probably some hard-to-quantify stuff involved, but in light of the pervasive B.S. like Boulderguy was talking about, I can't help but think that the basic math/physics stuff is highly underrated. And how much of the M5ness do you think comes from people (spending a fortune and then) convincing themselves and convincing others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 15% softer dampening than a stock LGT?? How does this translate into cornering compliance and body roll? I mean, I would expect it to be at least as good as a stock LGT, if not somewhat better. Not 15% softer than the stock suspension from the LGT. 15% softer dampening than the Megan Racing LGT coilovers. The dampeners in both the OB and LGT applications are quite a bit firmer than their stock equivalents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 BTW the OB coilovers went on to the car of a local OB owner. We went for a quick drive through a little canyon road and he was all smiles. We both found the ride to be confortable but vastly more controlled than stock. I guessed at the ride height settings and we ended up with his car sitting about .5" lower than stock. There is ample room in the adjustments to go quite a bit higher if so desired. I've very pleased with the OB coilovers so far. I'm anxious to hear back from the owner of the test car to see how he feels about them after he has run them for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garandman Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 BTW the OB coilovers went on to the car of a local OB owner. We went for a quick drive through a little canyon road and he was all smiles. We both found the ride to be confortable but vastly more controlled than stock. I guessed at the ride height settings and we ended up with his car sitting about .5" lower than stock. There is ample room in the adjustments to go quite a bit higher if so desired. I've very pleased with the OB coilovers so far. I'm anxious to hear back from the owner of the test car to see how he feels about them after he has run them for a while. .5" lower than an LGT, or a stock OBW? I'd like to drop mine 25-30mm, back to about the height of the previous Gen. Who Dares Wins スバル Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 .5" lower than an LGT, or a stock OBW? I'd like to drop mine 25-30mm, back to about the height of the previous Gen. 1/2" lower than a stock 05+ OBXT. There is plenty of adjustment room left to raise it over 1" more from there. You can also easily lower it 2" from stock OB height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLStormin Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 2" lower FTW!! All the time spent looking at peoples cars on these forums has me tired of looking at my wheel gaps... If the MR coilovers turn out to be the shiznit then I'll consider wheels/tires and other mods, otherwise I probably won't go any further with this car & sell/trade it Keep the feedback coming guys - thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLStormin Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 BTW - any PICTURES??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forestir Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 +1. Physics FTW. I'd wager that you could get 90% of the M5ness if you found the spring rates, scaled them appropriately for the relative weight of the M5 and whichever Subaru, put the M5 dampers on a shock dyno and found Subaru-compatible dampers (with appropriately scaled dyno curves). And get the same tires, if they're available in the right size. Perhaps it wouldn't perform as well (in the racing sense) due to different geometries, but matching the tires and the shock/spring behavior should get you most of the way there. Sure, there's probably some hard-to-quantify stuff involved, but in light of the pervasive B.S. like Boulderguy was talking about, I can't help but think that the basic math/physics stuff is highly underrated. And how much of the M5ness do you think comes from people (spending a fortune and then) convincing themselves and convincing others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainmorgan Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 2" lower FTW!! All the time spent looking at peoples cars on these forums has me tired of looking at my wheel gaps... If the MR coilovers turn out to be the shiznit then I'll consider wheels/tires and other mods, otherwise I probably won't go any further with this car & sell/trade it Keep the feedback coming guys - thanks Seriously, the only problem with the outback, is that even with larger wheels, like 18" and 19" they still look tiny and akward because the car is so much higher. I love mine dropped. It looks like a normal car again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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