OEM Sidefeed to Topfeed TGV Conversion (05/06 to 07+ Conversion)

[Tehnation]

Why has god forsaken us lol? I really don't understand this environmental protection stuff, humans thinking they can help, save or protect mother earth is the most ridiculous, obnoxious and arrogant thing I have heard of. The planet doesn't need humans, hasn't needed us for millions of years..... it's safer to say we are protecting ourselves not the environment, if there was a nuclear holocaust tomorrow, sure the planet would be filled with radiation, but mother earth would shrug it off like a cold and keep it moving, several thousand years later the planet would be back to normal.... mankind on the other hand wouldn't fair so well. I'm just ranting don't mind me! 

I gotta look into these laws, they can't just apply it to every car, some don't even have computers. There has to be some model year stipulation like every car made after a certain year. Which I hope is the case, just means we gotta keep it old school in the future. I wasn't a big fan of electronic steering wheels anyway, like really my steering wheel isn't mechanically attached to the wheels lol, nope sorry thats where I draw the line! A friend I knew died from one of these gm cars with the electronic steering wheels, the steering wheel just slammed the car into the divider and the car set on fire.....  

[m sprank]

Still searching for fitment pix.  I swear I have some.  But this is what I have found of TGV's so far.  I dont know that this helps anyone. 

[Tehnation]

So that's a top feed with a set of 2 and 3 pin connectors? Does it work with our plastic manifolds?  

What are the chances that the sensor and actuator from the 05-06 lgt fit into that? 

Do they sell the tgv and the actuator and sensor separately or do you have to get it as a set? Should I check part numbers to see if the actuator and sensor are the same or have the same old suppressed part numbers? 

I have a set of 05 tgvs, I will go look for them and tear apart the tgvs to see if there is any chance of them fitting. Might take a day, no idea where I put them.

[m sprank]

You had 02-06/07 :

Impreza WRX ('02 thru '07)
Impreza WRX STI ('04 thru '06)
 Legacy GT ('05 & '06)
 Forester XT ('03 thru '07)

and 07/08+:
 Impreza WRX (2008 - 2014)
 Impreza WRX STI (2007 - 2020)
 Legacy GT (2007 - 2012)
 Forester XT (2008 - 2013)

[Tehnation]

Soooo, the actuator and sensor can work in any of the 02-06/07 tgvs. So plug and play? 

Why is subaru so confusing, I thought the 04-06 sti's where side feed, but i am seeing top feed sti tgvs for those years as well. 

[m sprank]

Visuals of the cover plates for the different TGV's. 

[shralp]

if it helps any I can shoot some detailed pics of my '06 FXT TGV's for comparison as well... 

[Tehnation]

1 hour ago, shralp said:

if it helps any I can shoot some detailed pics of my '06 FXT TGV's for comparison as well... 

Please do! 

[m sprank]

2 hours ago, Tehnation said:

Soooo, the actuator and sensor can work in any of the 02-06/07 tgvs. So plug and play? 

Why is subaru so confusing, I thought the 04-06 sti's where side feed, but i am seeing top feed sti tgvs for those years as well. 

04-06 usdm sti were sidefeed. 

I dont speak jdm.  I never concerned myself with that which was not avilable stateside.  I try not to add to the confusion. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by m sprank

[Tehnation]

Are jdm part numbers the same as usdm? 

[m sprank]

No.

[KZJonny]

20 hours ago, Tehnation said:

Years ago 05-06 people like me who wanted to go top feed but didn't want to spend 1000 bucks or so on a fuel rail kit figured why bother when you can go to the junk yard grab some top feed fuel rails for like 50 bucks, then buy a topfeed tgv delete kit for like 200-400 bucks wtih enough change to get a phenolic spacers. The tgv delete wasn't really the main purpose it was more a byproduct, like if i'm going topfeed why not just buy aftermarket deletes its basically free horsepower at that point(compared to buying a 1000 dollar kit), not much if any but like I said it's free so why not.  So for less than 500 bucks basically you could go topfeed and get the tgv deletes and spacers, saving you 500 bucks towards better injectors. It was just purely more efficient economically to go that route. Now fast forward and it may come back to bite us in the ass lol. Back then the tgv was out of site and out of mind so the electronics never came into the picture, cause you just turn it off! 

Got it. Times have changed, and I have this feeling like there are a lot of things that were just never similar in Canada, or at least anywhere I've lived.

I hear lots of stories of people just "going to the scrapyard and finding solid gold", which I believe applies more frequently in the US than anywhere I've ever lived in Canada. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that we have many fewer pick a part type yards (although that trend is changing a little) and that cars like GT/XT s almost never end up in them. But, sometimes you get lucky.

In my case, is seems like the problem isn't getting hardware to fit the car, since they seem to be old enough now that there is a huuuge stockpile of parts from wrecked Subies all over. It's more that I went with COBB for my tuning platform. I do not think there is any way I can have the DTC codes deleted if I don't have a functional TGV in the car.

Not important to do the delete for a street driven car, as noted by @Underdog but I'm thinking long term and what would I do if the motors or sensors fail. Far easier to delete the things than it is to fix/replace them....

So, if I need to uprgrade injectors, it does seem like fuel rails are the easiest option, but I do remain stuck with the extra wiring and failure potential of the OE TGV system. I mean, I guess I *could* just run some wiring to the spare tire well and have a couple of stepper motors doing their thing back there to keep the computer happy!  

It would be kinda nice to have that extra input to the ECU tho...

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by KZJonny

[KZJonny]

5 minutes ago, Underdog said:

@KZJonny That’s the beauty of the emulator solution - a couple of relays and two voltage dividers and the ECU will see normal operation for many years to come. Removing the flappers and leaving the sensors/actuators bolted up is a fine solution, until the items fail and you need to track down a replacement. The servo plates are a nice workaround, but have the same limitations. The electrical solution is not complicated, again I could prototype this with parts I already have, but it will be a more robust solution with a small PCB and some solid state devices. 

Claro...

I'd 100% be in for this kind of solution, and will help if I can, but as noted, my knowledge of electronics is pretty limited. I can understand when someone comes up with a solution how it works, but could never put together something from scratch. Maybe there is enough interest from enough people to throw some $$ at this? Dunno.

It doesn't seem like a big ask to figure out how to send the correct signal to the ECU that will emulate those it wants from functioning TGV's either, does it?

Part of my continued curiosity is that my GT is a 'warm' weather only car, so it really probably doesn't need the TGVs for much, and they are a potential failure point. I'm looking at this more from the perspective of reducing those given the age of the car, and that I am at least planning on driving it for another couple decades. I guess if I were really commited reducing failure points I would be riding my bike everywhere, or driving a stock NA Honda, but I think you all get the gist.

[Tehnation]

21 hours ago, m sprank said:

You had 02-06/07 :

Impreza WRX ('02 thru '07)
Impreza WRX STI ('04 thru '06)
 Legacy GT ('05 & '06)
 Forester XT ('03 thru '07)

and 07/08+:
 Impreza WRX (2008 - 2014)
 Impreza WRX STI (2007 - 2020)
 Legacy GT (2007 - 2012)
 Forester XT (2008 - 2013)

 

So the actuators and sensors are the same part numbers for these years?

You had 02-06/07 :

Impreza WRX ('02 thru '07)
Impreza WRX STI ('04 thru '06)
 Legacy GT ('05 & '06)
 Forester XT ('03 thru '07)

So 14011AB540 is the part number for the intake manifold for an 05 lgt. And this is what it lists as fitment for other vehicles. 

Subaru Legacy 2.5L TURBO 5AT 4WD GT Limited Sedan	2005, 2006
Subaru Legacy 2.5L TURBO 5AT 4WD GT Limited Wagon	2005, 2006
Subaru Legacy 2.5L TURBO 5AT 4WD GT Wagon	2005, 2006
Subaru Legacy 2.5L TURBO 5MT 4WD GT Limited Sedan	2005, 2006
Subaru Legacy 2.5L TURBO 5MT 4WD GT Limited Wagon	2005, 2006
Subaru Legacy 2.5L TURBO 5MT 4WD GT Wagon	2005, 2006
Subaru Legacy 2.5L TURBO 6MT 4WD GT Limited Sedan	2006
Subaru Outback 2.5L TURBO 5AT XT	2005, 2006
Subaru Outback 2.5L TURBO 5AT XT Limited	2005, 2006
Subaru Outback 2.5L TURBO 5MT XT	2005, 2006
Subaru Outback 2.5L TURBO 5MT XT Limited	2005, 2006

 

So no forester.. forgot that it might be metal, but we haven't confirmed if the forester tgv to our plastic manifold bolt holes lines up. If they do, that may be a simple plug and play route to consider. Or did we already confirm the XT doesn't line up? 

[Tehnation]

6 hours ago, Underdog said:

That’s what I’m saying. I already have the values (on first page of this thread) and a schematic. It’s not a money problem - we just need someone who can review my schematic for best practices and design a board in KiCAD, which we could have printed in a minimum batch size for a small cost. But I also don’t need this for my car, and I have plenty of other projects to keep me occupied. 

Maybe post another thread to a broader audience, this is purely electrical right? Some people might not even look at this thread cause the topic is about fueling, which isn't everyone's cup of tea. Maybe try a different topic as well asking for electricians, engineers, etc. hopefully some other person who has more knowledge can help out. This is a very specific skill set, one that I run away from lol. 

[Tehnation]

They only made the 06 XT intake manifold for that 1 year which is odd. 

https://parts.subaru.com/p/Subaru_2006_Forester-25L-TURBO-MT-XT-Sports/Engine-Intake-Manifold/49226348/14001AB832.html

Only works with 06's 

Subaru Forester 2.5L TURBO AT XT Sports	2006
Subaru Forester 2.5L TURBO MT XT Sports	2006
Subaru Impreza 2.5L TURBO 5MT 4WD WRX Sedan	2006
Subaru Impreza 2.5L TURBO 5MT 4WD WRX TR Sedan	2006
Subaru Impreza 2.5L TURBO 5MT 4WD WRX Wagon	2006
Subaru Impreza 2.5L TURBO AT 4WD WRX Sedan	2006
Subaru Impreza 2.5L TURBO AT 4WD WRX Wagon	2006
Subaru WRX 2.5L TURBO 5MT 4WD SEDAN	2006
Subaru WRX 2.5L TURBO 5MT 4WD TR SEDAN	2006
Subaru WRX 2.5L TURBO 5MT 4WD WAGON	2006
Subaru WRX 2.5L TURBO AT 4WD SEDAN	2006
Subaru WRX 2.5L TURBO AT 4WD WAGON	2006

Part numbers for 06 XT tgv 

Part Number: 14011AB373
Supersession(s): 14011AB371; 14011AB372

Part Number: 14011AB364
Supersession(s): 14011AB361; 14011AB362; 14011AB363

 

[shralp]

Photos of my '06 FXT TGV's for you guys.  I had already pulled the butterflies and did a light port to clean up the insides but I left the partition wall since power gains were going to be negligible.  

[Tehnation]

do you still have your side feed tgvs for comparison? 

[shralp]

Unfortunately those are long gone when I switched to top feed years ago

[gkstar]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:45 PM, Tehnation said:

Years ago 05-06 people like me who wanted to go top feed but didn't want to spend 1000 bucks or so on a fuel rail kit figured why bother when you can go to the junk yard grab some top feed fuel rails for like 50 bucks, then buy a topfeed tgv delete kit for like 200-400 bucks wtih enough change to get a phenolic spacers. The tgv delete wasn't really the main purpose it was more a byproduct, like if i'm going topfeed why not just buy aftermarket deletes its basically free horsepower at that point(compared to buying a 1000 dollar kit), not much if any but like I said it's free so why not.  So for less than 500 bucks basically you could go topfeed and get the tgv deletes and spacers, saving you 500 bucks towards better injectors. It was just purely more efficient economically to go that route. Now fast forward and it may come back to bite us in the ass lol. Back then the tgv was out of site and out of mind so the electronics never came into the picture, cause you just turn it off! 

For those with experience in the sidefeed to topfeed conversion kits. Do the new rails provide any more support than a stock top feed rail would? Could you just use these from radium with stock top feed lines http://www.radiumauto.com/Injector-Seats-for-Subaru-Top-Feed-Conversion-Fuel-Rails-P628.aspx

[rhino6303]

Couldn't we just use a DPDT relay with the + and - pins?

Edited February 8, 2023 by rhino6303

[KZJonny]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:23 PM, Tehnation said:

do you still have your side feed tgvs for comparison? 

I just pulled an ‘05 side feed tgv off of my spare engine, if pictures of that will help. Can take measurements as needed.

(spare/parts engine may now be scrap, after sitting under a tarp on a stand in my back yard for 2 years… different story altogether. Might be salvageable.)

[Tehnation]

FUCK! Tuner just told me I need tgvs, pcv system(got that), and the damn catted downpipe which I bought cause they said I needed one, might not be good enough....... I just want to break things and curse right now..... I was scheduled for a dyno tune on the 25th, back to square one. I am so sick of this already.

So my question is this, is it the actual Cobb software that these tuners use the issue, where it won't let you mess with the tgv, or is it the tuner covering his ass due to laws etc. Cause at this point if every tuner is turning into a tree hugger, then I better pay that 150 for the cobb tuning software class, and do it myself. But if the software is the issue, then I gotta go opensource. This is just stupid. Cause from the looks of it, fudging the tgv signals isn't what these tuners are looking for, they actually want to do it by the book, so playing with signals to trick the computer might not be enough, they might actually want it to WORK lol. 

 

[m sprank]

I am fairly certain that Cobb changed the software on the tuners as well and they do not have access to all of the defined tables anymore. 

 

EcuTeK.

Edited February 14, 2023 by m sprank

[Tehnation]

is ecutek street legal? will it work with my oem ecu so I don't have check engine lights etc.  is it standalone or piggyback, basically can I pass inspection with ecutek?  How much are we talking for ecutek? I might just sell my cobb accessport and reinvest.