iPod Direct-connection successful! (but VERY difficult)

[jazzymt]

[quote name='Ken S']Sounds great. Have you considered using PC boards with additional layers or if you had to use small traces, special PC boards that prevent signal loss?[/QUOTE]Uhhhhh...remember how you were touting KISS a moment ago? There's a bit more emphasis on the last S for me :) I admit I know little to nothing about trace signal interference & losses, but I'm hoping the short length & relatively strong signals will minimize any effect my poor PCB fab skills have on it. The "way around" my 0.005" traces was to reduce and I may even completely elimiate the "pads" for the thru-hole components...leaving only the width of the trace for solder area, but allowing me to quadruple the width of the trace. I think this will provide the most reliable etch/board combo with the smallest chance of overlap or gaps on the circuit...now I just need to polish up my solder skills... ~edit~ ...also, I have "considered" alternatives for the board & construction, but that $25 price is available (for the time being) precicely because this is a 100% out-of-the-garage operation for now. Dual layer boards are pretty much impossible for a DIY'er. If there's more popularity for this solution than I'm anticipating, I may consider outsourcing the board later, but personally, I don't expect that much interest.

[mvigneau]

[quote name='jazzymt']mvigneau, just curious...are you permanently disabling the skip-mute, or is that part of your switching, so that it's only disabled when the aux port is utilized?[/QUOTE] No...this is part of the switching...I don't know what would happen if I permanently disabled it and the CD skipped or tried muting?

[jetta knight]

I may consider outsourcing the board later, but personally, I don't expect that much interest.[/QUOTE] I think that you may be surprised at the interest in this device. I have been monitoring this thread since the beginning without comment. I am certain that there are many others, like myself, that have been patiently awaiting the outcome of the research being accomplished here. Good luck to us all. Cheers, Greg

[jazzymt]

Well, that would be great, glad to help, but I'm trying not to get ahead of myself :) By the way, the etch went great, I don't think I'll have any problems with the traces, but I realized I don't have enough variety in my tool box for v. small drill bits. My dremel has 0.008" bits (which I broke two of...DOH!) and the next bigger one is like 0.060", which is too big so I need to get a couple inbetween before I can finish my board. This won't be a problem when I CNC the other boards, so between the CNC & no prob's with etching, I'm even more optomistic...can't wait to test this thing out...more updates to come...

[jetta knight]

BTW, as indicated by my user name I have a VW Jetta TDI diesel but I also have a 2005 Outback 3.0. The Jetta gets 50mpg. Guess which one I use most these days? Greg

[Jerboa113]

yea I'm in grandma mode with my car and STILL only barley getting 19mpg.. this 4cyl must have HUGE injectors.. I agree, interest in this device is booming, I think most of the people who posted earlier in this thread have either gotten tired of reading or are just gonna wait quietly and then bombard you with GIMME ONE NOW! if you feel like you need any funding to help the project just let us know, I personally think your board is worth more than $25 anyway and would have no problem donating a little. so long as I get one when its done :lol:

[jazzymt]

[size=2]*grumble grumble* Well, I bought a #60 drill bit and a chuck adapter for my dremel (to keep the rpms way up instead of using a drill). Now my holes are way, way too big, but that's the smallest bit I could get at my local hardware store (#60 = 0.0400"). I may be able to solder this puppy together with some uber careful work, but I'm doubtful. I will probably have much better luck starting over & trying w/a fresh board & a smaller bit...which really is no biggie, but I was hoping to be playing tonight...I will give it a try anyway...plenty of extra parts. A trip to the larger hardware stores this weekend and I should be able to manage a 1/32" (0.0312") or smaller drill bit and finish this thing off for sure if that fails.[/size] [size=2][/size] [size=2]As to the price, considering there are 43 holes per board to solder...I may have to bump it a few dollars if it's a real nightmare, but I'm going to keep it there until I decide it's not worth it for me to continue. A lot of this prototyping stuff will help me determine that...as well as dust off my skills. I know there are audiophiles out there that would pay $200 for even this board, let alone the more complicated version, but as I've stated before, I'm not going for a home business, I'm just trying to help out in exchange for the info/idea/collaboration. Don't get me wrong though, if I get overwhelmed, I will most probably outsource some or all of the work, but probably still pass along the price as mostly cost.[/size]

[c_hunter]

I don't know why either of you guys are not getting the boards pre-fabbed. Since all the parts are available from Digikey, you can use any number of fab/prototype services to print the boards and have the parts mounted/soldered. In quantity (like a few dozen) it would probably come in for $20-30 per board. These places offer free software to help you design/spec/price the board, then it transmits the design for fab. Seriously consider taking this approach! Craig

[mvigneau]

[quote name='c_hunter']I don't know why either of you guys are not getting the boards pre-fabbed. Since all the parts are available from Digikey, you can use any number of fab/prototype services to print the boards and have the parts mounted/soldered. In quantity (like a few dozen) it would probably come in for $20-30 per board. These places offer free software to help you design/spec/price the board, then it transmits the design for fab. Seriously consider taking this approach! Craig[/QUOTE] Actually that is what I am doing. I work at an EE shop for a big known company and we are using PCAD PCB and PCAD Schematic as well as Gerbtool to create our boards. Then we send off the prototype to a board shop who then sends us the finished board and I take my digikey parts and put them on and test...but unfortunately, I am $$$$ in the whole because of the 6 or 7 revs I have had to go through because of stupid minor stuff i forgot or something else came up that wasn't quite what i wanted. That is why I am charging a higher amount because i need to recoup my costs...

[Ken S]

[quote name='mvigneau']but unfortunately, I am $$$$ in the whole because of the 6 or 7 revs I have had to go through because of stupid minor stuff i forgot or something else came up that wasn't quite what i wanted. That is why I am charging a higher amount because i need to recoup my costs...[/QUOTE] Ouch, that many revs certainly can cost a pretty penny. At my previous job our EEs would need to go through several revs for much more complicated PCB designs and it was several thousands each time including expedite costs. Here's a thought -- rather than try and recoup costs completely on the final full featured version, how about releasing a basic version with some mark up to fund your efforts? My guess is that many folks here would be willing to part at least the cost of an FM Modulator (say, $50) for basic functionality of getting an AUX input even if it meant using a silent CD. You'll probably have a better chance of making up your costs this way than try and fund the design you really want. Ken

[jazzymt]

[quote name='c_hunter']I don't know why either of you guys are not getting the boards pre-fabbed. Since all the parts are available from Digikey, you can use any number of fab/prototype services to print the boards and have the parts mounted/soldered. In quantity (like a few dozen) it would probably come in for $20-30 per board. These places offer free software to help you design/spec/price the board, then it transmits the design for fab. Seriously consider taking this approach! Craig[/QUOTE]Well, lets see...a few dozen boards huh? 36 boards at $25 each would be $900. Feel like ponying up a grand for a bunch of strangers as of yet, still mostly uncommited? Plus, I'd like to avoid mvigneau's approach of making my prototypes through a fab vendor at huge cost. Anyway, no thanks, I think I like my "business plan" a lot better than yours. Good luck with that though if [b]you're[/b] willing to dig yourself into a hole. I've outlined this enough already, but I'll spell it out for yas one last time. I want to get a working prototype. [b]Then[/b] I'll make a batch of sample boards for those who can't wait at a very small cost and [b]if there is still raging interest[/b], I might consider ponying up the cash to outsource some of the work...but I'm not about to do that up front for a hacked little solution to a stereo problem. It's just silly.

[c_hunter]

Well shoot, even if you get them as one-offs, we'd be talking $50-75 each, which is still reasonable. Based on the interest we've seen on this and other forums, people will pay that plus any profit you'd role in. I just spent $200 on a kit for my Honda and as far as I am concerned it was a bargain compared to the hassles we have with Subaru line-in solutions. So while there is a benefit to a larger order in helping offset the up front costs, commiting to a large order is not required. And by the way, why don't you relax. We've been tinkering with this for over a year and we're not idiots here, nor are we in competition. Your business plan is not going to succeed if you come across brusquely (to say it politely). I already have a solution working in my car, but there is a good opprotunity for someone to turn this into a healthy little side business. The parts cost is low, the upfront costs for a board are slightly higher, but the real difficulty is in soldering the fine-pitch connectors to the board. To me that just begs for a fab job. The online fab services can crank out the boards with connectors quite easily. Craig

[jazzymt]

Sorry for coming of "brusquely". It's not my design, and I have no interest in making this a side business, I've said so from the beginning. As an alternative to your suggestion, I think I have a better idea: Someone with a little more familiarity than me with these design programs and the fab companies should just make a "file" and post it so that each person can order their own perfectly constructed prototype at will.

[caramall2]

I'm one of the silent ones checking out the thread--for $40 or so bucks, I'd be glad to try a board out. Heck, I'd pre-pay you to give it a whirl. It's good to see people trying to solve the problem. (It's humorous (but not surprising) how many DIY-ers there are amongst us--it must run in the Subaru blood. I'm wired that way myself.) It's been said a thousand times but...I just upgraded my 95 honda with a $250 stereo and it does everying I want--mp3, line in, etc--sad they can make a $30,000 without such basics. [quote name='jazzymt']Sorry for coming of "brusquely". It's not my design, and I have no interest in making this a side business, I've said so from the beginning. As an alternative to your suggestion, I think I have a better idea: Someone with a little more familiarity than me with these design programs and the fab companies should just make a "file" and post it so that each person can order their own perfectly constructed prototype at will.[/QUOTE]

[jazzymt]

YAY!!! It WORKS! I had one small problem with my board, pin 4 wasn't completely soldered, which I think must be the power because the CD player wouldn't turn on, the stereo acted like it didn't exist. Anyway, a few min with the multimeter & a soldering iron and it's all good. Finally, a real Aux-in HURRAY! Thanks centerpunch, it works like a dream. Ok, so now that i'm done congradulating myself, I'll get the gears rolling on the "production" version. Between the tricky soldering and the unending suggestions to get the boards fabed out-of-house and raise the price, I think I'll take [b]some[/b] of the good advice floating around and get the boards fabbed by a pro and buy a much better soldering iron. It's not that tricky, but with a home-made etch, home-drilled holes and a so-so soldering iron, it could be easier. I may actually be able to take advantage of a promo and get the boards made for v. cheap...I'll know for sure next week. I'll still assemble them to keep the costs down though...I know there are places that will do this step, but I just don't think it's worth the diff in price...and I'd rather have you all subsidize a new soldering iron /cackle As a side note, for future plans...I think this ribbon solution holds exciting possibilities for improvement. Obviously all the power, controls, audio & digital communication for the cd player are on this ribbon (it's the only connection to the CD player). That means, simply interrupting this cable could allow complete control & track display (pro'ly only number) of an ipod through the factory headunit. As a lesser goal, it should definitely be possible to "trick" the amp into thinking the cd player is on through this connection and actually turn it off. You could even use a certain cd command combo to turn on the aux in, like "CD3 + track down" or something. Anyway, that's the sort of thing I think is worth investing a couple hundred dollars in...not this simple hack. The simple hack works great for now though :)

[centerpunch]

Wow, my little thread is still going, 12 months later! Glad you guys are still working on it.

 

And now for something completely different: My unused JDM sport grill is on ebay, see http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-grill-for-2005-Subaru-Legacy-GT-grille-new_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ36475QQitemZ7997939452QQrdZ1

[Ken S]

[quote name='jazzymt']YAY!!! It WORKS! [/QUOTE] Hey congrats!! How's the sound quality? You mentioned using a different resistor setup compared to centerpunch to minimize signal loss. Would you mind sharing what your schematic looks like? Is the audio coming from your iPod as loud as a CD? Ken

[jazzymt]

Sound quality is flawless as near as my ears can tell. CD quality anyway. I'm actually using an XM Roady2 as my sound source, not an Ipod (don't own one), and it sounds great. I can adjust the line level (note, this is not intended for headphones use, it is a true line level out) on my XM from 1-10, and it's at 6 now and it's as close to CD line level as I can determine. Probably 4 thru 7 for me would be fine. If there's signal loss, it's pretty dern small. The loudness is great too because as I think someone else here mentioned, there are diminishing returns on bass when you turn up the volume on this stereo, so now my bass is much louder...might have to knock it down a peg actually.

 

Anyway, they finally all match between FM / CD & XM in loudness and XM sounds superb. I realized my hardwire FM mod was hurting my XM reception too when I yanked that out and I don't loose signal nearly as much anymore. Double kick ass for me!

 

As far as the circuit change, all I did was remove centerpunch's extra resistor on the amp side (see diagram). If you wanted to keep the same total resistance (which I did not), I would still remove that resistor and change the other two to 2k resistors, so your source to amp resistance is 2k, but your source to source resistance is 4k, not 2k...eh?

 

Oh yea, and I just got off the phone with the PCB fab place and it looks like I can get a very good intro price on my first set of boards. So, consider me ready for orders. Everyone that has committed to ordering one already I'll provide at the earlier stated price of $25 and everyone else I'll sell them at an only slightly increased $30 to compensate for the pro-fabbed boards. $5 shipping & handling via USPS, or pick & pay your own shipping method of choice. (So, if you order 1, it's $35, 2 is $65, etc.)

 

Probably the easiest way for me to manage this is for you to PM me on this site with your Name, Address, order qty & email and I'll email you a Paypal "bill" (i think that works) when I'm ready to ship, which should be some time next week. First come, first serve. I was thinking my first board qty should be 100? Less doesn't really reduce the price much...nobody thinks I'll need more do ya?

 

 

Oh yea, and the regular disclaimers apply: This can and will blow up your stereo, car, house; cause bodily injury or death. This is purely for hobby/ educational/ novelty value and I'm not responsible for any damage it does to you, your car, stereo, dog or relationship. If you don't know what you're doing, be afraid, don't do it, get help, or whatever is the most applicable answer for you. I must admit I share mvigneau's opinion that dissassemlbing your stereo & installing this little device is a daunting task. It's not too much harder than taking your dash apart for those brave & experienced in electronics (dis)assembly, but I don't think I would even consider installing them for less than $200 each, mostly because I'd be too concerned about frying/scratching/loosing or otherwise damaging someone else's precious stereo/ACC...an expensive problem to say the least.

 

~edit~ Sorry, more details I left out...orders include:

1) Aux in board w/finish soldered components

2) 2" Patch ribbon cable (to go from board to amp)

3) 75 minute Silent CD

4) Detailed installation instructions (including pictures, pointers, etc.)

 

You can see some of the pics from my prototype install here:

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2527&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

[Ken S]

Sweet. I PMed you yesterday after reading your post! One question -- I was looking at your photos over at Suabruoutback.org and was wondering if you had to do anything to secure your board inside the HU. Or do you just leave it floating with just the mechanical support of the ribbon cable? Ken

[jazzymt]

It's so small & light I just left it floating. I was thinking about how to secure a bigger more complicated version though...it's not a simple problem/solution unfortunately. If you were concerned, I would try taping either the board or the stereo patch cable to the metal enclosure next to it, probably with some foam, more tape or something to insulate, but I don't have a whole lot better suggestion. That's part of the reason I wrapped the stereo cable around inside, I would also probably recommend zip-tying it at the entrance to the HU to keep it from yanking stuff out, but I just trusted the friction & let it all float...probably not the best idea, but thankfully it didn't burn me.

[rony]

You have a PM from me. :D

[motion_157]

mvigneau's solution doesn't require a silent cd, does it?

[05_Sport]

sent you a PM, would like to order one.

[jazzymt]

[quote name='motion_157']mvigneau's solution doesn't require a silent cd, does it?[/QUOTE]No, but it does require a CD to be playing...it can just be any CD.

[mvigneau]

Check out my solution and price list!!! Works great and no CD playing needed!! :) :) :) [url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18870[/url]