OEM Sidefeed to Topfeed TGV Conversion (05/06 to 07+ Conversion)

[m sprank]

I am thinknig this is what led to the deletuon of our previous conversations. Fear of god put into forum.  I suggest taking this to a private dicussion at this point. 

[KZJonny]

The diagram doesn’t involve a length of steel pipe and a bag of nails. I think we should be okay?!

Really tho. I think lots of people aren’t looking to this to delete TGV’s, but just have the freedom to use too feeds.

Maybe I’m biased here, but that’s all I wanted to do. I know a guy with a blown ‘07 engine, and I could get all the bits for cheap. The DIY op-amp would make it all work??!!

In theory, a $100-$200 total cost for an OE top feed swap would be pretty good….

[m sprank]

Problem is the CEL from non active valves. Cant turn off the cel anymore. Cant pass emissions in many states.  Side feed valves and sensors do not work on top feed and the wiring/electronic signal is different.  Discussion is based on how to get around that. Not deleting, making it work with no "tune"and no cel. 

[rhino6303]

I don't plan on making anything as I don't need to but someone can. This should allow the use of oem topfeed tgvs to function as intended on a sidefeed car.

I also didn't create the circuit. I did lots and lots of digging and found one to simulate to see that it does indeed give the correct voltages. 

[m sprank]

Its all just hypothetical discussion.  No one making or selling anything. 

[Tehnation]

I sorta need a solution, cause I can't find any tuners and the one I was gonna use efi, is all by the book now. So maybe I will contact iwire, wire is in the name of their company, they gotta have the means and know how, maybe they can produce something. I will share that ee diagram with them when I get home.

Otherwise I gotta start looking in other states, maybe pennsylvania 

[KZJonny]

Yeah. I follow all of that. I get that nobody is making or selling a thing, and the reasons for trying to design this op-amp etc...

As much as it might be a "replace engine" light, the CEL light is useful to me anyway, and has pointed me in the right direction a couple of times well before I had a problem. I wouldn't want to have it on all the time and lose the idiot light functionality.

Where I live I don't need cats, can have a CEL, and I unless I am selling the car, don't need to pass any kind of emissions testing. I am actually pretty sure even if I AM selling the car, it still doesn't need to pass an emissions test.

That said, I bought a catted DP when catless were still available (and much cheaper!) And I spend time and money on all my vehicles to make sure they run clean and have functional emisssions systems. Climate change is real, vehicles are a contributor to it and I personally wouldn't be able to enjoy motorsports knowing I was running catless etc..... (Not a political statement, or trying to ruffle feathers this is just how I feel about my cars.)

As the change from side to top feed has no impact on emissions, just that I can get a better selection of parts at lower prices, I do think it's a little silly that accomodations for that aren't being made by whoever.... But, I suppose it's a slippery slope, and if you guys have the EPA putting small shops under a magifying glass, I can see why you wouldn't want to tread there.

Since for me this is entirely permissible within the law (Ontario, Canada) I grateful for the discussion at hand.

[m sprank]

Off topic... Believe it or not the hi flow cat HELPS street cars.  I always recommended catted unless it was a pure track car.  The slight back pressure from the cat works in the tuners (and the cars) favor.  A well tuned car with a hi flow cat should run as clean or cleaner than stock and make peak boost slightly faster than catless. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by m sprank

[Tehnation]

I have the early model Cobb catted downpipe that's is 3" to oem. They are like that might not be enough.... everything sucks....

[m sprank]

I believe the line is "everything is f$cked, everybody sucks". 

[Tehnation]

People, including myself, have been waiting for like 4 or 5 years for my dyno results with my build, which is unconventional. I'm stage 3 cams on a bnr billet 20g with 1000cc injectors. My original goal was to just move the power curve to the right, where my peak power is at 7.5-8k+ versus 5-7k. I wanted to see if I could break 400awhp, or come at least close while having a high rpm.  I asked around about it, BC, Flatirons, and various other people in the industry. So I gotta produce some results! BC sold me a set direct for like 600 bucks no tax free shipping and has been sending me free cam replacements for several years now way past warranty cause they wanna know as well. Normally everyone runs bigger injectors and turbos, but I was like I want to see what a huge duration cam can do with a shit turbo, ie a non ball bearing garrett. So far it looks like it works but without dyno results to prove it, its all theory. Right when I see the finish line they move the shit back several miles. ....

[m sprank]

I understand.  But I cant change the world.  When young, I tried.  The man broke me down.  I have learned that I can not win and fighting hurts me more then them.  

 

I moved.  But, eventually they will catch up with me.    The next move is probably off-grid. 

[Tehnation]

Luckily for my state cels and visual inspections of cats are the only thing that can fail you. I thought my state was going crazy like the rest but in reality not really. EFI Logics is in Connecticut which is close to me like an 1-2 hrs depending on how you drive, but their state and or them being tuners brought down the hammer, so now they play by the book, which is still pretty functional, basically like you said about the hi eff cats they can run better than stock but they just have to do it while not triggering any cels which is easy cause its like u said more efficient. I have passed inspection for years with my tgv codes turned off, looks like california is still the only super hardcore place where cars are literally made differently from the rest of the country, its either a USDM car or a USDM CALI car.

..... so basically I just gotta go to a state that doesn't give a fck about CARB and get a tune..... which is actually a lot when I look at this map! 

So if only 17 out of 50 do carb, and to varying degrees because not everyone is as hardcore as cali.

hmmmm I think I might just have to take a road trip somewhere cause fck this! 

Actually I think we are being paranoid. I forgot about math, 17 out of 50 isn't much and look at the states that don't have it.... good luck taking their cars away let alone their guns lol. The entire south basically said fck you! 

It looks like all you have to do is find a red state 

[Pleides]

16 hours ago, Tehnation said:

Luckily for my state cels and visual inspections of cats are the only thing that can fail you. I thought my state was going crazy like the rest but in reality not really. EFI Logics is in Connecticut which is close to me like an 1-2 hrs depending on how you drive, but their state and or them being tuners brought down the hammer, so now they play by the book, which is still pretty functional, basically like you said about the hi eff cats they can run better than stock but they just have to do it while not triggering any cels which is easy cause its like u said more efficient. I have passed inspection for years with my tgv codes turned off, looks like california is still the only super hardcore place where cars are literally made differently from the rest of the country, its either a USDM car or a USDM CALI car.

..... so basically I just gotta go to a state that doesn't give a fck about CARB and get a tune..... which is actually a lot when I look at this map! 

So if only 17 out of 50 do carb, and to varying degrees because not everyone is as hardcore as cali.

hmmmm I think I might just have to take a road trip somewhere cause fck this! 

Actually I think we are being paranoid. I forgot about math, 17 out of 50 isn't much and look at the states that don't have it.... good luck taking their cars away let alone their guns lol. The entire south basically said fck you! 

It looks like all you have to do is find a red state 

Most new OEM cars are manufactured for stateside with California emissions standards and have been for 30 years or so. 

I'd think your best bet would be to avoid Cobb stuff as much as possible from here on out. My tuner exclusively tunes with Accessport software and has not been doing catless downpipes for years. They're in Portland and are doing fine. I think this particular aspect with topfeed conversions unfortunately affects a small enough group of people with older cars that it's kind of a nothing burger. You'll want to tune open source, that's my guess. Learn it yourself or find someone who will do it for ya and throw the receipt away.

[Enlight]

I just found these 04/05 WRX TGV's on eBay for a good price if anyone is needing to pick them up.

[m sprank]

Fairly decent price considering the other eBay offers. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by m sprank

[Tehnation]

So.... cobb is still on the table! I found a place to get my tune, not going to drop any information, cause its that serious these days, but it looks like as long as the shop didn't upgrade their software and use old versions they can still rock and roll! Cause now that I'm thinking about it my tune works with my cobb which has had firmware updated within the past year I believe, so as long as the tuner can use old cobb software,  ... screw this tgv noise lol

[Pleides]

18 hours ago, Tehnation said:

So.... cobb is still on the table! I found a place to get my tune, not going to drop any information, cause its that serious these days, but it looks like as long as the shop didn't upgrade their software and use old versions they can still rock and roll! Cause now that I'm thinking about it my tune works with my cobb which has had firmware updated within the past year I believe, so as long as the tuner can use old cobb software,  ... screw this tgv noise lol

The software requires being connected to the internet to work so I'm not sure how they did this, but congrats!

[KZJonny]

5 minutes ago, Pleides said:

The software requires being connected to the internet to work so I'm not sure how they did this, but congrats!

Is the (now-unavailable) home pro-tuning software *that* much different from the normal Accessport manager?

I turned off the auto-update on mine as soon as I head whispers of the coming changes to Cobb AP, so I am still able to connect to the internet while using the software, but it is all still pre Green Power updates.

Genuinely curious, since if I ever needed, I would drive to NY for a tune, it's not that far. And there would be no tracing work like that back across the border in a no-emissions testing province!

[Pleides]

42 minutes ago, KZJonny said:

Is the (now-unavailable) home pro-tuning software *that* much different from the normal Accessport manager?

I turned off the auto-update on mine as soon as I head whispers of the coming changes to Cobb AP, so I am still able to connect to the internet while using the software, but it is all still pre Green Power updates.

Genuinely curious, since if I ever needed, I would drive to NY for a tune, it's not that far. And there would be no tracing work like that back across the border in a no-emissions testing province!

Good question! I don't know the answer but hopefully someone here does.

[m sprank]

Got me on that one.

[Tehnation]

I was going to explain some things, but then I deleted what I was going to post... I'll just say they asked me the right questions and said the right things to get my attention, other than that lets see how it works out, they are booked solid for a bit so I'm looking at around April, cause I gotta schedule a day off, cause only weekdays and I work m-f. 

[socalsleeper]

I just read all of what was posted, that took a minute. But very informative bravo gents and ladies?

Coming into this 'fresh' it appears that there are only a few options each worst than the last. 

A) Mismatch top feed (3 pin) TGVs with the plastic manifold. The computer might be happy, nothing lines up exactly right, but hey you can use top feed injectors. This requires filling the center holes with weld or epoxy then drilling and tapping new faster holes.

B) Top feed (3 pin) TGVs and swap you manifold while your at it. Not the craziest option, but you will get nickel and dimmed to who knows what final amount. Its only money right... 

C) Run the (OME) side feeds, remove the flaps and leave the link bar to keep the ECU happy. You will need more expensive side feed injectors, but again its only money... FUK!!!

 C part II) Side feed (3 pin) housings but use side feed conversion adapters, however they leak sometimes. This is an option for top-feed injectors but not a great one. 

D) If you fear the man, leave the TGVs as is and run side feeds. Save yourself this one particular headache.

E) Try to run the (5 pin) TGVs try to engineer a some kind of electrical trickery (Arduino some other custom circuit maybe??) to convert the signals to the appropriate values given the position of the flaps. 

F) Last and most ridiculous option. Have someone model the TGV housings with the correct bolt pattern for the plastic manifold that also accepts the dual connector config. This has to also consider the bolt spacing for the top feed fuel rails. I have to look at the pics again to clarify this point, but this seems like a dead end anyways. Even if you can 3d print some prototypes machining the real deal is another thing altogether. 

 

I am trying to get my project going, yet again... I was all excited to get my Ebay top feed TGVs (which we mislabeled so FML), its a 5 pin. But this seems to be a waste unless I go the manifold route and get the right housings to start.