Double-V Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Where is Subaru going to get all the money for these grandiose plans? I tell you, I don't want to be a pessimist, but 95 percent of the "woulda shoulda coulda" talk will never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wukindada Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Agreed on the 07 M3 it will be a beast:eek: From everything I have heard it will be the quickest "production" car BMW has Avail! The M5 & M6 have posted times in the 4.2-4.5 sec range to 60. Hard to think of it being much quicker than that from the factory;) One can only hope they bring back the 4 door M3.....Me Likie:) Toyota 6EATS .........SUCK!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Where is Subaru going to get all the money for these grandiose plans? I tell you, I don't want to be a pessimist, but 95 percent of the "woulda shoulda coulda" talk will never happen. It is called risk. If you don't take any, you don't make any. ($) If they pony up the R&D money (since they aren't in the red, and toyota may be infusing a little cash for hybrid and manufacturing assistance) and build some cars that people want, and know about, they'll make their investment back. If they don't... Their recent lax profits will be the least of their worrys. In this business, you're either growin' or you're dyin'. There ain't no third direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon in CT Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Jon, people who actually work at SOA in Indiana made some comments too, so don't be so hasty in discounting the comments. They have indeed shared some interesting information. Doubt all you want - you'll be proven wrong soon enough. Sorry, should have said SIA.Nobody who works for SIA has ever posted in NASIOC that any model Subaru will have a turbo 6-cyl engine. There won't be any MY2007 Subaru model factory-equipped with a turbo 6-cyl engine. BTW, SIA and SOA are completely separate companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double-V Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 It is called risk. If you don't take any, you don't make any. ($) If they pony up the R&D money (since they aren't in the red, and toyota may be infusing a little cash for hybrid and manufacturing assistance) and build some cars that people want, and know about, they'll make their investment back. If they don't... Their recent lax profits will be the least of their worrys. In this business, you're either growin' or you're dyin'. There ain't no third direction. Yeah, but the flip side is that there are people who post that they should equip cars with xenon/nav/BBS wheels/helical diffs/400hp H6 mills/6 speeds/memory seats over 8 trim lines and 8 models, and don't realize how much it costs to do so. Subaru doesn't have the cash to do what people are dreaming about here, they simply don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camber Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Yeah, but the flip side is that there are people who post that they should equip cars with xenon/nav/BBS wheels/helical diffs/400hp H6 mills/6 speeds/memory seats over 8 trim lines and 8 models, and don't realize how much it costs to do so. With the exception of the R&D and fab costs for a new H6T engine all those things you metioned have already been developed and manufactured by Subaru or Subaru part suppliers and are offered and in production on the LGT in other parts of the world. Therefore, most of the "cash" has already been spent by Subaru on those particular items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Well if were talking about Subaru spending money on new engine technology, dont you think a good portion of it is goin into (or already went) their turbo hybrid engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aczwild Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Well if were talking about Subaru spending money on new engine technology, dont you think a good portion of it is goin into (or already went) their turbo hybrid engine?Yup supposedly we should see that engine in a Legacy sometime late next year/early 2008 JDM'd All to hell Thanks Jimmy @ Hkc-Speed.com! RIP Coxx & Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Well if were talking about Subaru spending money on new engine technology, dont you think a good portion of it is goin into (or already went) their turbo hybrid engine? This brings up a good point. How many R&D dollars have they already spent on the twin-turbo H6? They had a running prototype in the B11S in 2003, so they must have dumped a lot into it prior to that, plus any time they've invested in it since then. A mock-up would be a different story, but the B11S was a running, driveable prototype. The money's already spent, it's time for Subaru to bring it to market and earn back their investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Yeah, but the flip side is that there are people who post that they should equip cars with xenon/nav/BBS wheels/helical diffs/400hp H6 mills/6 speeds/memory seats over 8 trim lines and 8 models, and don't realize how much it costs to do so. Subaru doesn't have the cash to do what people are dreaming about here, they simply don't. Other people have made very good points here, but I would just like to add one. Since most of these things are not great expenditures, as they either have been developed, or are in production in other markets... How much money could subaru be LOSING in future sales and revenues by NOT bringing that stuff to market in the United States, and raising their marketshare and brand awareness? Giving customers what they want is hardly EVER less than a good idea in a capitalist free market. Businesses with laurels to rest on can do so, but no company ever grew by doing that. Other than some rally success, and a good reputation for reliability with those who know... Subaru has no such laurels on which to rest, and needs to press forward, or they will lose more than theoretical future revenue. Worthwhile risk is not easy to take, and SOA/FHI doesn't have to take all or any of my suggestions. but if they want more than the current cost-cutting, option cutting, trim line cutting policies, and revenue shortfalls that they have now, they can't just do nothing because they don't have the cash on hand. That is what corporate debt is about, and with wise management and decision making, it can pay off debt and increase revenues handsomely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 Havent heard of the ///M3 being the quickest BMW Production car ever but I like the idea and lets not get carried away with the potential of the V10 in the ///M5 and ///M6.... their run times to 60/100 are are 4.8 & 4.7 respectively. If a Subaru H6T can get anywhere near these times... well for mine, anything under 5 is well into the WOW factor. Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfd425 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Havent heard of the ///M3 being the quickest BMW Production car ever but I like the idea and lets not get carried away with the potential of the V10 in the ///M5 and ///M6.... their run times to 60/100 are are 4.8 & 4.7 respectively. I would hope the M3 will be considerably lighter than those cars, and therefore won't need as much power to outperform them. I'm surprised by those times; I would have thought that the V10 engine would have carried those cars to low 4-second times. If those are 0-100kph numbers, the extra two mph vs. 0-60 is probably worth a couple of tenths. If a Subaru H6T can get anywhere near these times... well for mine, anything under 5 is well into the WOW factor. Ada///M.The USDM Legacy GT has achieved times around ~5.2 to 60. With a stage 1 flash, it's probably close to 5.0. With WRX STi power, it could probably go under 5. So, if it were equipped with an H6 turbo, I would think 4.6 would be a reasonable target. Again, though, I'm talking about 0-60 times; you'd probably have to add two tenths for 0-100kph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 not sure if many of you guys remember the STi vs WRX-aftermarket shootout on Sports Compact Car magazine, but it was a good demonstration that our aftermarket counter-part is strong.. and of course, there are two things that a manufacturer company can do: A) design cars in the future that are not mod friendly and keep it's prestige by building a car that can out perform a "bolt-on" base car or B) embrace and get a better platform out there so that the aftermarket something more to play with and blow up, making the aftermarket field become the testing ground for trial and error for R&D.. dont think Subaru isnt watch a bunch of us power hungry freaks and keeping an eye on the rally/motorsports division to know what we are doing to the car.. it's less out of their pocket and easier for them to come up with something that works. Look at how many times they changed the Impreza body styling alone in the past 5 years. And with the rest of the market stepping up the technology and power, I am sure Subaru will keep up.. Look at what Perrin did with their H6-T swap on their STi and I am sure Subaru will look for some data from that car: http://www.supercars.net/cars/3278.html http://www.supercars.net/PicFetch?pic=2005_perrin_wrx_h6-2.jpg http://www.supercars.net/PicFetch?pic=2005_perrin_wrx_h6-1.jpg Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Yup supposedly we should see that engine in a Legacy sometime late next year/early 2008 See now is that coming in the Legacy? Or the vehicle that they debuted in Detroit. Honestly, I dont think that vehicle would apeal to Subaru enthusiasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 http://www.supercars.net/PicFetch?pic=2005_perrin_wrx_h6-2.jpg http://www.supercars.net/PicFetch?pic=2005_perrin_wrx_h6-1.jpg If subaru isn't going to drop an engine like that into a legacy, or is late to the market with it... I am calling perrin/crawford/whomever for a h6TT swap in a few years. Whaddya think that'd do to my powertrain warranty? :lol: I read the article in Sport Compact Car where they went a little deeper into that car. 550hp is their target. DAMN. A Legacy deserves to have that engine, or one like it... even a one-off tuner job, like the Perrin WRX STI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 Our current numbers here are close to the 300HP mark stock but still long way from S4 & ///M territory. I would just like to know what carrot they need to make this happen..... Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Pimp Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 What would you rather have - a direct injection twin scroll H4 or a turbo H6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 What would you rather have - a direct injection twin scroll H4 or a turbo H6? which ever has the bigger motor!!! Displacement = torque = more room for fuel and air = more power = FTW!!!!!! Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 We (Oz Spec) have the 2.0T Twin Scroll, amazing what a simple set up can do. Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 direct injection twin scroll H4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fzanetti Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 direct injection and twin scroll H4 or H6 twin turbo, whichever it does need to produce something in the range of 450/500 hp/torque. And from another thread about the new B5 hybrid concept: Subaru deliberately chose its least powerful JDM turbo engine to demonstrate the TPH system because it wanted to emphasize the electric motor aspect. Subaru could just as easily have used the 3.0L twin turbo engine from the B11S concept car. That engine was rated by Subaru as 294 kW (394 hp) @ 6400 RPM and 550 Nm (406 lb-ft) between 3600 and 4800 RPM. Toss in the 10 kW and 150 Nm supplied by the electric motor and the resulting TPH would be rated at 304 kW (408 hp) and 700 Nm (516 lb-ft). *That's more power than any M3 and more torque than any BMW M ever produced, including the current M5 and M6. Flavio Zanetti Boston, MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan42025 Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 304 kW (408 hp) and 700 Nm (516 lb-ft) in a legacy/liberty? Now we are talking. But of course power isn't everything. Still need better suspension/brake/steering systems than currently used to complete the package. Now I see why Subaru will have a very hard time to deliver - by the time all this is done plus more goodies (some essential) that are missing inside the car, the price will just about reach M3/S4/etc pricing but without the high standards of quality to match (meaning no squeaks, better interior materials, etc.). Oh well, I suppose I’ll have to resign to the fact I either have to buy an M3 or put up with my GT and think of the money I would have saved. It's actually a hard choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfd425 Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I think that with a turbo H6, an STi Legacy could blow the doors off of an S4, and approach the performance of the M3, for considerably less than the price of either of those cars. With a lighter-weight package, the Suby wouldn't need as much power as the others to outperform them, and even at $45K, it would be less expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 Twin Scroll DFI h4, or Turbo H6? Turbo H6. If subaru goes DFI, it will probably eventually go ALL DFI. Twin scroll would be good, but twin discreet parallel turbos is probably better. Especially if Porsche's variable geometry turbos get spread around a bit. (should be more heat durable than Chrysler's VNTs... although my mother has a so-equipped Lebaron GTC that is still running pretty well, even though it looks like it has sat outside for a decade... and it has.) Technology can be added to whichever engine block. Might as well add it to a larger base of displacement. Besides, who doesn't want a twin turbo flat 6, with a 6-speed manual or "manu-matic", and AWD. Front engined, or rear. Porsche or Subaru. Just that the Japanese car has two extra doors or even a wagon hatch, a bit more everyday utility, and could be sold for a third of the price with at least 3/4ths the power. The other is a world class, drop-dead gorgeous, also every-day driveable, 40-year evolution of a german sports car, 'nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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