Car and Driver article

[deimos]

Your issues went welll beyond about everyone else's problems, and I don't see it as a "bad batch"......you got a "bad car".

 

Me, several others on this board, and evidently the editors of c&d, probably others that dont use forums.

[rporter]

Me, several others on this board, and evidently the editors of c&d, probably others that dont use forums.

 

Not sure I understand. The C&D car had what I call "typical' issues that they bulk of us have had.....or will have. Clutch is a question mark.....that's more driver-related.

 

I don't hear of folks needing to have their engines rebuilt. Yours is a "bad car", and not anywhere near the norm.

 

You bring up an key point about others not on the forum. As with other car lists/forums, we sometimes forget that we are a minority, and are more involved with the cars than the typical driver .

[IwannaSportSedan]

I bet not........if you use the same parameters that Subaru and other car mfrs must use.

 

Cost constraints, any possible gov't regs, as well as insuring longevity and a consistent stream of parts for the supply chain.

 

As well as taking into account that the cars can be sold at sea level in steamy climates, in both high & low altitudes in dry, hot climates, in extreme altitudes and in extreme cold. And you must take into accout that the car will be fully loaded with the full GAVW of passengers and luggage.

 

When you take all of these constraints into account (plus others I haven't thought of), THEN try your luck.

I think you are missing the point. The point is... can a magazine editor/writer, OR a forum member here... build a better performing car in the aftermarket than paying the markup for the spec B. Aftermarket parts cost being equal to the price difference between the LGT and LGT Spec B.

 

The point is not can we out bean-count subaru bean-counters. The point is that this ISN'T bound by Subaru's regulations. Hence: "Aftermarket." I will get to Subaru's role at the end.

 

C&D could have done better, and the point being made is that forum members HERE could do better picking and installing aftermarket parts to produce a LGT that would out-perform a stock Spec B, under the cost constraint.

 

Keep in mind that C&D were operating, IIRC, with the price difference MSRP to MSRP. Most people here realize that the LGT Limited is much more likely sold at a deeper discount than the Spec B is, and that widens the margin, and if considering purchase price to purchase price, someone might actually have MORE cash to work with than C&D counted on. That is without considering holdovers from MY05, or a used LGT, which again widens the margin.

 

Less expensive coil-overs, larger swaybars, lighter wheels and perhaps better tires and better brake pads come to mind when I think of how to do things differently than C&D did. And substituting better spring rates and shock valving in the OE parts for the coil over replacement parts, Subaru could do most of that without disturbing it's "regulations"

 

Access port, and up and down pipes in the exhaust go immediately to stage II, and add more power, which the Spec B doesn't even get. Maybe that is out of place here, but that is inexpensive tuning, in the grand scheme, and people do wish the Spec B had more power to justify it's price increase.

 

As I mentioned, Subaru could have done pretty much ALL of the suspension and handling mods, with the substitution of better valving and spring rates in leu of aftermarket units, without disturbing any regulations, and likely keeping ride quality very high. Bean counters are why those improvements weren't made. Cheaper parts, and fewer R&D hours.

 

Subaru ALSO could address the power issue, simply by using the STI's turbo, and a slighty adapted intercooler to mate it with the LGT's intake manifold, and applying most the WRX STI's ECU mapping. Instant power increase. They could add ~10hp to the spec B just by flashing the ECU to something similar to Cobb or TDC's Stage One map. Again, bean counters win, and costs are kept down.

 

But as I said, the premise wasn't suggested that people build a manfactured car. The premise was whether "aftermarket" > Spec B for the same money at the buyer's end.

[fazzster]

Just came today...article was the first thing I read. I thought it was fairly accurate based on what I have read here by others. Face it, there is not a perfect car that will satisfy everyone. It is always a compromise in more ways than one.

 

Got my issue today.....I could not believe it because some of the same things happened to me (with exception of the diesel fule mishap). I am getting excessive road noise but always blamed it on my worn out / cheap Falken tires. I bet it is the wheel bearings even though my dealer said they were fine. Also, my headlights burned out at the same mileage as the C&D Legacy........my Legacy is nearing 40K miles as well....

[SLegacy99]

40,000 miles already you drive alot.

According to my carfax report, my LGT had 44,000 miles put on it in the first 2 years. Needless to say, its not in anywhere near good of shape as my '96, which I got with 23900 miles on it. Twas a lease before. A very light lease.

[John M]

Headlights? They're freakin bulbs people! Don't go to the dealership for new ones, warranty or not. Buy some name-brand bulbs and enjoy them for years to come! It's not like they're hard to replace.

 

A clutch every 30k miles. Driven like they did, why not? You can't beat on a car and expect items like that to last forever. You can bet every "journalist" that drove it fried the thing working on 0-60 and 1/4 mile runs. Judging from their descriptions (and seeing their driving ability in other tests), I'd say not many of them know how to launch an AWD car properly.

 

Remember, this is the same magazine that said the Legacy's doors 'close with a cheap sounding rattle that is characteristic of Subaru's frameless design'. Well, my car has never sounded like that. I've also never had a broken window guide like their article mentioned either.

 

And finally, I'm sick of hearing how the 3-series (with the exception of the M) is any more "fun to drive." They described the TSX as "fun to drive" too, even though it was last in all comparisons. Who cares how much "fun" you're having when you're last?!

[Max Rebo]

It also has a huge 6-liter V8 in a smallish car, and costs well more than 40 grand new, and is made from a lot of plastic and fiberglass.

 

And if you drive it like corvettes are usually driven, 28mpg is probably not the norm, and is not attainable anywhere near stop and go traffic.

 

 

Power

fuel economy

value price

 

Pick any two, and usually not the first two together.

Wow. Didn't I say that it was a non-standard comparison? You must have missed that part. I was just throwing it out there because I know that it is possible.

 

I *know* what type of engine a Vette has.

 

... and if I drive it like Vettes are usually driven? Well, you'll be happy to know that in my area, most Vettes I see are driven at or below the speed limit. Thus, power and fuel economy *can* go together. Normally, they don't but there are exceptions. I was pointing out one.

 

So my odd comparison still stands... a big V8 that attains better highway fuel economy than our AWD 4-bangers. Just the truth, you know, since everyone's concerned about fuel... and stuff.

 

You appeared to be a bit too defensive. Have a beer!

[Max Rebo]

Hehe, I never said that wasn't possible, I just said you can't want MORE HP from a LGT and better gas mileage. It would require more than just adding HP to get the LGT to get better gas mileage. I agree though, the corvette is pretty slick for fuel economy. One of the sweetest things about it is it avoids the gas guzzler tax That's saying alot for a 400hp car.

 

Actually... (and this is coming from inexperience with staged ECU upgrades) wouldn't highway fuel economy for the LGT be a bit better with a Stage 1 or 2 upgrade? I haven't delved too much into ECU flashing yet because I won't bother until next year, but aren't the maps leaned out a bit for driving while not in boost, or while under minimal boost? I really have no idea. I'm curious about this.

 

OTOH, even if fuel economy was improved, I'd have my foot to the floor all the time, so it would be the same or worse!

[john_knoxville]

Folks... you need to READ the article! I'll see if I can get a scan.

don't blame the folks. blame limeade for starting a topic about an unscanned, unlinked article, which has now grown six off-topic pages long.

[elpete77]

I've got a torch, somebody get a hay rake and we'll go find this "limeade" and stand outside his castle and yell things at him, with torches and rakes and stuff, like in the movies.

 

He'll be mildy uncomfortable for what he did.

[GTTuner]

Some interesting thoughts going on around here. First of all, John, I hardly find this off topic, with all due respect to you. Scan it? Go to the F&^$%ing news stand and spend five bucks for an issue, for Pete's sake!

 

I have worked as a technician at a Honda dealer (7 years), Volvo dealer (3 years), a Subaru dealer and now a Dodge/Chrylser dealer.

 

I have one statement ot make; THEY ALL BUILD "BAD" ONES NOW AND THEN! Some build more than others, but I have 93 Intrepids running around here with 200,000+ miles and still going strong. (abeit, a rare instance with first gen LH cars).

 

When I went to Subaru, as a Service manager in 1995, the 4EAT was a notorious POS. We did head gaskets, cam seals and oil pumps like crazy. Hell, sway bar links on early 90's Legacys were "maintinence" items.

 

My problem with C&D is the do a long term on a Jag. The thing is in the shop more than they have it and they give it a wonderful review. They are too inconsistant evaluating cars.

 

Take for instance the "Under 15K Comparo a couple of months back. The Dodge Caliber was at the bottom of the heap, unrefined, cheap interior materials etc. BUT, a month or two earlier they tested it and said it was a "Nice piece" WTF?

 

C&D has a long history of this. You talking about a magazine that when tested the Chevy Citation they were goo, gaaa on the whole thing. Six months later, it's a piece of crap. Which it was. Same with the Pinto...and the "K" car, and on ,and on.

[sjmdesigns]

They had more problems with their long-term test Acura RL, but yet they were forgiving and actually recommended the car. But reading the LGT Long-term test and their reaction to the car?

 

Com'on.

[john_knoxville]

Scan it? Go to the F&^$%ing news stand and spend five bucks for an issue, for Pete's sake!

did you spend five bucks for it, or do you have a subscription?

I cancelled my subscription after the Mazda Speed/Honda/Acura comparo.

why did you do that? isn't it worth the five bucks?

Car and driver sucks lately.

i'm sorry, i didn't quite get that?

THEY SUCK.

okay............um, i'm going to slowly get up and leave the room now.

[tantal]

Some interesting thoughts going on around here. First of all, John, I hardly find this off topic, with all due respect to you. Scan it? Go to the F&^$%ing news stand and spend five bucks for an issue, for Pete's sake!

(snip)

 

 

Dude, try the ignore function.

 

[MassiveAttack]

My problem with C&D is the do a long term on a Jag. The thing is in the shop more than they have it and they give it a wonderful review. They are too inconsistant evaluating cars.

 

I think that is the main thing that gets me upset. Inconsitency in their final reporting.

[john_knoxville]

Sillybuns, try the ignore function.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/92bandit/ghey.gif

fixed

[rporter]

I think that is the main thing that gets me upset. Inconsitency in their final reporting.

 

So you guys are saying that all of the reviewers for a car mag should agree upon one answer?

 

Sorry, I would rather see different opinions by different people (within the same mag) show up.

 

Pus, a car that is on top today could be sucking eggs in a year or two when the competition improves. I've seen with with a few cars, and C&D will report it as such.

 

For the cars I've owned, or driven more than a few times, IMHO their observations are pretty much in tune with me. I may not always agree, but I can understand why they wrote what they did.

 

I've been subscribing to C&D, always along with at least two ther car mags (usually more), for about 35 of the over 40 years I've been getting subscription car mags. They have changed over time, but they are now the oldest car mag in my subscription list. Over time, they have consistently been better than all the others out there.

[gfxdave99]

1. The headlight problem goes beyond the stock bulbs, some members have replaced them with silverstars and still had burn out issues, i think it might be a larger problem then the bulbs themseleves.

 

2. Everything C&D complained about was valid. However what they dont see is the tremendous bang for the buck advantage over a 3 series.

• Clutch Problems : True
  
• Bulbs Burning Out : True
  
• Vibration Issues : True
  
• Crappy Climate Control : True
  
• Shifter : yes, it could be much better

So here is the deal, I love my Legacy and wouldnt trade it for anything (that i could afford right now) BUT! There are quality issues Subaru needs to address and do so quickly if they dont want to become the Japanese Oldsmobile of the US (aka GONE)

[gfxdave99]

Oh for the record I have had the car for 14,000 miles and 16 months and the only problem I have had personally is the A/C went out and that was because a rock hit the compressor which they replaced for free under Warranty in one day.

 

So my personal experience with the car has been great. But I do know people who have had issues.

 

For the record though, the Acura TSX which C&D has had on their top 10 since it came out has just as many problems, so I do appreciate the fact that C&D is being a bit unfair. As a matter of fact I was planning on writing a letter to the editor about their review.

[GTTuner]

I think that is the main thing that gets me upset. Inconsitency in their final reporting.

AMEN!

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices that they will say a car is great then trash it a few months later. I am refering to the overall impression they give you for a particular car when it is introduced vs. a year later. Very few stay consistent.

 

Oh, and by the way, I didn't spend the five bucks.

 

Hey, NEW REVELATION! You can look at the magazine at Wal-Mart for free! All you need is a couple of minutes to stand at the magazine rack and thumb through 150 or so pages of the garbage periodical then decide if it's worth five bucks.

[FameMax]

Car and Driver LOVE Hondas and Bimmers, plain and simple, however usually when a new model of car comes out that cars wins, then once the car has been out for like a year or so and they do another comparo, the Honda or Bimmer wins

[Garandman]

THis may have been said already but . .

 

My wife drives an 06 Accord V6 with six speed, she averages 23mpg, the clutch is like mush, it's front wheel drive, and it looks like everything else on the road.

 

But the interior is very nice, the ride is smooth, and I'm confident she won't be breaking down anytime soon.

 

Anyone who says the Accord is a sports sedan is dumb. I'd say the same about all BMW's, except the M series.

 

Ruh Roh. The C&D review says:

Still, true sports-sedan status isdenied the Legacy on account of too much pitch and roll as well as light steering and a mushy brake pedal....And the all-season tires don't advance the sports sedan cause, either....[page 102]

...If you can't afford a BMW 3-series or you need more back seat space, try a Mazdaspeed 6 or Honda Accord V-6.[page 104]

[jbowman]

Wow. Didn't I say that it was a non-standard comparison? You must have missed that part. I was just throwing it out there because I know that it is possible.

 

I *know* what type of engine a Vette has.

 

... and if I drive it like Vettes are usually driven? Well, you'll be happy to know that in my area, most Vettes I see are driven at or below the speed limit. Thus, power and fuel economy *can* go together. Normally, they don't but there are exceptions. I was pointing out one.

 

So my odd comparison still stands... a big V8 that attains better highway fuel economy than our AWD 4-bangers. Just the truth, you know, since everyone's concerned about fuel... and stuff.

 

You appeared to be a bit too defensive. Have a beer!

 

Well yea.. the vette is lighter and has more relaxed gearing. It's going to get better gas mileage driven "normally". Actually GM's LS series motors have been pretty fuel efficient since they started building them in the mid 90's. A better comparison might have been the GTO vs LGT... or the Grand Prix GXP.

 

I knew a guy with a 99 Camaro SS that easily got better gas mileage than me, especially when we were both doing a lot of highway driving, and he didn't baby it.

 

Really if performance and gas mileage were my only concerns I'd of gotten a GXP or GTO from Pontiac and been happy. Subaru just managed to convert me after owning and enjoying a WRX that quite frankly had a much better build quality than any of the GM products I've ever owned, and I've owned a few to say the least.

[SWP-LegacyGT]

three choices:

 

1. link

2. scan

3. f*** off

 

Fixed.

[SC GT]

I read the article during lunch today, and I can't see why so many of you are getting your panties in a bunch. Without addressing some of the problems they had which were car-specific, they complained generally of:

 

A notchy shifter -- So how many have raved about Kartboy shifter bushing? I know I have. I've got just about every shifter mod there is.

 

Too much roll -- How many have raved about upgrading the suspension, from sway bars to struts to springs? I know I have

 

Spongy brakes -- How many have gotten stainless steel brake lines to improve pedal feel? Not me yet. I don't have a problem with sponginess, but a lot of people on the board have gone this route.

 

The stock all seasons are too much of a compromise tire -- Who here doesn't have the same complaints about the tires?

 

How many of you that are griping about the article have modded away those same deficiencies that C&D complained of?

 

The only "enthusiast" who was completely satisfied with the LGT out of the box was GTGuy, and I think he was fooling himself. He would have loved to upgrade to a full Spec B suspension and JDM swaybars if he had the opportunity. He just wouldn't admit it. And even he changed out the stock tires for some high performance Dunlops.