Subaru H6 Twin Turbo MY06/07

[The B4]

I agree, If you are indeed correct and SOA plans on adding a performance version of the Tribecca a TT H6 would be the only current option to up the performance.

 

not necessarily...the STI's engine on the tribeca would be plenty.

 

single turbo onthe H6 would be plenty as well.

[andrew.anderson]

not necessarily...the STI's engine on the tribeca would be plenty.

 

single turbo onthe H6 would be plenty as well.

 

How well would the STi engine work though since the Tribeca does weigh over 4200 lbs. For a vehicle weighing that much wouldn't it place a significant amount of strain on the small H4 to pull around that much weight. Not that the H4 could not do it but if you are looking at engine life it would be a smart move to place a larger engine in which you would not have to be pushed as hard to get the same or similar performance thus increasing the engine life and realiability?

 

Is that not correct?

[rfd425]

How well would the STi engine work though since the Tribeca does weigh over 4200 lbs. For a vehicle weighing that much wouldn't it place a significant amount of strain on the small H4 to pull around that much weight. Not that the H4 could not do it but if you are looking at engine life it would be a smart move to place a larger engine in which you would not have to be pushed as hard to get the same or similar performance thus increasing the engine life and realiability?

 

Is that not correct?

I'd have to agree with Mr. A on this one. I think the STi engine would constantly be well into boost just in normal daily driving. There shouldn't be any packaging problems with the H6, so why not? A single turbo might be enough, but two smaller parallel turbos would probably make for better drivability.

[fzanetti]

I'd have to agree with Mr. A on this one. I think the STi engine would constantly be well into boost just in normal daily driving. There shouldn't be any packaging problems with the H6, so why not? A single turbo might be enough, but two smaller parallel turbos would probably make for better drivability.

 

Come on guys, 2 smaller turbos 9~12 psi could easily increase the horsepower from 250-350 or even more... What is SOA waiting?????

 

A more powerfull, bigger wheels, sporty suspension, more embracing seats and maybe some body small mods, they could easily sell it for 40~45K and beat the BMW X5 4.8i, Audi Q7, ML55 AMG, etc...

 

Doing a market analysis:

 

BMW X5 4.8is:

355hp V8

0-60 5.8 secs (Price ~72K)

 

ML55 AMG:

345hp V8

0-60 6.4 (last year of production 2003)

 

Mercedes G55 AMG

469hp supercharged V8

0-60 5.5 secs (but this vehicle costs more than 100K+)

 

Porsche:

Cayenne S:

340 hp V8

0-60 6.8 secs (Price ~57K)

 

Cayenne Turbo:

450 hp V8 Turbo

0-60 5.2 secs (Price ~92K)

 

And in the future:

 

Audi Q7 Hybrid

500 hp

0-60 under 6.5 (Price not less than 60K I guess)

 

So tell me guys!!!

 

What is SOA waiting??????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[SUBE555]

Guys, you have to think beyond the simple numbers and look at what is really involved here on a technical side of things. One can say it's very easy to incorporate these things, but it's not quite that easy. It's actually very easy to even design the components, piping, routings, I know I'm a mechanical designer, however, placing these components placed accurately to improve the CG of the vehicle with respect to the inertia of each component and their assemblys and even more importantly how each affects the tuning of the vehicle and therefore emissions and fuel economy (as all need to be taken into account) are very crucial factors. It's easy to say throw them in, even as an aftermarket vendor to do, but for an OEM it's very complicated and complex with heaps of paperwork and work to try and make the systems as cost effective shaving pennies here and dollars there.

 

So as much as you'd like to see one, I'm with ya'll, but realize it's easier to say than actually do.

[agctr]

I certainly agree with yr last statement that is for sure Seth. The complexities of getting a working model off the ground is a lot harder than it sounds. A dedicated project team would need to take much R&D expenditure to get a working model and this may take some period of time. BUT the advances and knowledge gained I believe would far out weigh the cost in both the short and long term.

Ada///M.

[SUBE555]

In my best estimations, it would take a team of about 4 proficient designers/engineers about 4 months to accurately design and detail a twin-turbo H6 setup, figure 8-16 weeks for prototype parts depending on availability, then testing and tuning, writing the software often seems to be a very long and tedious process, so from start to finish of such a project, I would gather something of 9-12 months at best case, including limited testing in various conditions like the test cars we've seen in Alaska, ya'll remember those pictures of the powertrain in a BE chassis Legacy?

 

Yes, Adam, it has to be proven that these advances will both save the mfg costs and will help increase sales. It's harder to prove these points worth over anything. A case must be made for every change, and that change is directly related to how the producer and it's shareholders will benefit.

[ChrisK]

Flavio, you're overlooking one simple fact: People won't pay $45K for a Subaru. Yes, I know many people HERE will, but we are a sliver of a minority.

 

Look at what has happened to Volkswagen with the Phaeton, and their attempt to move upscale in general. Why would someone buy a $50K Volkswagen when they could buy a $55K Mercedes? People buying cars in this price range are mainly out for "refinement" (read: brand identity), and $5K isn't going to help their lease payments enough to offset their loss of prestige from driving a mere Subaru.

[rfd425]

Flavio, you're overlooking one simple fact: People won't pay $45K for a Subaru. Yes, I know many people HERE will, but we are a sliver of a minority

They might not overnight, but the brand equity can be built up to the point where people would consider it as a value proposition to be able to buy a $40-45K M3 fighter.

 

Fifteen years ago, no one would have expected Toyota to be able to sell a car like the Avalon. And while the Phaeton might not be a huge seller, VW manages to sell plenty of $45K+ Touaregs, when the Mercedes M-class is available in the same price range.

 

The other factor is that many buyers of these so-called prestige brands are sick and tired of poor reliability. There are a lot of people who pay $40-50K for Audi A4/S4's which are basically the same size as the LGT, and those buyers should be an easy target market for Subaru. The LGT is the first step in taking a bite out of Audi's core market, and it appears to be working, judging by the number of former Audi owners on this board.

[riscy]

I agree...

 

Keep in mind that:

a) Subaru already sells a lot of fairly expensive cars to some fairly upscale clientelle

b) They've been on a market up-branding program for several years already -- and it's working (see a)

c) Subaru has nothing so mundane as the Beetle or Rabbit to overcome in their history (let alone their name being "peoples' car"!)

 

SoA sells plenty of >$30K cars in this country already and the leap to $40K - $45K would not take them into particularly rarified air. I admit they couldn't go much beoyond that at present, but they'd nee dto get a few models in that range to even try. A no-compromise $45K H6TT and a $40K LGT STi would start nicely -- and sell.

 

Often, the best way to convince people that something is exceptional is to price it accordingly -- in our society something expensive automatically becomes desirable/classy by its increased "worth" and "prestige" (see Hummer -- they'd be everywhere, for that exact reason, if gas was still $1.25/gal).

 

This hasn't worked for VolskWagon because the very people they're trying to sell to are those that remember them as cheap: Hey baby-boomer, remember that '62 Beetle dune buggy you drove? The Phaeton is just like that -- only shiny, and, um you'll look really important, so give me, say, $70K?"

 

Reasonable increments and plausibility are the keys! I think it could work (so that means it must ).

[SUBE555]

rfd425, you do make a compelling point there, particularly on the side of reliability. How many people have we seen around here that have had Audi A4's and S4's? A number. Why? Reliability appears to be a major reason.

 

Personally I think it would take quite a bit to prove that $40-45k is a viable price point for a Legacy STI, I do however think $35-40k however is a viable price point, right about the 37-38k well equipped being the focused point in my opinion. The reason I find it difficult is concerning it's given the 2.5GT's current content, the Spec B's and that of it's nearest competition the MS6 which includes more than both of the aforementioned models. A Legacy STI would however gain Brembo brakes and BBS wheels as well as probably a greater level of engine complexity, however I still don't see the viability of offering such a model for greater than $40k though I am surprised with the desire of the Spec B models which seem to be be getting soaked up rather quickly.

[The B4]

How well would the STi engine work though since the Tribeca does weigh over 4200 lbs. For a vehicle weighing that much wouldn't it place a significant amount of strain on the small H4 to pull around that much weight. Not that the H4 could not do it but if you are looking at engine life it would be a smart move to place a larger engine in which you would not have to be pushed as hard to get the same or similar performance thus increasing the engine life and realiability?

 

Is that not correct?

 

 

i don't think so at all

 

A tribeca weighs anywhere from 400-600 lbs more than an outback depending on model. The outback xt definitely has power to spare. The sti's drivetrain is more than ample to support the Tribeca if the gearing was made longer.

 

The Tribeca has no problem cruising...or normal acceleration. It just needs help when the pedal has to be mashed for whatever reason. H6 TT seems overboard in my opinion.

[ChrisK]

Look at why Subaru was successful with the STi: it is an affordable car that has outstanding performance. If the STi were in the same price range as the M3 or Corvette, people would be flocking to them instead of the STi.

 

I think Subaru has to follow the same model with an upmodel Legacy. Outstanding performance, built not with sports car margins, but sedan margins. If the Legacy STi cost the same as the S4, it would be a difficult decision. If it were priced at $35K (certainly doable with Subaru's current hardwre) it would be a great deal, a no-brainer, just like the WRX STi is over any number of >$30K cars at its performance level.

 

I agree that Subaru CAN build itself into an upscale brand, but they have to do so by offering quality for LESS than anybody else. Just like Lexus did when they started out. Nobody's going to buy a luxo Subaru for the same price as another luxury make.

[rfd425]

^^^I more or less agree, but I think they could go to $39K for a legitimate Legacy STi easily, and maybe even low $40's. You can't really get an M3 or S4 off the lot for under $50K anymore.

[Brady]

The story behind Volkswagen and not being able to build into a luxury brand is still reliability. Note that the Passat, for all intents and purposes their "flagship" vehicle (as the general public is unaware of the Phaeton's existance), is ranked among the worst cars sold in america in terms of reliability. I believe it was recently reported that soemthing like 73 out of 100 Passats were seen in the dealership for mechanical problems in the first 1 or 2 years of ownership! That is astounding.

 

Volkswagen is a marketing machine selling a lifestyle to the yuppie wannabe set. Look at their ads and you'll know who their customers are. You'll never see someone over 30 driving one of their cars in an ad. Furthermore, VW sells style and technogadgetry over safety and reliability (air conditioned glove box?). The closest they come to selling reliability is their "german engineered" tag-line they throw on everything, which, in recent years, we all have learned to be a real farce for cars from the German market (I'm looking at you Daimler and Audi!). Volkswagens are crap, and the people buying them admittedly aren't even comparing them to anything else ... they say they saw it in a commercial or a friend told them to get one, and they do.

 

Subaru on the other hand has a reputation built on reliability. And in recent years have received accolades for the performance they've infused in their vehicles. I don't think it's a huge leap to drive up the image of the brand to premium status much as Audi did. People might not pay $45,000 for a Subaru right now, but then again just 5 years ago, who would have thought that Subaru could command over $30,000 on a few of their cars. The L.L. Bean and VDC were viewed as way overpriced "for a Subaru." Now they seem to be priced in-line with some very popular models. Just something to consider.

[biturbowagon]

There are a lot of people who pay $40-50K for Audi A4/S4's which are basically the same size as the LGT, and those buyers should be an easy target market for Subaru. The LGT is the first step in taking a bite out of Audi's core market, and it appears to be working, judging by the number of former Audi owners on this board.

 

Actually, the LGT is closer in size to a VW Passat or Audi A6 than an A4/S4. I think you can figure out how I know.

 

Re former Audi owners: you make a good point.

[The B4]

Actually, the LGT is closer in size to a VW Passat or Audi A6 than an A4/S4. I think you can figure out how I know.

 

Re former Audi owners: you make a good point.

 

 

That is just simply not true...

 

The Legacy is close to the Passat size...that is only because the Passat is the MUCH closer to the size of an A4 than an A6

 

the Legacy is A4/Passat sized.

 

The A6 is 5 series/TL-RL/M35-45

[rfd425]

That is just simply not true...

 

The Legacy is close to the Passat size...that is only because the Passat is the MUCH closer to the size of an A4 than an A6

 

the Legacy is A4/Passat sized.

I gotta side with B4 on this one. There's something about the shape of the Passat that makes it look bigger than it is, but it really is about the same size as the B5 (1996-2001) A4. When I was considering Passats briefly to replace my '98 A4, I parked the A4 right next to a Passat, and I was surprised that the two cars were almost exactly the same size. That goes for both overall length and wheelbase. The A6, on the other hand, is a considerably bigger car.

 

As for the LGT, it does seem to have marginally more rear seat room than my old A4, but it is slightly smaller than the Accord that I park next to every day.

[mycl]

Speaking about Passat's ....

 

I saw an article talking about possible plans to build a VW Passat R GT.

 

Twin turbo 3.2 L V6, with AWD. 575 HP. Hint hint ... subaru

 

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/vw-passat-r-gt.htm

 

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-4.jpg

 

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-3.jpg

[fzanetti]

Thanks for sending that out Mycl!!!!!

 

Great article, and a definitely a WAKE UP SOA!!!!!!!

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[pdw]

I gotta side with B4 on this one. There's something about the shape of the Passat that makes it look bigger than it is, but it really is about the same size as the B5 (1996-2001) A4. When I was considering Passats briefly to replace my '98 A4, I parked the A4 right next to a Passat, and I was surprised that the two cars were almost exactly the same size. That goes for both overall length and wheelbase. The A6, on the other hand, is a considerably bigger car.

 

As for the LGT, it does seem to have marginally more rear seat room than my old A4, but it is slightly smaller than the Accord that I park next to every day.

 

You need to look at the specs. The B5 A4 has a wheelbase of 103", B5 Passat 106" and the A6 is 108". The B5 Passat has a lot more room in the back seat than a B5 A4. The '06 Passat has the exact same wheelbase as the B5 though, having sat in it, it does have more room inside.

 

I owned a '98 A4 and my wife still drives a '99 Passat. The rear seat in the LGT is significantly better than the A4's.

[pdw]

The story behind Volkswagen and not being able to build into a luxury brand is still reliability. Note that the Passat, for all intents and purposes their "flagship" vehicle (as the general public is unaware of the Phaeton's existance), is ranked among the worst cars sold in america in terms of reliability. I believe it was recently reported that soemthing like 73 out of 100 Passats were seen in the dealership for mechanical problems in the first 1 or 2 years of ownership! That is astounding.

 

Volkswagen is a marketing machine selling a lifestyle to the yuppie wannabe set. Look at their ads and you'll know who their customers are. You'll never see someone over 30 driving one of their cars in an ad. Furthermore, VW sells style and technogadgetry over safety and reliability (air conditioned glove box?). The closest they come to selling reliability is their "german engineered" tag-line they throw on everything, which, in recent years, we all have learned to be a real farce for cars from the German market (I'm looking at you Daimler and Audi!). Volkswagens are crap, and the people buying them admittedly aren't even comparing them to anything else ... they say they saw it in a commercial or a friend told them to get one, and they do.

 

Subaru on the other hand has a reputation built on reliability. And in recent years have received accolades for the performance they've infused in their vehicles. I don't think it's a huge leap to drive up the image of the brand to premium status much as Audi did. People might not pay $45,000 for a Subaru right now, but then again just 5 years ago, who would have thought that Subaru could command over $30,000 on a few of their cars. The L.L. Bean and VDC were viewed as way overpriced "for a Subaru." Now they seem to be priced in-line with some very popular models. Just something to consider.

 

Reliability has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's not like Mercedes reliability is any better than VW. The reason is their dealer network sucks and the market is just too crowded. The Phaeton competes directly with the A8 which competes directly with the 7-series and S-class. If VW was smart, they would keep their current position of trying to sell vehicles that are at a small premium over Hondas and Toyotas in terms of price and features. If they then get their reliability up, they'll be doing well.

 

BTW, I disagree on VW's safety. They may be unreliable but they're very safe and solid cars. VW and Audi are, IMO, the biggest automotive tragedy out there. The only thing wrong with them is their reliability (and more recently price) but that's so bad that I wouldn't buy one. From a design standpoint, they're great.

[The B4]

You need to look at the specs. The B5 A4 has a wheelbase of 103", B5 Passat 106" and the A6 is 108". The B5 Passat has a lot more room in the back seat than a B5 A4. The '06 Passat has the exact same wheelbase as the B5 though, having sat in it, it does have more room inside.

 

I owned a '98 A4 and my wife still drives a '99 Passat. The rear seat in the LGT is significantly better than the A4's.

 

 

I pulled up the RL, TL, 5 series, Legacy, A4, A6, and Passat in a side by side comparison before writing my post...

 

considering wheelbase, interior, and exterior dimensions...my ascertation was correct.

[andrew.anderson]

Speaking about Passat's ....

 

I saw an article talking about possible plans to build a VW Passat R GT.

 

Twin turbo 3.2 L V6, with AWD. 575 HP. Hint hint ... subaru

 

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/vw-passat-r-gt.htm

 

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-4.jpg

 

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-3.jpg

 

That is actually pretty cool. I don't particulary like VW's but from the article that car looks pretty nice.

[IwannaSportSedan]

575hp from 3.2 liters with 2 turbos? Holy schnikies! is that at 1.4 Bar? that is a lot of horsepower for that displacement, even with turbos.

 

375 I would expect. 475 would be exceptional, 575 is unbelieveable. Until the driveline breaks, that I'd believe.

 

Don't tell me, [psychic] it has a DSG transmission and Haldex AWD [/psychic]

 

Seriously, this should kick SOA and FHI in the patoot, and get a Legacy STi fast-tracked to production with an STI 3.0 or 3.6 TT flat 6, and REAL STI AWD. A real 6MT with the STI DCCD (at least fully auto VTD, if not driver selectable...) or a electro-hydraulic manual like DSG, SMG, or Ferrari F1, please.