Car and Driver article

[IwannaSportSedan]

BTW, just a humble suggestion to the mods... this might do well merged with the other C&D Article thread.

 

I fully expect to be attacked/flamed by the fan boys. I'm just disappointed that the Legacy broke as often as it did, and I wish the SPEC B was less of a poser car and more of a M. They didn't out WRX the REX with the LGT.

 

...We have an 05 Accord V6. It has acceleration, cornering limits, and braking that equal or better many so-called sports sedans. Like the LGT, the OEM tires are wanting.

 

The LGT is a lot faster, but the Honda burns regular and we average in the mid to high 20's in mpg, one tank of 31.3. You go 0-60 once per trip.

 

I am not a fanboy. I don't have a Legacy yet, and I have been a very outspoken critic on these forums...

 

But how are people comparing the Accord to the Legacy GT? The key is in the drive. "F"WD or "A"WD. Honda gets an F, Subaru gets an A. Might as well be grades.

 

And BTW, what actual "so-called sport sedans" are you referring to? You can't just float that criticism, and leave it open without saying which cars. That isn't a credible or verifiable statement, it is an opinion.

 

For a performance car, FWD is not a desireable thing, and to me it isn't even acceptable.

 

V6... great. Nice. I wish Legacy had the 3.0R, too. But the 2.5GT would still be sportier than that. I would expect some power from a V6 in any car. OK. The fact that the Legacy is faster with a turbo-4 makes it sportier in this category.

 

Braking. Most cars in that weight class should have decent enough brakes to do pretty well. Should be expected.

 

Cornering limits, I haven't driven an accord so I can't speak authoritatively, but in the past, with FWD, using the throttle while steering was detrimental to your heading, and would badly spin the inside front wheel, and understeer even more. more torque makes it worse. AWD and good RWD don't do that.

 

I am sorry, but when you are saying on one hand, Accord is such a good sport sedan, even compared to the faster Legacy GT, but look at how much fuel economy the Accord has... Fuel economy does not a sport sedan make. Fuel economy does an econobox make.

 

Plus, there are the looks. Look at a modern accord. BLECH! I hate the look. Camry is no better. The accord looks awkard in the changing slope on the front of the hood and slit of a grille, the wide low-set headlights, the entire rear end of the car, and the blockish c-pillar transitions... there isn't a truely graceful line on the car.

 

The Legacy looks much better, even if it isn't the automotive equivalent of Miss America. A strong shoulder line, a "hoffmeister kink" in the C-pillar glass, and a general rake and simplicity to the car, with nicely proportioned and positioned headlights. (I wish the grille and front bumper cover were as great looking as the Legacy headlights, especially the 05 black ones.)

 

When you consider both, which says "sporty car" louder to you, from the eyes or the seat of the pants?

 

And I don't get the comment about "out WRX-ing the rex with the Legacy GT'... was someone expecting the Legacy GT to be more of a boy-racer type car? Or were you saying you are glad the LGT is not more like the WRX?

 

I, for one, am glad it ISN'T more like the WRX, small, cramped, and less smooth driving... nah, thanks. Fine car for someone just to have fun with, too small and raw for me. If you were meaning that the Legacy GT should be better handling and more capable than it already is, I would tend to agree, and I do wish the Spec B were a more focused and committed effort at a halo sport sedan.

 

The Accord seems to me to be a point-A to Point-B appliance, albeit a nice reliable one. The Legacy GT seems to me to be a more "soulful", unique machine with much more sporting potential, and more of that potential realized. And that is just from research and as many test drives as I can get. I can only imagine how my opinion will be elevated when I buy one in a short while.

[Barrok]

I just see areas for improvement in the Legacy and as a sports luxury sedan the LGT is a heck of a machine. Its fun to drive, but it’s not perfect (nothing ever is). The LGT Could use a smoother shifting manual possibly a 6spd, more power, stiffer suspension, better breaks, and a better stereo, and a little better fuel economy would be nice (I average about 19mpg). But I like my LGT and will consider another Subaru after this lease is up.

 

Hehe , you want better gas mileage but you also want more power? I agree the subaru isn't perfect (as you have stated) but I think the LGT is a better deal than the honda, but what do I know I am subie biased

[BOY]

IWSS,

 

In the very same issue is the big data list in the back for all cars and guess who pulled a higher skidpad number... the Accord or the LGT? Yup, the LGT. Guess who's 1/2 a second quicker in the 1320... yup LGT again. See the dilema, they compare the Accord to the LGT but their own quanitfiable data suggests the LGT is the better sports sedan, now subjectively they may like the Accord but numbers don't lie. Anyone else notice that C&D is the only rag who really seems to write poorly on the GT?

[Barrok]

IWSS,

 

In the very same issue is the big data list in the back for all cars and guess who pulled a higher skidpad number... the Accord or the LGT? Yup, the LGT. Guess who's 1/2 a second quicker in the 1320... yup LGT again. See the dilema, they compare the Accord to the LGT but their own quanitfiable data suggests the LGT is the better sports sedan, now subjectively they may like the Accord but numbers don't lie. Anyone else notice that C&D is the only rag who really seems to write poorly on the GT?

 

Yup, my co-worker just brought in his july Motor Trend which did a follow up on their 05 LGT. They seemed to still enjoy it and really liked the car. They wondered why anyone would spend over $30 grand on a car, but at the end of the day they realized it was so fun and worth that $30 grand, which is exactly how I feel.

 

Many, Many cars out there look better or have a more luxurious interior but for the complete package the LGT is a winner (especially if you live in an area that snows.)

[LowFast]

^ Or even if it never snows, it is nice to know you you have the extra grip even on wet roads.

[rporter]

IWSS,

 

In the very same issue is the big data list in the back for all cars and guess who pulled a higher skidpad number... the Accord or the LGT? Yup, the LGT. Guess who's 1/2 a second quicker in the 1320... yup LGT again. See the dilema, they compare the Accord to the LGT but their own quanitfiable data suggests the LGT is the better sports sedan, now subjectively they may like the Accord but numbers don't lie. Anyone else notice that C&D is the only rag who really seems to write poorly on the GT?

 

Don't even go there. Comparing stats is a very pointless exercise.....and particulary any skid pad #s.

 

A LOT of folks could care less about 1/4-mile times. I snickered when I saw the original C&D test with the LGT where they picked the TSX, which had a 1.5-second slower ET. but, I understood what they were looking at.

 

Cars with the best stats are not the cars that are the most enjoyable to live with everyday. Look at the Corvette fans. I get tired of always seeing their letters to car mags about their better #s and for less $$ than cars they are compared against. FWIW, I have owned 2 Corvettes in the past, and I would take another 911 any day over any Vette.

 

About 8 years ago, when I lived in Louisville, I got an invite to the new (C5) Corvette Ride-n-Drive, which was two long (1/2mile & 1-mile) autocross courses set up at Churchill Downs. It is amazing how you can feel the difference between cars when you drive them back-to-back. They had all three flavors of Corvette suspensions there. and driving each back-to-back really shows the differences. You would never notice this driving different cars at different dealers.

 

I can compare this to car testers at car mags. When they test cars back-to-back, they can feel the differences. Like it or not, the LGT hasn't fared well in these comparisons. not that it isn't good....but others are better.

 

MANY folks (including a bunch on this list, I'll bet), never use over 1/2-throttle, and 1/4-mile and 0-60 times mean nothing. Besides, Subaru touts the WRX/STI as their performance cars, and not the LGT. Midsize 4-door sedans with power and brakes/suspension to match are as commmon as dirt.....to the point that can't all be called "performance sedans" anymore.....that is now the norm.

[rporter]

But how are people comparing the Accord to the Legacy GT? The key is in the drive. "F"WD or "A"WD. Honda gets an F, Subaru gets an A. Might as well be grades.

 

For a performance car, FWD is not a desireable thing, and to me it isn't even acceptable.

 

Cornering limits, I haven't driven an accord so I can't speak authoritatively, but in the past, with FWD, using the throttle while steering was detrimental to your heading, and would badly spin the inside front wheel, and understeer even more. more torque makes it worse. AWD and good RWD don't do that.

 

 

Well, your opinion......

 

 

LOTS of folks live in 4-season warm weather.....AWD is worthless there. If I lived in AZ, no Subaru would have been on my radar screen.

 

Up until this past year, I have been doing track events in a FWD car. In fact, I still do track events with the FWD crowd, and many in my Advanced group run right by me. AWD is not a savior on the track. In fact, I would prefer a RWD, as the AWD takes some driving tricks (as does FWD).

 

I have had enough of FWD for other reasons, but AWD doesn't have much adavantage over them (and none, for most folks) to keep from understeering like crazy.

 

If it isn't "acceptable" to you, that's fine......that's your preference. But that doesn't make it bad. There are as many very good FWD performance cars out there as there are AWD or RWD.

[rottenspam]

Hehe , you want better gas mileage but you also want more power? I agree the subaru isn't perfect (as you have stated) but I think the LGT is a better deal than the honda, but what do I know I am subie biased

 

Darn it I want it all. More power and more fuel economy! Hehe, well I can dream can't I. BTW I think subaru is begining to deliver at least the same power but more economy. I've noticed the 06 LGT's with 5spd get 20/26, the 05 I have is 19/25. I wouldn't be surprised with the taller gearing in the 07's and the 6spd with I drivr in the spec b we won't see 21/27-28 on the Spec B, and 21/27 on the regular GT in Jetta mode I mean 200hp mode.

[elpete77]

THis may have been said already but . .

 

My wife drives an 06 Accord V6 with six speed, she averages 23mpg, the clutch is like mush, it's front wheel drive, and it looks like everything else on the road.

 

But the interior is very nice, the ride is smooth, and I'm confident she won't be breaking down anytime soon.

 

Anyone who says the Accord is a sports sedan is dumb. I'd say the same about all BMW's, except the M series.

[Garandman]

THis may have been said already but . .

 

My wife drives an 06 Accord V6 with six speed, she averages 23mpg, the clutch is like mush, it's front wheel drive, and it looks like everything else on the road.

 

But the interior is very nice, the ride is smooth, and I'm confident she won't be breaking down anytime soon.

 

Anyone who says the Accord is a sports sedan is dumb. I'd say the same about all BMW's, except the M series.

 

What is a sports sedan? A Mini can't be one - FWD. A Legacy GT can't be one - "looks like everything else on the road." Certainly not a European Spec b - they only have an H6. SAAB Viggen - FWD.

 

Sounds like people here are drinking the BMW Koolaid. If it has enough power and the handling limits to get down the road quickly, it doesn't need RWD and badges. The Accord V6 we have is certainly plain looking but it gets down the road very well and is faster than most of the high priced spreads.

[racerdave]

Folks... you need to READ the article! I'll see if I can get a scan.

 

Overall, it's pretty positive. The clutch and injector and plug were the only real issues.

 

They took a credibility hit themselves when they owned up to putting a tank of DIESEL in the LGT.

 

Anyway, for everyone getting bent out of shape about the Mazdaspeed 6 and Accord V6 comment, the preface was something to the effect of, "if you want more back seat room, then get a Mazdaspeed 6 or Accord V6."

 

Now, I don't happen to think the Mazda has more back seat room, but that's another topic.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Well, your opinion......

 

 

LOTS of folks live in 4-season warm weather.....AWD is worthless there. If I lived in AZ, no Subaru would have been on my radar screen.

 

Up until this past year, I have been doing track events in a FWD car. In fact, I still do track events with the FWD crowd, and many in my Advanced group run right by me. AWD is not a savior on the track. In fact, I would prefer a RWD, as the AWD takes some driving tricks (as does FWD).

 

I have had enough of FWD for other reasons, but AWD doesn't have much adavantage over them (and none, for most folks) to keep from understeering like crazy.

 

If it isn't "acceptable" to you, that's fine......that's your preference. But that doesn't make it bad. There are as many very good FWD performance cars out there as there are AWD or RWD.

 

Some people do live in warmer climates. Good for you, if you do. I'd go with RWD if there weren't snow storms here, too...

 

And I don't drive on the track. There isn't one for about 200 miles. And if I did, I would probably drive the Miata, or my Hawk GT motorcycle on the track, not a 4-door sedan, If I had the choice.

 

You with one breath say that FWD isn't bad, but then with the other, you say that it takes tricks to get it to handle and run on the track, and you have had enough of it yourself.

 

I drove a V6/5MT Probe GT for several years, and granted it didn't have a limited slip, but it also didn't have more than 180hp... And it understeered, and spun the inside front tire, and generally handled like FWD car. Like the rear end was along for the ride, which it is.

 

I've also owned a bad-handling RWD 4-cyl mustang, and an '81 3.8 Monte Carlo. and my wife's Good-handling IRS 140hp Miata. So I do have some experience with tricky handling from both FWD and RWD. I am SO looking forward to AWD traction.

 

After I sold the Probe GT, and especially after we got the Miata, I have sworn off FWD when ANY kind of performance is involved, even though I don't go to the track. Even just for the street. There are RWD, and Subaru real AWD cars available, and that is what I choose from.

 

But all of that doesn't change the fact that the Accord is not a sport sedan. (and I don't "wanna" own one...) The Legacy GT is, and probably the best value option since the demise of the E36 M3 4-door.

 

No one claims the LGT to be the perfect car. But I can't think of a better sport sedan value, despite it's drawbacks.

 

And for C/D to rag on it's reliability after bashing the car (bad spark plugs way too early, and filling the car with diesel fuel. Maybe they fessed up, but what else did they do on that level of stupidity?)

 

Oh, well. I subscribed to C&D for the better part of a decade, and I can't really stand it anymore. The copy is insipid, for the most part. How many comparos can you say: "There is no clear winner, choose for yourself..."

 

I buy mags on the news stand, no real brand exclusively, but EVO and CAR fairly regularly, if they REALLY interest me, otherwise I skim the news and any interesting articles (very few), and call it good.

[rporter]

What is a sports sedan? A Mini can't be one - FWD. A Legacy GT can't be one - "looks like everything else on the road." Certainly not a European Spec b - they only have an H6. SAAB Viggen - FWD.

 

Sounds like people here are drinking the BMW Koolaid. If it has enough power and the handling limits to get down the road quickly, it doesn't need RWD and badges. The Accord V6 we have is certainly plain looking but it gets down the road very well and is faster than most of the high priced spreads.

 

You got the point....which is that the term "sports sedan" means nothing today. Folks that say the LGT "is" and the Accord "isn't" have been drinking the Kool Aid.

 

IMHO, the only 4-door cars that can be called "sport sedans" are ones that offer manual trannies.

 

The market has spoken...................... Hondas and BMWs sell far more than Subarus.

[rporter]

Folks... you need to READ the article! I'll see if I can get a scan.

 

Overall, it's pretty positive. The clutch and injector and plug were the only real issues.

 

They took a credibility hit themselves when they owned up to putting a tank of DIESEL in the LGT.

 

Anyway, for everyone getting bent out of shape about the Mazdaspeed 6 and Accord V6 comment, the preface was something to the effect of, "if you want more back seat room, then get a Mazdaspeed 6 or Accord V6."

 

Now, I don't happen to think the Mazda has more back seat room, but that's another topic.

 

+1

 

I suspect most of these folks have not read the article. If they still have a hair up their butt after reading it, they obviously don't have much experience with different vehicles.

[The B4]

+1

 

I suspect most of these folks have not read the article. If they still have a hair up their butt after reading it, they obviously don't have much experience with different vehicles.

 

the list of things in that article make it far from positive...

 

 

You got the point....which is that the term "sports sedan" means nothing today. Folks that say the LGT "is" and the Accord "isn't" have been drinking the Kool Aid.

 

IMHO, the only 4-door cars that can be called "sport sedans" are ones that offer manual trannies.

 

The market has spoken...................... Hondas and BMWs sell far more than Subarus.

 

a freaking Honda Accord V6 is not a Sports Sedan... you are fooling yourself by saying it is... and Subaru is a Niche manufacturer duh... You obviously have a soft spot in your heart for FWD Hondas... which is fine... an Integra Type R is a force to be reckoned with... However... I'd like to see any current Stock Honda, Acura, Toyota, besides an NSX or S2000 beat a Legacy around a track.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Sales figures, fuel economy, interior plushness, NAV availability, fuzzy dice, or space enough in the trunk for a dead body don't mean anything when determining whether a sedan is performance oriented or not. Various measures of handling and power, and a concentration on driver satisfaction and enjoyment are what count in performance vehicles.

 

Honda is not. Toyota is not. Ford is not. most GMs are definitely not, save maybe a Pontiac GP (maybe) or a -V series Caddilac. Even the Legacy 2.5i really isn't as much of a sport sedan, despite it's shared DNA with the GT. Close, maybe.

 

Legacy GT is definitely over the mark, BMWs with sport packages or ///M badges are, AMGs are, probably even the Charger RT and SRT, and Jaguar and Volvo R cars, and most Audis, Lexus IS and GS, Infiniti G35, and the like. It isn't so much about price as about performance focus, which tends to cost a bit more money than non-sport, non-lux, more mainstream sedans. Thankfully the Legacy GT doesn't cost that much more, which is what makes it a value to an enthusiast.

 

This stuff isn't hard, and isn't really that obscure, and it has nothing to do with "kool-aid," figurative or otherwise. Anyone who knows cars underneath the skin can probably look at a car and tell if it is a sport sedan, sport wagon, sport coupe, muscle car, or sports car by sight. Both by visual recognition of nameplate, and design and appearance.

 

The C&D article is the same as most C&D articles, and what I have come to expect from magazines. A half-way interesting or better premise, that is either erroneous, marginally executed, or poorly written, and mostly tepid by the end.

[GTTuner]

Car and driver sucks lately. If it don't have an "H" on the hood, it doesn't measure up.

 

WTF??? The Accord does not have half the features the LGT does, but "oh it's so nice" Give it a break C&D. I cancelled my subscription after the Mazda Speed/Honda/Acura comparo. The LGT would have kicked ass there.

 

THEY SUCK.

[Max Rebo]

Hehe , you want better gas mileage but you also want more power? I agree the subaru isn't perfect (as you have stated) but I think the LGT is a better deal than the honda, but what do I know I am subie biased

 

Putting brands aside, it *is* possible to have lots of power and good fuel economy. This is a left field comparison, but look at the Corvette. 400hp and 28 mpg highway. Not bad, eh?

[IwannaSportSedan]

It also has a huge 6-liter V8 in a smallish car, and costs well more than 40 grand new, and is made from a lot of plastic and fiberglass.

 

And if you drive it like corvettes are usually driven, 28mpg is probably not the norm, and is not attainable anywhere near stop and go traffic.

 

 

Power

fuel economy

value price

 

Pick any two, and usually not the first two together.

 

BTW, power isn't the only part of the equation. GM can pitch the new Impala SS all it wants, and it will still be stupid, mostly by design. FWD and frumpy looking inside and out. It has a V8, more horsepower and torque, AND variable displacement, and STILL isn't half the sport sedan that the Legacy GT is.

 

Ironically, they share a lot of design traits, but where the impala poorly executes the details, the Legacy looks so much better. Headlights, tail lights, shape, rake, even the kink in the c-pillar are all similar, but yet have a night and day effect. one car is ugly, the other is understatedly very good looking. Interior is even more of a stark difference.

 

Power is not the only part of the equation. Power is no longer that hard to come by, and just about anybody can add power to an otherwise mundane or even marginal car.

[Barrok]

Putting brands aside, it *is* possible to have lots of power and good fuel economy. This is a left field comparison, but look at the Corvette. 400hp and 28 mpg highway. Not bad, eh?

 

Hehe, I never said that wasn't possible, I just said you can't want MORE HP from a LGT and better gas mileage. It would require more than just adding HP to get the LGT to get better gas mileage. I agree though, the corvette is pretty slick for fuel economy. One of the sweetest things about it is it avoids the gas guzzler tax That's saying alot for a 400hp car.

[deimos]

I just picked up the article yesterday.

 

While I will agree that C&D can be pricks w/ subaru. Im glad they wrote this article. While most of you have LGTs that have been relatively unproblematic and just lots of fun.

 

A few of us here and I guess now the editors at C&D have experienced the joys of a "bad batch" of Legacy GTs that have been nothing but problems, fun to drive when they work? hell yeah, been in the garage for major issues more times than I can count? hell yeah.

 

I wont go into too much detail because I have other threads out there http://legacygt.com/forums/warranty-issues-problems/33684-extreme-oil-consumption.html?highlight=extreme+oil, I essentially suffered through the defective clutch, a number of the more minor issues c&d mentions, and I just got my car back yesterday after 2 months of having my engine rebuilt completely due to a bad cylinder and the dealerships neglect in taking my many complaints of "zero oil level on the dipstick" seriously.

 

I love this car, I still love subarus, but im very glad that a big magazine got a chance to experience and write about a problematic Legacy GT because they do exist.

 

I have my car back now and am praying this is the end of the issues, I only have 30k kms on the car and would really like to enjoy the car as it was meant to be as im sure the c&d editors had hoped to. I guess it is just too bad that the whole bunch may look spoiled due to a few rotton apples.

[godwhomismike]

They did a sucky job at building a better Spec B. I'm sure half the folks on these boards could've built something better for the same money.

[deimos]

They did a sucky job at building a better Spec B. I'm sure half the folks on these boards could've built something better for the same money.

 

+1

 

Absolutely. For the same money we could have done a "Spec LGT.com" version that would have been much better

 

Hmm that would make an interesting thread...and contest?

[rporter]

A few of us here and I guess now the editors at C&D have experienced the joys of a "bad batch" of Legacy GTs that have been nothing but problems, fun to drive when they work? hell yeah, been in the garage for major issues more times than I can count? hell yeah.

 

 

Your issues went welll beyond about everyone else's problems, and I don't see it as a "bad batch"......you got a "bad car".

 

As I mentioned earlier, the problems they found have been very typical of many folks on this forum (headlights, rear axle bearings) as well as more that I would have suspected with the clutches. But, OTOH, clutches are like brakes, and last according to use, in most cases.

[rporter]

They did a sucky job at building a better Spec B. I'm sure half the folks on these boards could've built something better for the same money.

 

I bet not........if you use the same parameters that Subaru and other car mfrs must use.

 

Cost constraints, any possible gov't regs, as well as insuring longevity and a consistent stream of parts for the supply chain.

 

As well as taking into account that the cars can be sold at sea level in steamy climates, in both high & low altitudes in dry, hot climates, in extreme altitudes and in extreme cold. And you must take into accout that the car will be fully loaded with the full GAVW of passengers and luggage.

 

When you take all of these constraints into account (plus others I haven't thought of), THEN try your luck.