MTBwrench's 2005 OBXT Build! #DDRaceWagon

[MTBwrench]

I got the UR specifically because I wanted flappy. Curious how those do in the snow. The stock ones annoyed me because snow would build up and not fall off. I am hoping the flappy knocks the snow loose.

 

You bring up a good point, I'll bet these are stiff enough to pack up with snow over the winter. That's never really bothered me though, I just chip it off when I get home. Honestly, I usually have more problems with snow in the wheel wells than on I did on my OEM mud guards.

 

I noticed on my old impreza with the rigid style rally armour flaps that I had a visible amount of protection from the sand on the road. And the snow would build up a little on them but it never bothered me that much. I think the flappy ones would have just angled back and protected a smaller area. I don't think know the JDM spats I have on my Wagon don't provide any protection but they do look good [emoji38]

 

That's precisely why I got the rigid flaps as well, it seems like the RA ones just flop out of the way. I've also seen people back into snow banks, have the flap move forward and grip the wheel, and then rip off. The JDM spats are oh-so-sexy, I will give you that.

 

I like those. But then the hacker in me wants to mess with them...

 

Black out the R, for:

GO ILLA

 

Black out the O into an apostrophe for:

G'RILLA

 

literally cross out the R and scribble a Z above it:

GO ZILLA

 

GO ZIRA

 

might even be able to make O'RILIE?

 

But all that is more effort than i got time for.

 

Holy tangent, Batman! Is it bad that I read "GO ZIRA" and immediately imagined an the City Wok guy from south park saying "Godzilla"?

 

On a more relevant note... I'm currently in contact with Underdog regarding suspension choices.

[Flinkly]

On a more relevant note... I'm currently in contact with Underdog regarding suspension choices.

 

JDM (Billstein) yo.

[Rhitter]

 

On a more relevant note... I'm currently in contact with Underdog regarding suspension choices.

 

What are your front runners?

 

Are you going race wagon? Or staying high (it is Colorado after all)?

[magnusonsubie]

Are you going race wagon? Or staying high (it is Colorado after all)?

 

I thought he was in Illinois

[Rhitter]

I thought he was in Illinois

 

hmmm - no idea why I thought Colorado....

[Flinkly]

hmmm - no idea why I thought Colorado....

 

B_holm does also have a red wagon, and now lives in Colorado...

and there's NYX who lives there, but his is an 07+ and blue...

 

i'm not sure either.

 

Interested in the new suspension info. JDM Billstein? we can split shipping of parts accross the pond! i also might be going over there again in 2016, and can easily bring back an extra checked bag. just have a box delivered to the Japan office and i'll pick it up on my way through.

[MTBwrench]

JDM (Billstein) yo.

 

So I've been told!

 

What are your front runners?

 

Are you going race wagon? Or staying high (it is Colorado after all)?

Chicago

 

My original intent over the summer was full on racewagon... but my inner practicality and logic tell me that's just not a good idea. I want to retain a ride height of 28-30" from ground to fender flare. That's pretty much right between outback and legacy. I do enjoy the ground clearance and capability I have, especially in deep snow, with my current ride height of 29.25". However, I hate the "jacked up" stock outback look, and I HATE the stock suspension. It's boaty, floppy, and underdamped in every aspect. I'm sick of feeling like I'm piloting a coupe DeVille; lots of power and lots of squish. I *think* I can get there with Bilsteins and a "lift kit" of some sort, probably around 1". I also want to keep stock tire size, sans rubbing.

 

My front runners are:

1)Bilsteins

2)Koni cut-a-struts

3)Coilovers, KWv2? (Most likely too impractical and expensive)

...

...

...

9999999) Outback KYB's (NEVER again. I refuse)

 

Right now, my shocks are dead, 110% done. I want whichever one is going to give me the most controlled ride quality, I want it to feel flat(er) in the corners, and I want the rear end to not ricochet off the road like a superball. I want to feel like the rear end is going to break loose, not bounce 2 feet sideways and traction roll the sidewalls. I also want controlled body movement(re: sways & bracing) in transitionary movements. Right now, a chicane makes me feel like I might capsize it, and sharp turn in at speed leads to a particularly uncomfortable feeling movement of mass that throws the entire unibody sideways in body roll. It feels like I'm driving a brick on a road of jelly. Just squish everywhere.

 

Also, due to the dead shocks, the nose dive under braking is just horrendous. Combine that with spirited driving, and the whole wagon's center of mass is just being thrown in all the wrong directions before you let off the brakes to roll into a turn. Sometimes, it dives hard enough to let me engage ABS much easier than it needs to be on bumpy surfaces, because the rears are un-weighted enough to bounce around. Exiting a turn creates a nose bucking that immediately takes weight off the front wheels, and reduces the wonders of AWD whilst simultaneously creating lots of understeer. I don't know a lot about performance driving, but these are my rather elementary and unskilled observations. I don't push my outback often, but when I do, it's sometimes to the absolute limits of my abilities(for very short periods!).

 

 

B_holm does also have a red wagon, and now lives in Colorado...

and there's NYX who lives there, but his is an 07+ and blue...

 

i'm not sure either.

 

Interested in the new suspension info. JDM Billstein? we can split shipping of parts accross the pond! i also might be going over there again in 2016, and can easily bring back an extra checked bag. just have a box delivered to the Japan office and i'll pick it up on my way through.

 

Well., it looks like unless I got myself a BTS kit, I can source everything here. I'm gonna try hard to keep it that way too, just in the name of serviceability and maintenance, since this is my only vehicle. It would suck to be wagonless for three weeks waiting on repair parts from Japan! Now, if I was getting Bilstein PSS coilovers ... I would be taking you up on that!

[magnusonsubie]

For the height you want I'd try specB bilsteins with a spacer in the rear and maybe even run stock Legacy springs or JDM wagon Pink springs if you could find a set and have Flinkly bring them back.

 

Second option I'd do is the Koni's in LGT housing and run stock outback springs but you will probably need a pretty extreme spacer in the rear as the strut body on those is shorter than stock legacy struts.

 

PS: I'd read your list, forgotten the order and then wrote my ideas in pretty much the same order.

 

PPS: No matter what you do coilovers are going to put you at factory LGT height or lower unless you get the BC outback specific or get Rally Coilovers which are going to be super expensive but my be worth it

[Rhitter]

You have seen my car right? I am on Bilstein HDs with spacers. I have a .75 inch spacer in the front and I had 1.5inches of spacer in the back for years.

 

I had JDM Spec.B wagon springs (not pinks) all around, but I switched out the rear to KSRS-29, because the back couldn't handle a load (4 people, 2 dogs, gear for a weekend) without being almost on the bumpstops.

 

The KSRS-29 (King Springs Rear Standard) despite it's name raised the rear of my car an inch and I got rid of the 1 inch spacer. I still have the .5 inch spacer in.

 

If you run USDM.SpecB / Legacy GT front springs and KSRS-29 with spacers, I think you will be pretty happy. This leans towards comfort. Like, sporty comfort.

 

I have heard that the pinks are STIFF.

 

Unsure the shock choice though. I have HDs I like them. AZP highly recommends Konis. They have a lifetime warranty and are adjustable.

 

Don't be afraid to use strut spacers to get to the height you want. Barmanbean is running strut spacers on top of his rear KWs. I think the spring perch is higher on the HDs. So HD, Spec.b Spring, and a 1inch spacer will get you to about 28 inches.

 

Checked my car. Rear is just under 28inches, fronts just under 27.5.

http://i.imgur.com/GyBoHEh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/N2iVNIu.jpg?1

[Flinkly]

Outback KYB's (NEVER again. I refuse)

 

you've run Excel G-2 KYB shocks in your wagon? did you have the early rears and current fronts installed?

 

I believe i'm still running on the OEM shocks/struts at this point, and the rear is pretty horrendous. not a racer here, but would like a little less of the boat feel. but alas, like everyone says, can't stay at outback height unless you go with the slightly-better-than-OEM KYB shock setup or BTS-5058J kit (which is still an inch shorter than USDM height).

 

 

So how "low" is the USDM legacy vs. the outback? is the legacygt wagon as heigh as the OBXT?

 

 

@ OB2.5XT (or all) you lowered to legacy height and then raised the front .75" and rear .5"? is the legacygt wagon as heigh as the OBXT? also, i've always heard that upgraded rear springs and swaybar at the same time is a no-no, not that people don't say that abuot alot of things...

[Rhitter]

The Legacy GT wagon is lower than an OBXT on the same suspension because the tires are smaller. I think it's close to 4 inches lower. I need to check one of my threads from 2011. The OBXT has 8.something inches of ground clearance.

 

I lowered to Legacy height then raised the front .75 and the rear 1.5inches. That made me mostly level. The HDs have a higher spring perch. When I added the KSRS-29 rear spring I was able to remove the 1 inch spacer and retain the same height.

 

A legacy GT wagon is as high as a Legacy GT.

 

Upgraded rear springs + sway bar allows you to over steer more easily. I was at the track and Mark (WPMarky) left the RSB off his wagon because he had 9k spring coilovers on and after the day decided he needed his RSB back on.

 

I technically don't really have upgraded rear springs (not sure progressive springs count), but never had any issues. I am not sure why Rallitek pushed that so hard.

 

If you haven't done an RSB do it now! It does amazing things for the car. I waited because I had HDs on, I should not have waited.

[xt2005bonbon]

I stil have my 05 on stock ride height. I have changed:

 

-RSB

-whiteline bushings on RSB

-AVO RSB brackets

-AVO rear endlinks

-almost ALL rear bushings are whiteline

-have 00-04 KYB rear struts combined with rallitek overload springs

-put new front KYB struts

-have whiteline LCA bushings on the front

 

The handling feels definitely tight no arguing there, but still WAAAAY UNDERDAMPENED!

[MTBwrench]

You have seen my car right? I am on Bilstein HDs with spacers. I have a .75 inch spacer in the front and I had 1.5inches of spacer in the back for years.

 

I had JDM Spec.B wagon springs (not pinks) all around, but I switched out the rear to KSRS-29, because the back couldn't handle a load (4 people, 2 dogs, gear for a weekend) without being almost on the bumpstops.

 

The KSRS-29 (King Springs Rear Standard) despite it's name raised the rear of my car an inch and I got rid of the 1 inch spacer. I still have the .5 inch spacer in.

 

If you run USDM.SpecB / Legacy GT front springs and KSRS-29 with spacers, I think you will be pretty happy. This leans towards comfort. Like, sporty comfort.

 

I have heard that the pinks are STIFF.

 

Unsure the shock choice though. I have HDs I like them. AZP highly recommends Konis. They have a lifetime warranty and are adjustable.

 

Don't be afraid to use strut spacers to get to the height you want. Barmanbean is running strut spacers on top of his rear KWs. I think the spring perch is higher on the HDs. So HD, Spec.b Spring, and a 1inch spacer will get you to about 28 inches.

 

Checked my car. Rear is just under 28inches, fronts just under 27.5.

 

I have seen your wagon, I believe I asked you about it before in your build thread, regarding your Bilstein setup! Your Outback is actually the primary reason I started considering Bilsteins. I'm starting to heavily lean towards this setup, and would most likely want the stiffer pink springs. Im looking for M3 type of ride quality, and by that I mean stiff and controlled body movement, but not rattling my dash apart over bumps etc. Don't worry, I know it'll never actually handle like an M3

 

you've run Excel G-2 KYB shocks in your wagon? did you have the early rears and current fronts installed?

 

I believe i'm still running on the OEM shocks/struts at this point, and the rear is pretty horrendous. not a racer here, but would like a little less of the boat feel. but alas, like everyone says, can't stay at outback height unless you go with the slightly-better-than-OEM KYB shock setup or BTS-5058J kit (which is still an inch shorter than USDM height).

 

 

So how "low" is the USDM legacy vs. the outback? is the legacygt wagon as heigh as the OBXT?

 

 

@ OB2.5XT (or all) you lowered to legacy height and then raised the front .75" and rear .5"? is the legacygt wagon as heigh as the OBXT? also, i've always heard that upgraded rear springs and swaybar at the same time is a no-no, not that people don't say that abuot alot of things...

 

My wagon has 200k on it, GR2's were installed front and rear @ 133,000 miles. I bought it at 189,000 miles, so roughly 60k in. My commute to school was essentially 100% construction at that point, and they got destroyed pretty quick. However, when I first got the wagon and they still damped well... I always felt the rear was too underdamped, the front too floaty. I never have tried the second gen rears, and I probably won't... haha. I'm looking for a very performance oriented setup, albeit one capable of daily driving duties. As far as ride heights I see it as this way so far, from lowest to highest(for USDM models):

 

1) Legacy [2.5i/GT] sedan/wagon

2) Spec.B sedan

3) Outback [2.5i/H6] sedan wagon

4) Outback XT Wagon

 

As for springs/sways, I think that was mostly generated by Rallitek's big campaign. It is very true that stiffer springs give the effect of stiffer sways, because they resist body movement a little more. I think Rallitek was trying to make sure that Joe boyracer does't chuck on stiffer springs and a thick sway and still nail it WOT around his first corner like nothing has changed(he'll oversteer and crash, most likely). For the logical human being; you simply imbibe the fact that you've made an extreme suspension change, and take it easy to relearn your car's limits again.

 

The Legacy GT wagon is lower than an OBXT on the same suspension because the tires are smaller. I think it's close to 4 inches lower. I need to check one of my threads from 2011. The OBXT has 8.something inches of ground clearance.

 

I lowered to Legacy height then raised the front .75 and the rear 1.5inches. That made me mostly level. The HDs have a higher spring perch. When I added the KSRS-29 rear spring I was able to remove the 1 inch spacer and retain the same height.

 

A legacy GT wagon is as high as a Legacy GT.

 

Upgraded rear springs + sway bar allows you to over steer more easily. I was at the track and Mark (WPMarky) left the RSB off his wagon because he had 9k spring coilovers on and after the day decided he needed his RSB back on.

 

I technically don't really have upgraded rear springs (not sure progressive springs count), but never had any issues. I am not sure why Rallitek pushed that so hard.

 

If you haven't done an RSB do it now! It does amazing things for the car. I waited because I had HDs on, I should not have waited.

 

8.7 inches of clearance, to be exact! What you say here concurs with what I've posted above, links like I'm not blowing smoke out my ass this time! I'll do a sway bar, eventually... need to save up some cashola. I'll probably do everything all at once, come spring.

 

I stil have my 05 on stock ride height. I have changed:

 

-RSB

-whiteline bushings on RSB

-AVO RSB brackets

-AVO rear endlinks

-almost ALL rear bushings are whiteline

-have 00-04 KYB rear struts combined with rallitek overload springs

-put new front KYB struts

-have whiteline LCA bushings on the front

 

The handling feels definitely tight no arguing there, but still WAAAAY UNDERDAMPENED!

 

Precisely what I'm trying to avoid... tight handling us useless if the vehicles mass is just flopping all over the road.

 

Here's my tentative setup so far:

 

-Bilstein HD struts/shocks with

-1" Gorilla off-road company Outback lift kit, maybe another .5" in the rear as well

-Some type of spring, ideally wagon pinks

-Spec.B alloy bits

-Choice poly bushings in spots where they matter

-Perrin steering yoke lockdown

-Whiteline RSB with associated frame bracing

-new end links

-New front sway? maybe not.

 

That's the plan so far. I'm discussing this quite in depth via PM with Underdog as well. He's probably going to be supplying me with everything come swap time. (provided whittling keeps their bushings in stock...)

 

MUCH EXCITEMENT! SO WOW!

[xt2005bonbon]

fwiw, I have bilstein HD with pink springs on my 06. Car is about as high as OB2.5XT. And that car inspires so much confidence compared to the 05. But not that great combo on very long trip IMO. A bit harsh.

[Rhitter]

XT2005 have you ever posted pictures of your Outbacks? What size tires do you have on the 2006?

 

MTB What is making you lean towards the HDs over the Koni's?

 

Also have you seen these? Might not need the spacers. Slightly higher and 18% stiffer than stock.

http://www.rallitek.com/raised-springs-kits/6512-rallitek-raised-springs-kit-legacy-2004-2009.html

 

oh yeah, one other thing. The Spec.B / JDM top hats for the HDs have a different shape than the Legacy GT top hats. If you get spacers designed for Legacy GT top hats they won't fit. But HDPE is pretty easy to cut to fit.

One on the left was widened to make it fit the Spec.B top hat

[Flinkly]

so i've heard muttered words about being able to use aluminum suspension bits (from the spec b among others) in a full ride height OBXT. Is this true?

 

i always thought they were only for LGTs and lowered outbacks...

 

also, i'm enjoying this discussion.

[Rhitter]

so i've heard muttered words about being able to use aluminum suspension bits (from the spec b among others) in a full ride height OBXT. Is this true?

 

i always thought they were only for LGTs and lowered outbacks...

 

also, i'm enjoying this discussion.

 

Yes, it's true. LCAs, control arms, etc all work. It's the other bits that give the Outback the drivetrain drop.

 

Any pieces that weren't replaced are basically the same

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/info-ob-gt-suspension-geometry-removing-spacer-180579.html

 

some of them you can use on a full height Outback (rear UCA, etc)

[WRX USA]

so i've heard muttered words about being able to use aluminum suspension bits (from the spec b among others) in a full ride height OBXT. Is this true?

 

i always thought they were only for LGTs and lowered outbacks...

 

also, i'm enjoying this discussion.

 

I'm using all of the aluminum SpecB suspension bits on a JDM height OBXT (BTS-5056) with no problems.

[Underdog]

Yes all the Spec.B aluminum links carry over to the OBXT. To keep the body lift you will retain the OBXT LCA rear mounting stud and gusset plate, as well as the OBXT trailing arm brackets (those parts get swapped out with the body lift removal).

 

The upper links are different in the location of the helper contact pad from the inboard bushing pivot axis. The helper itself is also different. I would suspect that you want to use the correct upper link and helper based on the shock stroke, so if you are using an LGT/Spec.B shock then use the corresponding upper link and helper. With OBXT length shocks the OBXT upper link and helper should be used. I am just shooting from the hip based on recollection here.

 

The kit I put together has everything to convert to the '09 Spec.B suspension, but with Bilstein HDs. I was really only looking to get rid of the entire kit and not just the aluminum links which probably carry the highest value to me as spares for my LGT.

[Rhitter]

What springs were you going to pair with the Bilsteins? And why HDs over Koni's?

[Underdog]

What springs were you going to pair with the Bilsteins? And why HDs over Koni's?

 

 

New OEM '09 Spec.B springs (6MT). I prefer the damping characteristics and build quality/consistency of the Bilsteins. Konis are a great value if you require an adjustable shock and don't want to step up to KW/RCE coils or better.

[MTBwrench]

fwiw, I have bilstein HD with pink springs on my 06. Car is about as high as OB2.5XT. And that car inspires so much confidence compared to the 05. But not that great combo on very long trip IMO. A bit harsh.

 

Stock tire size? You should post up a picture.

 

MTB What is making you lean towards the HDs over the Koni's?

 

Well, it seems the Bilsetin HD's have a more aggressive compression dampening circuit. Also, while the Konis are adjustable, its only rebound that's being adjusted. IMO, on a DD, rebound is more of a set it and forget it type of thing. Too much and it feels like a pogo stick, too little and the shock eats up travel and rides the bump stops in times of repeated impact. Also, the Bilstein HD's will net me a higher overall ride hieght than Konis in legacy struts, thanks to the JDM tophats.

 

Also have you seen these? Might not need the spacers. Slightly higher and 18% stiffer than stock.

http://www.rallitek.com/raised-springs-kits/6512-rallitek-raised-springs-kit-legacy-2004-2009.html

 

Rallitek doesn't mention these being Spec.B compatible... I wonder if they would fit on the shocks/struts?

 

so i've heard muttered words about being able to use aluminum suspension bits (from the spec b among others) in a full ride height OBXT. Is this true?

 

i always thought they were only for LGTs and lowered outbacks...

 

This is indeed true, see below

 

Yes, it's true. LCAs, control arms, etc all work. It's the other bits that give the Outback the drivetrain drop.

 

Any pieces that weren't replaced are basically the same

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/info-ob-gt-suspension-geometry-removing-spacer-180579.html

 

some of them you can use on a full height Outback (rear UCA, etc)

 

I'm using all of the aluminum SpecB suspension bits on a JDM height OBXT (BTS-5056) with no problems.

:cool: (extra cool face because ultra JDM BTS awesomeness)

 

Yes all the Spec.B aluminum links carry over to the OBXT. To keep the body lift you will retain the OBXT LCA rear mounting stud and gusset plate, as well as the OBXT trailing arm brackets (those parts get swapped out with the body lift removal).

...

With OBXT length shocks the OBXT upper link and helper should be used. I am just shooting from the hip based on recollection here.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with you here, using the LGT links in my setup is probably a better idea. When combined with Whiteline's adjustable camber kit, shouldn't be an issue at all.

 

also, i'm enjoying this discussion.

 

Stay subscribed, good things will be discussed here. Sometimes I'm far too technical for my own well being!

 

The kit I put together has everything to convert to the '09 Spec.B suspension, but with Bilstein HDs. I was really only looking to get rid of the entire kit and not just the aluminum links which probably carry the highest value to me as spares for my LGT.

 

I'm still interested in the struts and shocks with 6mt springs as well. But... probably only this portion of it:

 

- Spec.B aluminum LCAs

- Spec.B aluminum trailing arms *sans* mounting brackets

- Spec.B aluminum UCAs

- New Bilstein HDs

- New 6MT Spec.B springs

- New Spec.B upper strut/shock mounts

- Spec.B 6MT rear bump stops

 

 

I probably won't need:

- LGT 5MT Driveshaft #5EATLyfe

- LGT/Spec.B midpipe heatshield

- LGT/Spec.B F&R subframe bolts

- LGT/Spec.B LCA rear stud and gusset plates

- LGT 5MT shift arm and stay rod

- LGT/Spec.B hood scoop duct

- LGT 5MT trans cradle

- LGT/Spec.B undertray bolts

- LGT/Spec.B steering rack u-joint OR LGT/Spec.B steering rack (which would use your OBXT u-joint)

 

Although I totally understand you wanting to keep the alloy bits, or keep it all as a kit! Either way, I'm starting to be pretty sure this is the route I'm going. This is after a rather intense session on google images looking up photos of HD shocks and struts on Outbacks, and reading raving reviews.

[Underdog]

Absolutely willing to sell the HDs, springs, upper mounts, and helpers. I'll have to think about the aluminum links...

 

I think you will be very happy with the route you are heading down. Consider a matching front swaybar - it tightens up the front end's response to steering inputs considerably. FYI - I also have a set of WL adjustable bars with AVO RSB mounts and relatively fresh bushings that I just pulled off my OBXT as part of a return-to-stock.

 

For endlinks I actually recommend to stay stock as they are inexpensive and do a fine job transmitting force to the bar in street driving conditions. If you must upgrade then I recommend WL endlinks, which are shielded-spherical type and adjustable length. However they can sometimes strip out (aluminum turnbuckle bodies) so you have to be careful locking down the jam nuts (I use a medium grade loctite and just snug them slightly). WL has a great customer service program and will often replace stripped endlinks for free.

[MTBwrench]

I sent ya a PM Underdog. After some consideration, I'm okay with not blowing y budget on aluminum links for a daily driver. It'd be cool, but unnecessary. I might take you up on the sways as well! I'll heed your advice on the endlinks, mine actually appear to have been recently replaced along with the sway bushings, so I don't mind cutting that cost.

 

Stay tuned everyone

[MTBwrench]

Been very slow the last few weeks as far as suspension developments... got temporarily laid off from my job for the winter season on account of a crappy fiscal year. Start using your local bike shops people! Mine is one of the last few local shops in the area, there used to be about seven, now were down to three. If one more customer comes in and tells me they can get an item cheaper on [insert closeout website here], Im gonna lose it. Is [insert closeout website here] going to take care of your warranty when you crack your frame? How about help you with that weird noise your brakes make? Is it going to fix your bike when your "gears are clicking"? No, didn't think so. Anyways... /rant

 

Finally finished my LGT brake swap today. The fronts were done a few months back with DBA T3 rotors and Hawk HPS 5.0 pads. The rears were completed yesterday with the same pads, and Centric premium rotors. Feels fantastic and much less front biased now

 

The fronts(for reference):

 

The old rears:

 

The new rear setup: