fahr_side Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Just for reference, we are at 370lbft on a 5EAT 5th gen with an EFR7163 and meth, holding it down to around 20psi and moderate timing to spare the trans. I'm sure it would do 400 if we just let 'er eat. I love the early spool and response from the EFR units. My own 1.5XTR now does 390lbs at 21psi on meth, and will do more once I get to finish up the tune. To be sure to be closer to the 450 mark I think you'd want to go to a full-sized GT30R like a 2.5XTR at least or a rotated set-up for slightly better spool and more top-end. Sent from a device using some software. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcole05 Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 How does a relative ignoramus like me determine if a turbo is a 'hybrid' or not? With the exception of a turbo that announces it in the title, say the Tomioka which clearly is a Garrett GT28 ball bearing CHRA with a custom Tomioka billet compressor wheel (their attempt I assume to make a Garrett GTX2871 equivalent) and a Mitsubishi TD05 housing, I don't understand how to determine this. I can see the concern from assuming a hybrid pairing between CHRA and housing can lead to poor outcomes. Am I to assume that unless a turbo announced itself as a hybrid, it is NOT one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 No, lots of combinations are hybrids simply because the original manufacturer never put the parts together that way. For example, if you look at the lists from Mitsubishi, the largest compressor they themselves fit to a TD05H frame is a 16G. The smallest frame an 18G is fitted to is the TD06. Therefore all TD05H-18G or 20G turbos are by definition hybrids. This is not to say this is a bad practice, but these things need to be critically matched to the application and what you're willing to trade off. For example a TD05H-20G may work well on an EJ207 which revs pretty high and has lower swept volume. On an EJ25* you will find that drive pressures (EGBP) spike at higher revs and that restricted exhaust flow offsets much of the gain from running the larger compressor. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmaresmk Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Interested in results. i was thinking about the gt-28 for my next step i love my Tomioka billet 18g. 335/377 ELH helps with torque. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcole05 Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 Yeah Nighmare. In the past I had really sung the praises of the Tomioka here as I was at 370 whp on a very conservative map. However, either due to a fault in my particular one or an issue with them in general, I was well short of 380 wtq (shop expected up to 450) and was barely at 400 whp. This despite the fact that at 370 whp I had a non-built engine. So over $10,000 later I was disappointed. Very interested in the final results here. Shop predicts the FP will be the best. I am going on a limb and hoping the steam speed beats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkinslow Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 in for results. Good luck with the testing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcole05 Posted January 12, 2016 Author Share Posted January 12, 2016 Update - FMIC done and 6 speed tranny in; however, had to choose between buying a new spec B drive shaft and having a carbon fiber one made. Am doing the latter but this will delay things a bit. However, for those in for results, have added the dominator 2.5xtr to the list. So we will have 5 turbos on E85 with the same car otherwise. I for one am very looking forward to seeing the results. Will certainly post once available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatentWagen Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Congrats man! CF sounds fancy, how much weight savings from that one? Our drive shafts are heavy! So we will have 5 turbos on E85 with the same car otherwise. I for one am very looking forward to seeing the results. Will certainly post once available Data goldmine! Can't wait to see the spread between all these turbos on the same car. LW's spec. B / YT / IG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 I know it's been mentioned before and I don't know if you have or will change this out... An UEL header will leave at least 20 of your precious ponies on the table. In order to compensate for that loss you will need a larger turbo, which means more lag. Sent from a device using some software. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcole05 Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 Hey fahr. I know man. As I'm pretty sure I posted above, I had Perrin ELHs on the car-actually used from Mike Sprank who did my initial 16g build. He also put in some very nice in cubbyhole gauges etc. etc. However, during my most recent build with the Tomioka, an aftermarket UEL was what the shop recommended. They had so much experience and knew what my goals were (more wtq oriented than whp). So the bottom line is I went with their recommendation although I myself did not understand it based upon my reading here on the forums. Just BTW I needed to do something in terms of headers at that time because my Perrin ELH had finally developed an exhaust leak. So now I would be eating the cost of switching back. It has kind of been tormenting me ever since because I am one who likes to maximize things and you are certainly not the first to say that an ELH smooths out inefficiency inherent in the Subaru UEL design. Aargh.....I think I just can't stand the thought of spending the extra $ and will have to deal. For what it's worth, the shop still stands by their recommendation based on their experience tuning Subarus. I don't know exactly what that means in terms of the way they tune, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcole05 Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 Hi Latent. Not sure exactly but I am told the CF version they are going to have made will weigh just under 15 lbs. Stock is just under 30. So nothing huge but every bit counts. Reportedly the light weight shaft helps a bit while you are building rpms - not unlike a lighter flywheel I suppose? It's kind of a luxury that I wouldn't be pursuing if I didn't need to do something. But it should be kind of a cool feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeleodee Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 While your UEL has only limited use, now is the time to change it out. Get some good money out of it reselling and go for the equal length. I've talked with those more experienced than myself here and they all agree that is best for power. I don't think you'll regret it. In my situation, I only have the stock manifolds ported with a crosspipe. I've seen a smaller 20g make 450 whp, more than my bigger turbo. Comparing data, that's the only major difference that could have been a factor in the output. That being said, right now I can't justify the price of the header for another 30-40 whp. When I go built motor, that's the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Hey fahr. I know man. .... an aftermarket UEL was what the shop recommended. .... I went with their recommendation although I myself did not understand it .... So now I would be eating the cost of switching back. ... I think I just can't stand the thought of spending the extra $ and will have to deal.... I feel ya bro. I hear a version of this just about every day from some poor victim of shops pushing outdated, incomplete or incorrect thinking. I wouldn't mind so much but there's so much evidence to show EL headers outspooling and outperforming the UELs in both power and torque. No excuse for ignorance like this from your shop. While your UEL has only limited use, now is the time to change it out. Get some good money out of it reselling and go for the equal length. ^^ This. There will always be some flat-bill-cap-wearing knuckle-dragger out there looking for 'teh Scoobie rumbel mang'. I've seen a smaller 20g make 450 whp, more than my bigger turbo. lolwut? On which dyno? I've never seen a 20G do over about 340whp on the dyno (Dynapack etc.) or perhaps a little bit more on race gas. If you are seeing 450whp those are toy ponies, not real horses! Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeleodee Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 lolwut? On which dyno? I've never seen a 20G do over about 340whp on the dyno (Dynapack etc.) or perhaps a little bit more on race gas. If you are seeing 450whp those are toy ponies, not real horses! Sorry, meant Blouch 20gxtr on E85. Comparing since I'm on e85. Better than just a 20g, but still a little smaller than my turbo. 444whp here (I didn't see what dyno) 462whp here http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2389720 Built motor(running more boost) with stock heads, stock catback and manifold. VD dynojet setting backed up by real dynojet (tes, higher reading dyno). Reading up on xluben's build, you'll find the airboy graph (lower than VD dynojet) with EL header was at 445whp (compared to 482 VD dynojet). This is what I found initially online, but I have a friend who's tuned this turbo to similar numbers. Back on topic, xluben's setup in these examples (he's gone well beyond this now) is the reason I recommended the Blouch 20g XTR initially in this thread. You can run high boost with your built engine and have great power under the curve to work with. Nevertheless, having a list of 5 turbos to play with at the shop's expense, mainly, is a great position to be in. Looking forward to this. :grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 I also looked at the 20GXTR but decided that for the little extra money it cost, the 1.5XTR was a better deal. No regrets here. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeleodee Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 And I didn't look into the 1.5XTR until recently and for this power range, it would definitely be on the short list of consideration. Do you have the 8 or the 10cm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 And I didn't look into the 1.5XTR until recently and for this power range, it would definitely be on the short list of consideration. Do you have the 8 or the 10cm? I bought it with the 8cm2 housing for earliest possible peak torque / best response, and the 2.4" intake for easier install. I'm not interested too much in peak power numbers and care much more about response and torque for pass road type driving. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcole05 Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 Had a very difficult time deciding between using the dominator 2.5xt-r and the 1.5xt-r because my driving style and desire is very much what fahr_side has described. There's a reason the thread title talks about wtq and not whp. We will see. FWIW - I spent a long time last night looking for comparison dyno plots of aftermarket UEL versus ELH. Very difficult to find. One which comes from Tomei (who makes both types and is the kind of UEL the shop put on) shows both having an improvement over stock which is pretty similar. As expected the ELH is better up top but both a lot better than stock. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1585037 This link has their plots. Now 1) the company certainly has a vested interest in making their UEL not look terrible and 2) they don't give any other information about the specific set up that I could find. However this is at least one head-to-head comparison which doesn't make the UEL look terrible.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcole05 Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 BTW - not defending what is in my car but trying to justify not spending the cash to reverse it. Particularly as I have developed a pretty good long-term relationship with this shop and I only want to question their decision if I have clear data on my side. Like I said, they tell me they have tried both types and felt that the UEL was what I needed given my goals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Don't worry, I get your point completely. I get a little frustrated working on cars that have mismatched parts galore that the owner won't ditch 'because I already bought it'. Nothing to do with you at all. I'm not looking to criticize your decision-making, just point you in a better direction. Sent from a device using some software. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcole05 Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 I hear you. As I am sure you appreciate from your own line of work, it can get messy when a customer comes in to say 'well I might not know much myself but lots of folks on the internet are telling me..." Despite the fact that you are obviously very knowledgeable, I'm glad you see my perspective. At the end of the day, there are only two main Subaru performance shops in my area and this one is much closer to home. I've dropped some cash with them so I want to preserve the relationship (and I appreciate very much this turbo tune-off they have proposed). You know how it goes....I'm sure you'd feel the same way if some knucklehead questioned your experience because of an internet board. Finally, I think if I remember way back to the early days of this thread, you were positive on the 2.5xt-r as a way to reach my goals if I didn't go the EFR route. Any thoughts on the 1.5xt-r versus the 2.5xt-r? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 I really want to help you, so the flattery is unnecessary I'd get a ride in something with the (very popular) 1.5XTR on corn and see if it's enough for you. It's enough for the pass roads IMO, but everyone defines 'enough' on his own terms eh? Note a 2.5XTR on your UELH may only offer the top-end of the 1.5 on an ELH. Yes it makes that much different. Sent from a device using some software. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebourne Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 For a smaller turbo is the elh still the hot ticket? Something like a vf52 or 18g. And from a bang for the buck angle, with a $2k budget you can acquire a 52 or 18g and an elh, versus, say spending the whole budget on a turbo. Since I'm clearly talking about me, stock location turbo through a AVO tmic. Versus going with a larger stock location turbo? pic thread build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Yes. I was very skeptical because with UELs I'd only seen added lag on the smaller turbos. A friend convinced me to try an ELH with the BNR16G I was using then, and I got 20whp more at peak, with more in the midrange, and about 20 more torques, with no changes in my tune. Almost a religious experience right there. Sent from a device using some software. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebourne Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Almost a religious experience right there. I think I've seen the light! And my stupid username makes sense again. Consider my turbo research reborn. Turbo + elh, that is. pic thread build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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