Comments about the Spec B

[GT2.5]

The spec b. is just "special."

 

For some strnage reason the Spec b. just pulls harder and gets quicker times.

 

It has nothing to do with being number 002.

 

Have you ever watched herbie?

 

NUF SAID

 

With lighter suspension components, performance is enhanced.

Also, if the 18" wheels are ligher than the 17's, acceleration will be quicker due to lower unsprung weight. The braking is better on the Spec B as well.

That can be a number of contributions such as stickier rubber, better pad material, and lower unsprung weight.

 

TT

[GT2.5]

repost

[rfd425]

Thus, we have MSRP on which to base what Subaru values the Spec B. THAT is the number which I am comparing.

Look over my post again, and you'll see that.

That's what I'm comparing too in my last post; however, you can't ignore the $1,500 rebate that is not available on the Spec B.

 

Also, if the car has options you don't want, then it's not the car for you.

Great. It's your choice. However, there is not reason to put down those who wants those options and feel the price is pretty darn good.

I don't think anyone in this thread was putiing down any Spec B owners; we/they were just saying that SOA could have made the car more appealing to a wider range of enthusiasts if they had tweaked the offering just slightly. Also, some of us were put off by the fact that some dealers were asking $5K over MSRP for the Spec B. Even at MSRP, which the early Spec B's were going for, the price difference is $7-8K over an LGT at $1,000 under invoice, which is the price many dealers offer right off the bat. That's the frame of reference most of the critics are using. Nobody thinks the Spec B is a terrible deal at invoice, other than the fact that it has options -- primarily the Nav -- that they may not want.

As far as modding goes, lots of people talk about it and most don't do it. The Spec B has performance parts that make it better than the LGT limited right out of the box. There is a reason why the Spec B won the AWD sport sedan comparo in Road&Track, when price dependent.

No argument there -- the Spec B is a better car out of the box. I'd certainly trade my LGT for one straight up. However, this is an enthusiast website, and many people here do, in fact, do mods.

 

I too would like to have seen the Spec B offered without the $2000 NAV option, as I had mentioned. But, there it is. In the grand scheme of pricing, however, the NAV doesn't cost $2000 when packaged in the Spec B.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The $2,000 price of the Nav is certainly figured into the $34K+ price of the Spec B.

[rfd425]

With lighter suspension components, performance is enhanced.

Also, if the 18" wheels are ligher than the 17's, acceleration will be quicker due to lower unsprung weight. The braking is better on the Spec B as well.

That can be a number of contributions such as stickier rubber, better pad material, and lower unsprung weight.

The Spec B overall is heavier than the LGT limited, even with the aluminum suspension components. The 18" wheel/tire package is in fact heavier than the 17" LGT tire/wheels. The brakes are identical, although the Spec B has stickier tires. Acceleration on the Spec B is hurt relative to the LGT by the larger diameter tires, resulting in a lower final drive ratio.

[GT2.5]

The Spec B overall is heavier than the LGT limited, even with the aluminum suspension components. The 18" wheel/tire package is in fact heavier than the 17" LGT tire/wheels. The brakes are identical, although the Spec B has stickier tires. Acceleration on the Spec B is hurt relative to the LGT by the larger diameter tires, resulting in a lower final drive ratio.

 

Yes. Generally, larger overall diameter in the wheels results in slower accel. due gearing change, which gives a HIGHER final drive, not lower. Lower final drive gives faster acceleration.

However, is the overall diameter actually bigger with the 18's?

Did they compensate for the potential added diameter by going with a tire that has a shorter profile?

 

Do you have the spec's on the weight of the 18 vs. 17 wheel/tire package?

What is the weight difference?

 

From what I understand there has been some change to the rotor's from 05 to 06. Also, some have said that the Spec B has different brake pads.

Braking is very effected by better tires, and the OEM LGT tires aren't that great.

 

What in the Spec B makes it overall heavier than the LGT limited, especially when major suspension parts are cast from aluminum instead of steel? That's odd.

 

I haven't seen the weight spec's between the models as I just started researching this car. It would be very hard to explain why a heavier car, with larger overall wheel diameter, and heavier wheels/tires would post better accel and decel numbers than any LGT tested before it, AND it was running on 91 octane gas. If all that is true, then that was one fine example of "factory" Spec B.

 

TT

[2006Specb122]

Like I said.. it is "special"

 

[ilh]

An LGT limited (no NAV) is $30,378

According to Edmunds:

 

MSRP for LGT Limited 5MT (no NAV) is 29,420, with TMV of 27,687. You must have been quoting 5EAT and/or other options?

 

MSRP for SpecB is 35,009, with TMV of 32,907.

 

That's a $5220 difference. Factor out the NAV and you have $3220 for the suspension bits, wheels, and tires.

[GT2.5]

According to Edmunds:

 

MSRP for LGT Limited 5MT (no NAV) is 29,420, with TMV of 27,687. You must have been quoting 5EAT and/or other options?

 

MSRP for SpecB is 35,009, with TMV of 32,907.

 

That's a $5220 difference. Factor out the NAV and you have $3220 for the suspension bits, wheels, and tires.

 

First, I want to address the weight.

According to Subaru's spec's, the LGT Limited (manual) has a curb weight of 3400lbs.

The Spec B is 3400lbs. So, it seems that the aluminum bits did save about 100lbs., which accounts for some of the performance gain.

(correction: LGT limited manual curb weight is 3365lbs. The Spec B weighs 35lbs. more.)

 

The LGT limited has to have the appearance package added as that is what the Spec B has, plus you need to add the metal pedals.

That comes to $30,378 delivered.

We can't just pick and choose apples to oranges to meet the price difference we want. We have to TRY and account for the variables and attempt to make the cars equally optioned. The things that can not be equalled is where the difference in price sits, and that is where the extra money is being charged.

 

So, the Spec B is $35,009, but that is with a $2000 NAV system, which is how much one would pay Subaru's MSRP if they wanted one.

Thus, the cloest match to the LGT limited, as compared to a Spec B, is

$35,009 minus the $2000 NAV and that leaves a price of $33,009.

The LGT limited is $30,378. The difference in cost is $2631.

If you want to work the math the other way around, then add the $2000 cost of the NAV to the LGT limited.

It works out the same way.

 

Again, I'm using the MSRP, as that is what Subaru prices the vehicles at.

We already know, and accept that different regions, and different dealers can give a better price. Those prices are variable, very variable.

When the LGT first came out they were NOT selling at invoice, yet alone UNDER invoice. So, why is it fair to now use the discounted prices when comparing the Spec B to the LGT?

In a realistic sense, the Spec B can be had at invoice as well.

Rebates simply add yet another variable. Real as the rebate is, the only constant that can be used to compare content is MSRP.

Now, if one values a lower price, then of course one should take the deal, if the other car doesn't appeal to them at it's price point. It's called choice.

 

However, my whole point, is that the Spec B is competitively priced within it's own line, and very competitive to the other brands it competes with.

And, it's offers a greater performance to the LGT limited while maintaining it's full warranty.

 

It is too bad that Subaru didn't offer the Spec B without NAV, because the way a lot of you are talking you would have bought the Spec B, and would have been singing it's praises and "value".

Without the NAV the Spec B would be $33,009 and the sport package, metal pedal added LGT would be $30,378.

Would you have bought the Spec B if the difference was only $2631 and you didn't want NAV?

 

Still, the whole Legacy line is a great automobile and the low price along with the rebates just makes the whole deal even sweeter.

 

TT

[vet]

The more I hear about the Spec B the more I scratch my head - what was their intent?

 

Almost all sport suspension packages I've ever heard of lower the ride height. So what does Subaru do --- they raise the ride height on the Spec B by swapping 18" wheels while not lowering the tire profile!!!

 

18" wheels/tires --- what is the purpose??? Brake size didn't change. They are heavier and have the same width tires/wheels. Oh yeah, they swapped out summer rubber for the RE-92's, coulda done that on stock wheels and saved a bunch of money and some unsprung weight. If they were serious about performance they would have gone with 17x8" lightweight wheels and 235/40 tires.

 

They go to the expense of using Bilstein struts and aluminum goodies but leave the stock springs and antiroll bars???

 

They don't even bother to include the factory short shifter --- does this mean they really don't think the short shifter is any better than stock???

 

Probable 6mt on the 07's --- this may be nice but it will raise weight even more and could easily raise the price 750-1000???

[Beanboy]

Spec B weighs more than LGT Limited.

 

3400 versus 3365.

[GT2.5]

The more I hear about the Spec B the more I scratch my head - what was their intent?

 

Almost all sport suspension packages I've ever heard of lower the ride height. So what does Subaru do --- they raise the ride height on the Spec B by swapping 18" wheels while not lowering the tire profile!!!

 

18" wheels/tires --- what is the purpose??? Brake size didn't change. They are heavier and have the same width tires/wheels. Oh yeah, they swapped out summer rubber for the RE-92's, coulda done that on stock wheels and saved a bunch of money and some unsprung weight. If they were serious about performance they would have gone with 17x8" lightweight wheels and 235/40 tires.

 

They go to the expense of using Bilstein struts and aluminum goodies but leave the stock springs and antiroll bars???

 

They don't even bother to include the factory short shifter --- does this mean they really don't think the short shifter is any better than stock???

 

Probable 6mt on the 07's --- this may be nice but it will raise weight even more and could easily raise the price 750-1000???

 

I'm with you on a lot of your points.

I'm not a fan of larger than 17" wheels. Wider contact patch would have better impact on overall handling and grip.

 

I like the suspension parts though. Lightening those parts has a big impact on how well they respond and function. Also, springs once in the proper weight bearing, don't need replacing, unless you want to lower the car.

The dampers make the difference as the dampers are what control the motion of the spring. As far as lowering the car, yes that would help cornering in that the center of gravity is lowered, but by leaving the suspension higher it gives more travel, and that allows the chassis to have more room to move giving potentially a better compromise of ride to handling.

 

And, the short shifter should have been included in the car. The optional performance parts should have been included. But, Subaru doesn't even include the short shifter on the STI. I see it listed as an option on Edmunds website. I don't get that.

 

A 6spd. is only good for having a taller overdrive gear really. It is there to give better MPG when applied well. With modern engines giving huge torque spreads there isn't a big need to have more gears. Typical Honda engines need more gears as they build their smaller 4's with high rev HP and you need to keep the engine spinning to get the power, and their engines have a narrow torque bands. Thus, they need shorter and more gears to keep in the power band.

More than more gears I'd like better operation and better feel.

A 6th gear would be welcome if it is designed to really drop RPM when cruising at high speed.

 

TT

[GT2.5]

Spec B weighs more than LGT Limited.

 

3400 versus 3365.

 

Yes, you are correct.

My mistake. I looked at the wrong vehicle.

 

So, the Spec B is actually 35lbs heavier than a LGT limited with manual.

 

TT

[rfd425]

Yes. Generally, larger overall diameter in the wheels results in slower accel. due gearing change, which gives a HIGHER final drive, not lower. Lower final drive gives faster acceleration.

However, is the overall diameter actually bigger with the 18's?

Did they compensate for the potential added diameter by going with a tire that has a shorter profile?

 

Do you have the spec's on the weight of the 18 vs. 17 wheel/tire package?

What is the weight difference?

According to Keefe (Xenonk), larger diameter tires result in TALLER gearing, but a LOWER final drive ratio. He corrected me on this a while back, and I'm inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about. The standard LGT tires are 215/45/17. The Spec B tires are 215/45/18. Therefore, the sidewalls are the same height, and the Spec B tires are a full inch larger in diameter. I don't know the respective weight figures off the top of my head, but the tires and the wheels on the Spec B are larger, and the Spec B wheels are not a lightweight wheel. Also, someone researched it a while back, and found out that the aluminum suspension parts only save something like 10 pounds (that's still a nice savings on unsprung weight, and I wish I had the aluminum arms on my LGT, but at best, it helps to offset the extra weight of the tire/wheel package.

 

From what I understand there has been some change to the rotor's from 05 to 06. Also, some have said that the Spec B has different brake pads.

Braking is very effected by better tires, and the OEM LGT tires aren't that great.

I don't know of any change in the rotors on the LGT from '05 to '06, but I assume you're comparing the Spec B to an '06 anyway. There is no difference in the Spec B pads. You're right that tires make a big difference, though.

 

What in the Spec B makes it overall heavier than the LGT limited, especially when major suspension parts are cast from aluminum instead of steel? That's odd.

There's a whole thread on this somewhere here. the Cliff Notes are that the aluminum saves very little weight, and the tires/wheels are considerably heavier.

[rfd425]

So, it seems that the aluminum bits did save about 100lbs.

huh?

 

Rebates simply add yet another variable. Real as the rebate is, the only constant that can be used to compare content is MSRP.

No, sorry, that is faulty logic. The $1,000 rebate (now $1,500) was available from Day 1 on '06 LGT's, and has never been available on the Spec B. The only valid comparison is the real world price that a car can be purchased for.

However, my whole point, is that the Spec B is competitively priced within it's own line, and very competitive to the other brands it competes with.

And, it's offers a greater performance to the LGT limited while maintaining it's full warranty.

Agreed, if you are able to strike a deal of invoice or lower on the Spec B, and you want all the equipmant it comes with.

[GT2.5]

huh?

 

No, sorry, that is faulty logic. The $1,000 rebate (now $1,500) was available from Day 1 on '06 LGT's, and has never been available on the Spec B. The only valid comparison is the real world price that a car can be purchased for.

Agreed, if you are able to strike a deal of invoice or lower on the Spec B, and you want all the equipmant it comes with.

 

The weight issue, I corrected as I was looking at the wrong vehicle.

The Spec B lists about 35lbs. heavier.

 

We'll disagree on the "faulty logic". You can't compare like for like when you have a variable that changes from market to market and deal to deal.

Also, I'm speaking about the LGT when it first came out, not just the 06 models. The Spec B is first run, and that's why I'm comparing it to the LGT in it's first run when you could not get one below invoice.

And, I know it's not available on the Spec B, but no one said it was I believe.

 

Thus, according to your final statement, we are in agreement, finally.

 

T

[SC GT]

It's funny, but the difference between the '05 GT and GT Ltd. (leather, moonroof) were not great enough to get me to spring for the Ltd. But, with the addition of Nav, Rims, Tires, and suspension, plus a nice color, if I didn't have my '05 and was going to buy an '06, I'd spend the extra and buy the the Spec B (assuming, of course, that I could get a decent deal on a Spec B and would not have to pay MSRP).

[GT2.5]

According to Keefe (Xenonk), larger diameter tires result in TALLER gearing, but a LOWER final drive ratio. He corrected me on this a while back, and I'm inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about. The standard LGT tires are 215/45/17. The Spec B tires are 215/45/18. Therefore, the sidewalls are the same height, and the Spec B tires are a full inch larger in diameter. I don't know the respective weight figures off the top of my head, but the tires and the wheels on the Spec B are larger, and the Spec B wheels are not a lightweight wheel. Also, someone researched it a while back, and found out that the aluminum suspension parts only save something like 10 pounds (that's still a nice savings on unsprung weight, and I wish I had the aluminum arms on my LGT, but at best, it helps to offset the extra weight of the tire/wheel package.

 

I don't know of any change in the rotors on the LGT from '05 to '06, but I assume you're comparing the Spec B to an '06 anyway. There is no difference in the Spec B pads. You're right that tires make a big difference, though.

 

There's a whole thread on this somewhere here. the Cliff Notes are that the aluminum saves very little weight, and the tires/wheels are considerably heavier.

 

I got the rotor information from this forum, so I can't validate it's truth.

I think the man said that now the rotors were vented (in back) where they may have been solid before. Also, the information on this forum suggests that the Spec B does have different pads, again I can't say yes or no as I'm forwarding that info.

 

The wheels are definately taller as they did keep tire width and ratio the same at 215/45. 215/45/17 OEM tires are 24" and the 215/45/18 are 25.7", which is a good deal more. I wonder if Suby did do some gearing changes or maybe adjusted the final drive? I don't have that data yet.

Also, ABS and AWD systems are sensitive to tire diameter. So, some changes had to have been made to accomodate the 1.7" change.

 

Now, as far as the taller wheel/tire package, the overall effect of acceleration and top speed would be changed IF, Suby didn't do any changes to the gearing, which I find hard to believe. The larger overall wheel diameter would give a higher top speed and lower the rpm at any given MPH. That's easy to check. If you have an LGT, what is your RPM at 60mph in 5th? Then, let's have someone with a Spec B list their RPM at 60mph in 5th. If the gearing is the same we should see a difference in RPM. If adjustments have been made then we should see nearly the same RPM. Are there different MPG ratings for the Spec B over the LGT?

 

Yes, a greater tire diameter results in "taller" gearing, which also has a "lower number".

Here is good explanation, after searching for one that explained clearly.

http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/tech_gearing.htm

 

On larger wheels, the mass is moved outward from the center thus requiring more torque to move that wheel. That's why I don't care for larger and larger wheels. It's more a "tuner" cosmetic thing than worthy of performance. So, I am surprised that Subaru choose to keep the tire size as they did, yet the Spec B put up the best numbers of any Legacy tested, and those were real numbers not adjusted.

 

Overall, I wonder what the 35lb difference is? Can it simply be the

Wheels/tires and the NAV system? But then, the aluminum bits should have helped there as well.

If I get a Spec B, I will get tires that better match the 17" size, unless I find out that Suby has done some gearing changes to adjust for the larger 18" wheels.

 

T

[GT2.5]

It's funny, but the difference between the '05 GT and GT Ltd. (leather, moonroof) were not great enough to get me to spring for the Ltd. But, with the addition of Nav, Rims, Tires, and suspension, plus a nice color, if I didn't have my '05 and was going to buy an '06, I'd spend the extra and buy the the Spec B (assuming, of course, that I could get a decent deal on a Spec B and would not have to pay MSRP).

 

I just got a great offer of $500 below invoice on a Spec B.

I'll be checking it out this weekend.

Of course, I still have 3 months left on my BMW, but I'm sure the dealer can work it out.

 

T

[rfd425]

We'll disagree on the "faulty logic". You can't compare like for like when you have a variable that changes from market to market and deal to deal.

Also, I'm speaking the the LGT when it first came out, not just the 06 models. The Spec B is first run, and that's why I'm comparing it to the LGT in it's first run when you could not get one below invoice.

And, I know it's not available on the Spec B, but no one said it was I believe.

 

Thus, according to your final statement, we are in agreement, finally.

I'm starting to think you are some regular poster's alter ego, and you are making these ridiculous posts just to bait people like me. I can't believe I'm wasting my time responding. If this is a gag, congratulations, you got me hook line and sinker.

 

But on the off chance that you are serious, what is the point of comparing an '05 LGT when they first came out to a Spec B? That is totally irrelevant. You made this long-winded argument about how a Spec B only costs $2,600 more than a comparably equipped LGT, and that's just not a viable argument. You talk about comparing apples and oranges to get the comparison we want, but that's exactly what you're doing. When the Spec B came out, buyers had a choice between it or the '06 LGT. That is the only relevant comparison. It is widely known that hundreds of Subaru dealers across the country will sell LGT's at invoice minus the factory rebate. Many will deliver, also. The lowest documented price I've seen on a Spec B is a couple hundred dollars below invoice. That is what one could buy one for if he worked at it. MSRP is absolutely meaningless except for marketing purposes and for the few uninformed consumers who walk into a car dealership and simply say "that price sounds fine, I'll take it."

 

No, you never said the rebate was available on the Spec B; you simply ignored it in your bogus price comparison. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. You seem to be impressed with the Spec B, and I agree that not only is it a very nice car, it is nicer than my LGT. If I could have purchased a Spec B for $2,600 more, I would have done it in a heartbeat. Even at $4,100, I probably would have gotten the Spec B. However, you've obviously got some complex about this that is making you construct these ludicrous arguments and comparisons.

 

If any mods or admins are reading this, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm flaming this guy. That's not my intention, but he's driving me frigging bananas with these arguments that have no basis in reality, in his need to justify something that nobody really ever called into question in the first place.

[rfd425]

I just got a great offer of $500 below invoice on a Spec B.

I'll be checking it out this weekend.

Of course, I still have 3 months left on my BMW, but I'm sure the dealer can work it out.

That is a great deal.

[rfd425]

Here's the thread where the Spec B owner investigates the weight difference:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24466

[GT2.5]

I'm starting to think you are some regular poster's alter ego, and you are making these ridiculous posts just to bait people like me. I can't believe I'm wasting my time responding. If this is a gag, congratulations, you got me hook line and sinker.

 

But on the off chance that you are serious, what is the point of comparing an '05 LGT when they first came out to a Spec B? That is totally irrelevant. You made this long-winded argument about how a Spec B only costs $2,600 more than a comparably equipped LGT, and that's just not a viable argument. You talk about comparing apples and oranges to get the comparison we want, but that's exactly what you're doing. When the Spec B came out, buyers had a choice between it or the '06 LGT. That is the only relevant comparison. It is widely known that hundreds of Subaru dealers across the country will sell LGT's at invoice minus the factory rebate. Many will deliver, also. The lowest documented price I've seen on a Spec B is a couple hundred dollars below invoice. That is what one could buy one for if he worked at it. MSRP is absolutely meaningless except for marketing purposes and for the few uninformed consumers who walk into a car dealership and simply say "that price sounds fine, I'll take it."

 

No, you never said the rebate was available on the Spec B; you simply ignored it in your bogus price comparison. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. You seem to be happy with your Spec B, and I agree that not only is it a very nice car, it is nicer than my LGT. If I could have purchased a Spec B for $2,600 more, I would have done it in a heartbeat. Even at $4,100, I probably would have gotten the Spec B. However, you've obviously got some complex about this that is making you construct these ludicrous arguments and comparisons.

 

If any mods or admins are reading this, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm flaming this guy. That's not my intention, but he's driving me frigging bananas with these arguments that have no basis in reality, in his need to justify his purchase that nobody really ever called into question in the first place.

 

My intention was to add an different view to the notion that the Spec B was/is overpriced. That is what I was addressing. Also, I DO NOT own a Spec B. You're too busy arguing and missed that. Thus, I'm not justifying anything.

 

My logic is perfectly sound. Just because you don't agree with it, or maybe don't understand it, I can't help that. I've tried to explain it, but with you, I sense that you don't want to look at things differently once you've made up your mind. That's cool, it's your choice

But, don't flame me for it. My intent isn't to tick anyone off, just to give a valid way to look at something.

 

I though we were in agreement, and then all of sudden, you're flaming me and going banana's. Sorry, but that's your thing to deal with not mine.

 

Now, please try and be cool. No on has set out against you.

You could also try being a bit more polite in your responses. If you don't understand, simply ask for clarification. If you still don't agree, then let it go, it's not that important.

 

T

[rfd425]

Here is Keefe's post explaining the correct terminology for "higher" vs. "lower" final drive ratio:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=281987&postcount=5

[GT2.5]

Here is Keefe's post explaining the correct terminology for "higher" vs. "lower" final drive ratio:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=281987&postcount=5

 

Hmmm...

A taller overall tire diameter will not give you faster acceleration.

The acceleration will be slower, smooth and the top speed of the vehicle should be higher as well.

 

I asked him for clarification.

 

T

[rfd425]

Yeah, GT2.5, I figured out that you don't own a Spec B. Notice that I edited my post a few minutes later. Let's consider it a wash with your mistake about the LGT's weight.

 

I was very polite when we started this little sub-thread discussion, but I lost my patience when you kept grasping at inconsistent arguments to justify your point. I understand your logic just fine, but it is NOT valid, at least not the part where a Spec B is only $2,600 more than a comparably equipped LGT limited. And I'm not going to just let it go when I don't agree, because you are coming on the forum and posting information that is not accurate.

 

Again, if this is a gag, you got me pretty good. I'm starting to find it hard to believe that this is real.