Turbo recommendation for ~450 wtq? Stock location...

[jcole05]

Hoping to get some insight into the best way to go. I am a self-confessed torque junky and now, like many of us here, have a legacy GT with >$30,000 in upgrades.

 

I won't name them all but let's suffice to say I have almost everything one might consider including a complete engine build; the main exceptions to this are than I am still IWG, I have a TMIC upgrade and not an FMIC and I haven't yet done a six speed swap (mine is an '05 LGT MT).

 

So...after I put a tomioka GT28/TD-05 hybrid in to my E85 car, I was at ~370whp and ~360wtq on a Dyno Dynamics before I build the motor. Shop told me I still had about 75 of each left in the turbo if I built motor based upon their conservative tube but > 12K later, the end result was not as fantastic (25 whp and a piddly 20wtq).

 

I hate to have to redo all of what I have done based upon what was recommended to me, so I would ideally like a stock fitment turbo which can get me to my goals, which are

 

1) Well over 400wtq with 450wtq being nice.

2) Best possible spool up time for this torque level as this is my DD and I want boost as soon as possible if I am cruising on the interstate at 3000rpm and punch it.

3) I KNOW that accomplishing #1 and #2 above requires trade-offs. But I am asking, begging, etc. for knowledgeable folks on here to comment about their go-to turbo for these basic desires.

 

Thanks.

 

PS - I am willing to spend $$ to go twin scroll BW, rotated, you name it. But again, my main question is for a stock location using the piping I already have.

 

 

OKAY, TO HELP ORGANIZE DIFFERENT THE RESULTS OF THE DIFFERENT TURBOS BEING TUNED, I WILL TRY TO KEEP THIS FIRST POST UPDATED.

All of these plots are at 26psi max...will eventually have 21psi maps too once all is said and done.

 

First plots: Blouch Dom2.5xt-r with 10cm hotside. Boost and AFR to come.

 

 

 

Next plots: Blouch Dom1.5xt-r with 8cm hotside.

 

 

 

 

 

Mod list (many non-power/spool related items left off):

 

Six speed STI swap

Exogated UP

Turbosmart 45mm EWG

Catted (high-flow) CNT DP

COBB CBE with midpipe resonator

Tomei UEL header

FMIC (forget brand…went with shop recommendation)

TGV deletes

Grimmspeed EBCS

Cobb Accessport

DW300 pump with secondary booster

ID1200 injectors

Tomioka FPR

Tomioka AOS

AEM CAI

CP 100mm forged pistons at 9.0:1 CR

Manley H beam rods, ACL rod bearings

Ported and polished heads

Manley +1mm valves

GSC Sti S1 cams 268/266

ARP head studs

Gates timing belt w water pump

Sti 11mm oil pump

LIC adjustable timing belt

NGK one step colder plugs

Killer B Oil pan

Group N mounts

Koyo Radiator

Thermal zero turbo blanket and uppipe blanket

 

Turbo to be determined!

[xtea]

Dom 1.5 or 2.5 with killer b header on e85.

 

If you are open to twin scroll more option are available to you.

 

You can get what you want it just depends how much you want to spend. Killer b has the spoolinator which is intriguing.

[jcole05]

Shop mentioned the Tomei ARMS M8265 but I don't have a lot of experience with this brand. Having the Tomioka GT28 version, I am much more familiar with Garrett ball bearing turbos than Tomei journal bearing types. And I have been intrigued by Borg Warner.

 

But thanks...the Dom 2.5 and E85 might get me where I need to be.

[joeleodee]

I would also consider the Blouch 20gXTR on E85. I've seen 450whp and 450wtq easy on that with low 3krpm spool with the right setup and tune.

 

For this kind of power goal, I would go with that. If I could do it again, this is what I would have gotten.

[sjxbrd]

Have you considered EFR 6758 or 7163? They should easily hit your goals while remaining stock location. The killer b spoolinator kit is very nice too, also stock location.

[jcole05]

Sjxbrd - very interested in those turbos but I was thinking that I'd need to buy piping to go along with the EFR models. My issue is that the shop at which I did a ~20K build is willing to work with me on the Tomioka turbo because it is not holding adequate boost and will buy it back at just below my cost.

 

However, since my Perrin ELH had a minor leak during my build, I've also just replaced them with new headers (UEL was recommended, though from reading here I am not certain why...the shop has lots of experience so I trusted them).

 

So...I am having trouble swallowing buying new headers only a few months after paying for different new headers so recently.

 

It sucks to be in >50K for this car and not be where I want to be. I can look at it like, I'm in it this much already so just pay up and get it right, or I can ask myself if I really want to throw good money after bad. So far, engine build has been the biggest $ mistake I've ever made.

 

Thanks for the thought though and please correct me if I am wrong about fitment for the EFRs.

[joeleodee]

Yes iirc, the EFR turbos may be stock location, but requires specific uppipe and downpipe.

 

That being said, your shop was wrong to recommend the UEL header above the EL. In the way you're talking, I don't think you want to admit that you're not happy with this shop. $30k is a lot of money for being under 400whp.

 

I'd strongly consider you stop using their services.

[sjxbrd]

It sucks that you have put a lot of money into the build, and you are still not happy with the results. I would be curious to see what exactly has been done to the car. I was expecting to see a rotated or EFR setup considering the $ amount.

 

EFR turbo's will require full race or custom up pipe and down pipe. The killer b spoolinator setup will need special up pipe and down pipe as well. Results from both setups look promising. If you really want to keep your stock location up pipe and down pipe, I would consider something like 1.5XTR, 3" inlet, ELH, and meth injection. And probably a different shop...

 

Regarding the shop you've been using and the Tomioka turbos. Those turbos are hybrid turbo's anyways, which will bottleneck the turbo's performance. Let's say you have some leftover stuffing in the pantry/fridge that you thought was just OK but didn't quite fall in love with, would you buy another turkey just so that you could use those stuffing? I would sell the current Tomioka turbo for whatever it's worth, and get a name brand turbo with some real quality and R&D.

[west_minist]

If you can afford it (which is seems. Things should be done sensibly though) I would recommend the EFR-6768 w/ EWG, since you are looking for Tq monster. Otherwise the EFR 7163 is a good balance.

 

I would do a custom cam setup like from GSC to maximised TQ.

 

Your best option is to call up Full-Race.com and chat with them on your needs.

[cryo]

Yep EFR is the way to go if budget is not an issue. Honestly they are expensive for a reason though. Amazing results

 

Dave

[fahr_side]

450wtq is quite a target. I'd be looking at high CR, E85, cams and an EFR7163 for that. Add proper head studs too, because you will have to run higher boost. You can do this on a TMIC but note you'll be very much limited at higher revs. I'd go FMIC to balance the build out. Rotated makes a lot more sense at this point.

[jcole05]

fahr-side: excellent questions and the responses are check, check, check and good suggestion. And then next sentence check.

 

Definitely keeping FMIC in mind. I don't have much issue with heat soak but still a good point.

 

For those being hard on the shop, 30K is what I have in it since I bought it. Lots of intermediate steps, new clutches, etc. on the way. Even sprank has like $5K of that for a prior build. The shop is top notch. Very good reputation. I think I haven't always been exactly sure what I want. Their only mistake was suggesting my turbo could approach 450wtq with the right parts and a big boost spike.

[rebourne]

Not above, just a question: Have you done anything to strengthen the 5mt in preparation for well above 400 ft lbs?

[jcole05]

Yeah lol - I got a 6MT sourced yesterday!

[Rhitter]

Take a look at this thread for reliable 400+

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/oldskoolbikers-08-outback-xt-cosworth-efr-7153-build-241476.html

 

I think you need to step back and figure out what you actually want from your build and plan for that. Right now it seems like you are incrementally trying to make it better but sticking with what you already have. Looks, like that's just costing you money and returning disappointment.

[jcole05]

Fair point OB2.5XT. Admittedly, I have relied a lot upon input from others who may or may not have understood my ultimate goal and the way I like to drive.

 

For many years I had a 16g on E85 with about 360-370wtq (airboy) and maybe 330-340whp.

 

Once I realized I wanted more, a local shop recommended the Tomioka turbo and an intake; at that point I already had a lot of upgrades but it was money well spent to me.

 

My real responsibility in the matter is in not realizing that even my 16g was basically maxing out my stock block. I should have read around and known better. So after the Tomioka went in, I basically had a MUCH laggier version of my old car for several K invested without much more power and with a slight LOSS of torque (confirmed by airboy to airboy comparison with my 16g).

 

Then, it was the opinion of the shop that, because they kept me to only 18psi and left off 2-4 degrees of timing, that a built engine with all the goodies would get me to the 425-450 range for wtq and whp with that Tomioka turbo. That unfortunately didn't happen.

 

So yes, I now have a bit haphazardly spent enough money to have my power goals met without doing it in an organized way to be sure it actually happened. I would say that I share a good bit of the culpability although I wish I had gotten slightly better information from those I was paying to do the work.

 

I am fortunate to have a decent job and since the car is an '05 I still have gotten 10 years for less total $ than a BMW 5 series, etc. However, I am very willing to spend that last few thousand to get everything *just* right. Thanks again for your thoughts.

[joeleodee]

In thinking about the EFR turbo options for you. I think you'd be happy. You can recoup a little funds from the sale of your existing downpipe and uppipe so that's good. You may have to thing about your intercooler situation as I don't know how those turbos mate to the intercooler.

 

My buddy is in the process of tuning an EFR setup on his STI, but he's not letting it loose yet because he's breaking his engine in. I'm interested in seeing what it's capable of. Keep us posted and keep your head up.

[jcole05]

Well - here's the deal as of today. The shop I'm working with is trying to assist me in getting where I want to be. Since I had discussed my power goals with them ad nauseum before they did my engine build, I am happy they are IMO being fair in trying to stand by their work and recommendations.

 

Bottom line is that they are going to swap several turbos into my car and then tune each. The price per turbo is VERY fair in my opinion.

 

I think they both legitimately want to make me happy, while also seeing this as a good opportunity to potentially learn a lot by testing the exact same car with (at this point) 4 different turbos. If people here are curious, I am very willing to post results along with detailed specs regarding all of the goodies which have become part of my Leggy over the last 10 years.

 

Right now, they have ordered a FP HTA71, a Tomei ARMS M8265, a Steamspeed STX 71-R and a replacement Tomioka GT28/TD05 (they have concerns that the initial Tomioka may be defective based upon its performance...we shall see).

 

I am very curious about the results and I think based upon what they have told me they will charge for each turbo to be swapped in and tuned, it is very much a win-win.

[jcole05]

One last thing - I very much appreciate everyone's prior input and I am in NO way excluding the possibility of going with a Blouch, changing gears to EFR, etc.

 

It's just that the job that puts $ into MY bank account is a pretty far cry from automobile performance. So at this point I've decided to continue letting this particular shop take the lead since they have experience building ~1000 motors, most of which have been subarus.

 

I am not completely certain why they picked these 4 turbos in particular to start with. However, for the small cost to me to install and tune, I am happy getting the data. If none of the 4 leads to an optimal result, we will make a new plan.

[joeleodee]

Interesting proposal. What are they going to do with the 3 turbos that you don't choose? Also, are they charging you for 4 turbo swap/tunes....or just 1 turbo swap/tune? I wouldn't allow charges beyond what 1 turbo swap and tune would regularly cost. After all, as you said, it's helping them establish expected results for 4 different setups.

 

Nevertheless, definitely interested in seeing the results. Perhaps if they allow, get some good, clean road datalogs from each setup and see how they compare.

[rebourne]

Pick the best of four turbos, each tuned on your car? That's literally a dream come true scenario!

[jcole05]

Joe - really not sure although I know for example that Steamspeed has wanted them to try out one of their newer snails like the ball bearing model we're testing, so maybe they've worked a deal out. The tomioka is a warranty replacement. Not sure about the others.

 

Their charge is sufficiently below 'list' for a turbo swap and dyno tune that I'm comfortable paying x 4 as, while they get information to help steer future customers, I get that ideal situation of seeing at least 4 dyno plots and choosing what I like the best.

 

Like I've said, I've dropped some coin there but I see how this benefits us both. Kind of would like one more ball bearing like say a Blouch to compare as well, but we shall see.

[LatentWagen]

All else being equal, a larger turbo will get you more horsepower, not more torque. Simply put, if you want more torque, you need more displacement, more boost, or higher octane fuel. As you found out, a 16g and a 20g will make the same torque at the same boost... but the 20g makes that torque at a higher RPM, hence, higher HP.

 

So, try all the turbos you want (seriously, that is an awesome test and tune you have planned!), but the solution is bigger boost, not bigger snail. Of course, some turbos are happier at higher pressure ratios than others. Think Garret for big boost, instead of IHI. I bet a little GT-28 would deliver 450 foot-pounds, if you push it hard enough. Those EFRs are really nice, too, but can be spendy!

[tocinoman25]

Id be interested to see that steamspeed baller bearing...no doubt that tomioka should do the job...i like where this is going...good luck with your project...ill get a built shortblock soon and push my stx71 more or change to a different snail...not sure yet...cant wait to see your plots

[rebourne]

Somebody loan this guy a 1.5xtr stat!