SleeperScoob Posted September 24, 2016 Author Share Posted September 24, 2016 I'm back. Here we go. Now, Deatschwerks is shafting me. For the past two weeks, I have been trying to get a god damn replacement 850cc Side Feed Injector from DW, to no avail. I emailed them twice before getting a response, replied to that email the next day, waited around for 4-5 days for another reply, called their main office 3 separate times, and spoke with the receptionist or a recording more than I spoke with an actual tech. I never was able to get a hold of Chris @ DW, the only one authorized handle issues like this, the same guy I was conversing with over email. I left him two voicemails with all of my information, and even had James "leave a note on his desk". I never got a return call from anyone at Deatschwerks. Finally, after waiting around to get an answer out of them, they REFUSED to cover their rebuild service, and told me that they need the entire set of injectors in house to match one to the set, even though I provided them a picture of the flow sheet. They told me it may not even be possible to get just one replacement depending on the age of the injector, and I may end up having to purchase a brand new set. What do you think they'd tell me when they had my injectors? My guess is they'd force me to buy a new set. Today, I became fed up enough with all of this shit and just purchased a brand new set from Rally Sport Direct. At least they come with a 3 year warranty, not sure how honorable they are about that, but I am praying to the Subaru Gods that I never have an issue in the future. So, I bought used 850ccs for $250, had them rebuilt by DW with a flow sheet for $100, and have now purchased a brand new set for $600. I'm now $950 deep in injector costs, and have learned my lesson for the future. Leave your car stock. TL;DR: I had a horrible experience with Deatschwerks customer service, and have purchased a new set of injectors. I will be installing these on Tuesday, if all goes as planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldsoda Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Wow, this is another example of trouble I've heard recently about the DW injectors... one was a local guy who had issues with one of the 4 like you. He ended up going with Injector Dynamics (I also have a set of ID1000's) and smooth sailing from then on out. Hope your car is back up and running smooth very soon!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Jeez, I'd have gone too-feed at this point. Brand new Bosch top-feed injector over modded, used Denso side-feed every time. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFranchise Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Jeez, I'd have gone too-feed at this point. Brand new Bosch top-feed injector over modded, used Denso side-feed every time. Which Bosch top feeds? My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtea Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Yes, what is the best top feed conversion parts for the money? Planning 2017 1.5 xtr upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Either the Injector Dynamics or Deatschwerks items. Look for 'EV14' in the description. All these injectors are made by Bosch. For the 1.5XTR you'll need the DW750 or ID850 if using pump gas + meth. On straight pump gas go to the DW or ID1000. For E85 I'd choose the ID1300 or DW1300. I prefer the DW product for applications tuned with Opensource tools. ID's published injector parameters are only useful when using the Cobb AP. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperScoob Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 I wish I'd have gone with top feeds in the first place, at this point. Okay. Got the injectors, installed all four, then cylinder #3 was missing like crazy. It was like the injector wasn't plugged in. Long story short, I had to swap it with 3 different old injectors before it worked. I sprayed them out with a little bit of brake cleaner before installing to make sure they weren't gummed up. I even hooked them all up to a 9v battery to see if they were stuck, none were. This whole process ended up taking me two days. Am I an idiot? What did I do wrong upon installation? I have no idea why the injectors were all causing misfires until the 4th try, and only on cylinder #3. Anyway, got one in there that works, everything is running smooth again! FINALLY! I will be sending fresh logs out to Mike tonight or tomorrow so we can finally get to tuning this damn thing. Everything, hardware wise, seems to check out. I'll post an update when we get running on the tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Maybe the harness or the #3 plug is connecting intermittently or with high resistance? Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 2Fiver Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 intake is fine as others have stated. The inlet does degrade over time and would be a worthy upgrade. less turbulence post maf and pre-turbo is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperScoob Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 WOO BACK AGAIN!!! lol. Where do I even start... After Andrewtech installed the Innovate Wideband Gauge, it hadn't worked at all (readings were sporadic and all over the place) and they told me to contact Innovate because either the gauge or sensor is defective. I finally took a brief look in the manual and realized it had to be flippin' CALIBRATED, which is a 2 minute process that doesn't even involve taking anything apart. I can't believe they didn't do this. I calibrated the wideband last night, and lo and behold, we have a working and accurate wideband gauge!! Now. The narrowband O2 sensor (the one that shows on the Cobb AP) has been showing that the engine will randomly run super lean, usually only on the highway in 5th gear, and under this condition the A/F Correction will lock into +25.00, and the A/F will steadily creep from 14:1 up to 19:1 depending on how fast I catch it and let off the throttle. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but positive correction values are the ECU pulling fuel out, and negative correction values are the ECU adding fuel? So, this to me meant that the ECU was pulling fuel out for some incredibly weird reason, and causing the mixture to lean out. This also happens in high revs (5000+) under WOT. Don't bust that nut yet, this is where it gets interesting. After fixing the wideband, under these conditions, the gauge will read RICH while the narrowband O2 reads LEAN. During these conditions, I've been smelling something, which I now suspect to be burned mixed with unburned fuel. During these conditions, whether it be cruising or WOT @ 5000RPM+, the wideband will read in the 9:1 RANGE!! At this time, the narrowband will be reading 16:1, 17:1, 18:1... I assume simply because the stock O2 sensor is having a dilemma with how much fuel it's seeing. Now that I know that the car is running rich (I HOPE), and not lean, I feel at ease, and know I probably don't have a fueling issue... right? This must be a tuning issue, correct? Don't fret, I've checked EVERY possible spot for vacuum/boost leaks, with a boost leak tester. I made sure there are no air leaks, and my vacuum now ALWAYS stays above -10.0 psi. At this point I'm still sort of at a loss, this has cleared up some things in my mind, but has also raised new questions, mainly about how the narrowband O2 sensor operates. Hopefully now I can get this god damn car tuned and running right, it's been a damn long time coming, and a LOT of headache. Just wanted to provide you guys with an update, any feedback is greatly appreciated. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 I see you have a Cobb AP, I suggest you contact Mike Kinsman of www.tuningalliance.com and see what he thinks of your data log's. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuning Alliance Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 I see you have a Cobb AP, I suggest you contact Mike Kinsman of www.tuningalliance.com and see what he thinks of your data log's. Mike is tuning this car, I'm not up to date with the latest info on it however. -B Contact us for all your tuning and performance parts needs! Etuning the legacy community since 2008! Follow us on FACEBOOK | INSTAGRAM [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperScoob Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 Yes, Mike is currently tuning the car, but he hasn't filled me in on anything he's seen through the logs, or why it might be doing this. I've been going through the logs myself and observing and putting together pieces that I can on my own with my limited knowledge. We're currently on Revision 2, which I'll upload tonight, and see how it runs. I'll likely report back with how the car runs after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grovlet Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 OK - Really stupid question here? Ready? Did you check the wiring on the O2 Sensor? Did it somehow get rewired and it's backwards/have swapped wires for +/ground? What about the WideBand - is that wired up properly? I only ask this, as I had a car the some fool (prior to my ownership) did this to with a temperature sensor and the the car would literally shut down while driving down the highway or at speed.... Wouldn't you know when finally hooked up to a gauge - the temp sensor was outputting negative vs positive values and when running cooler it falsely made the ECU into think the car was overheating? So is this a similar condition and O2 is seeing wonky values and causing the ECU to throw a fit (or at least throw the tune into a strange state)? From what I know Mike is pretty adept at this stuff - so you're in good hands!! EDIT: I certainly understand your pain - my car was in/out of service for 8+ months with multiple engines/turbos - these cars seem to be hard to troubleshoot at times.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuning Alliance Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Yes, Mike is currently tuning the car, but he hasn't filled me in on anything he's seen through the logs, or why it might be doing this. I've been going through the logs myself and observing and putting together pieces that I can on my own with my limited knowledge. We're currently on Revision 2, which I'll upload tonight, and see how it runs. I'll likely report back with how the car runs after that. Yes we've only received one log sets, and on map 2. I'd suggest just log as soon as you can after receiving a new map. The quicker we get logs back, the quicker we can get the car running 100%. There are alot of tuners who actually dont even tune SideFeed injectors anymore because of issues, not sure if that's what causing yours but either way Mike will get it up and running! Like I said just try to send him back logs as soon as you can. -Brian Contact us for all your tuning and performance parts needs! Etuning the legacy community since 2008! Follow us on FACEBOOK | INSTAGRAM [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuning Alliance Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 I am following this, as I was looking to pick up some 850cc side feed injectors your comments have me second guessing that now. I would go with top feed conversions if you can, PM us we can help ya out. -Brian Contact us for all your tuning and performance parts needs! Etuning the legacy community since 2008! Follow us on FACEBOOK | INSTAGRAM [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merc6 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 I would go with top feed conversions if you can, PM us we can help ya out. -Brian I tried to google and I can't see the difference. What makes one side feed and one top feed? Is it mostly in the rails? 2005 Satin White Pearl Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Unlimited 5EAT (Project Car) 2019 Agate Black Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (DD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmaresmk Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 The way the fuel goes in. top feeds are more plentiful and easier to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 The way the fuel goes in. top feeds are more plentiful and easier to get. Most importantly you can buy brand new Bosch top-feed injectors all the way up to 2000cc that are of better design and quality than the stock Denso stuff. The bigger side-feeds are made out of used, stock Denso injectors modified to flow more. Largest factory side-feed injector is merely 520cc. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustCallMeNick Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 OH MY GOD sigh. I've been planning to upgrade to vf52 but this thread makes me want to cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holla Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Well, stay on stock fueling then. After 5 years, 50k miles on my vf-52 with stock fueling and TA pro tune, I have not had any of these issues. I sometimes think I want to upgrade the injectors, and then I read threads like these... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Well, stay on stock fueling then. After 5 years, 50k miles on my vf-52 with stock fueling and TA pro tune, I have not had any of these issues. I sometimes think I want to upgrade the injectors, and then I read threads like these... Have to agree, my vf52 has about 95,000 miles on Mikes tune with stock fueling. Very fun car to drive. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holla Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Thanks Max, I followed your build thread to a tee. My car has been dead nuts relieable. I'm a believer, haha!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbide15 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 So, after much lurking and researching, I finally sold my 15 Legacy in exchange for (hold yourcomments,please)...an 05 Outback XT Limited 5 MT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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