GrimmSpeed 05-09 LGT Intake - Any Interest?

[quick4dr]

I'm in! I hope it's out for late September! Birthday is October 12th and this looks like a great gift for myself! Quality takes time however can at least be on the top of the list lol

[GrimmSpeed]

Super stoked for this. Glad GS is helping keep these cars alive with shiny new things

 

You guys keep the cars alive, we just help provide tools to facilitate your enjoyment

 

Chase,

 

Can has dyno charts? I'm sure the internet would like to see, and I would as well.

 

Thanks

 

Haven't you read any of this thread, besides you were there you knob! Dyno Dynamics doesn't make a dyno viewer like dynojet does, so we were using a custom made one. The server for that is broken now, so I have to extrapolate the raw data and create the charts in Excel. I'll work on that some this afternoon and get something going on hopefully this week.

 

Chase-

 

Any chance you've got some initial release units, or a prototype or two kicking around? I'm trying to get tuned with my new grimmspeed EWG and tmic setup in the next couple weeks, been on wastegate pressure since I got my car running again in June and it's killing me. Help?!?!

 

Obi-Wan kenobi, you're my only hope! Lol

 

Yeah Derp has the only prototype unit. And I believe that every single unit was finished with welding yesterday. So they'll go off to powdercoating, and then we can release them. So don't worry, it won't be long now!

 

I'm in! I hope it's out for late September! Birthday is October 12th and this looks like a great gift for myself! Quality takes time however can at least be on the top of the list lol

 

I'm hoping this as well, and it looks like it's shaping up to be very possible.

 

Chase

Engineering

[GrimmSpeed]

Alright, for our dyno day we did something a little different than what we did last time with the GR intake. I've compiled the results (as most of you know the server for our DD viewer is down, so these charts had to be made with raw data in Excel), and we're ready to share our dyno day with you!

 

The car we used was a forum member's (derp) and was equipped with an uppipe, downpipe, catback, and intercooler as far as performance modifications go. The car sees the occasional track day, and has 147k on the engine. Our tuner (Shane @ DB Performance) not only tunes race cars as well as road cars, but does racing himself. Keeping this motor intact was number one priority, so that means a good track tune, which is substantially more conservative than a street tune.

 

It was hotter than hell (for Minnesota) at 91 degrees F, and humidity in the dyno room at 54%. Derp and I stood outside in the sun all day while the tuner worked his magic. The dyno used is a Dyno Dynamics dynamometer, affectionately called "The Heart Breaker" and reads substantially lower than your standard DynoJet. So if the numbers sound low, its the conversion, not the vehicles. For example, our 2015 WRX put down about 180whp, where on a DynoJet it'll put down 220-230whp.

 

Derp's car has the aforementioned modifications and was road tuned by someone semi-local. Our tuner took a quick look at the tune (this was done via open source) and did our first dyno run of the day. This yielded a baseline of 207ftlbs and 177hp to the rollers. This is "Run 001."

 

I've decided to make one single dyno chart as opposed to multiple for comparison purposes, and will explain the runs as we go.

 

http://www.grimmspeed.com/content/images/intake_legacygt_dyno_1.jpg

 

From here, the tuner identified some interesting fueling and boost control strategies from the previous tuner, and started to change to his own strategies. The first things he did were to change the MAF scale back to the stock MAF scale. This was important to us as far as testing goes so we could see if our "+12% over stock MAF scale" was going to work with this MAF sensor as well. It was also contributing to the very odd AFR curve of run 001.

 

The boost control strategy was also quite odd as well, with full spool at 4000rpm (15.5psi). This needed to be addressed too, so on to the Protune!

 

After a couple of runs he had boost control and fueling dialed in. Instead of a very very strange constant taper from 15:1 to 10:1 AFR, the car was running a flat AFR curve at 11:1. Full boost (16psi) was now coming on at 3700rpm instead of 4000rpm. After a couple more timing changes the tuner believed we had gotten all we were going to get out of the stock intake at 229.0ftlbs and 203.8hp. The DynoJet equivalent of these numbers would be closer to 280ftlbs/250hp, which is pretty impressive! Run 005 shows the final results of the protune on the stock airbox. Very impressive gains compared to what the car came in with, and shows that the tuner didnt hold back to "sweeten" the results.

 

Now, just like we did on the GR, we wanted to show what a simple hardware change did to the car at this tune level. Instead of protuning this intake too we chose to simply swap on the GrimmSpeed intake, do a dyno run, and then see what it would take as far as MAF scaling goes to match the stock airbox. We did this instead of performing further tuning to optimize the intake, as we already did that in the GR intake tests and are well aware of it's capability.

 

For run 006 I simply swapped on our intake, and Shane performed a pull with no tuning changes over the optimized stock airbox tune. As an engineer this was the exact data I was looking for, and the results did not disappoint. Immediately, because there is now less restriction in the intake tract the turbo is making about .75 more psi at peak boost. Not only that, but peak boost is occurring 200 rpm's sooner at 3500rpm. The car easily ripped off 240ftlbs at the peak (+20ftlbs) with gains of over 10ftlbs and 10hp everywhere. Our tuner cut the run off at 4500rpm as he doesn't like AFRs at 11.5:1, or the top end gains were looking to be even more.

 

This also showed the other chunk of data that was extremely exciting, look at the AFR curve between run 006 and 005. They are identical other than the .5 point difference. This shows exactly what we saw during GR testing: That the flow characteristics across the MAF behave exactly like they do on the stock airbox, just scaled. This means easy tuning, and predictable MAF readings.

 

The tuner knew that a difference of half a point AFR was equivalent to about 12% (the exact same as on the GR intake), and made the appropriate change to the MAF scale and completed run 007. Now, I've just realized that the legend for the boost and AFR for run 007 was cut off, but they are still on the chart. The colors of the lines for AFR and Boost is the same as HP and TQ, respectively.

 

The AFR for the GrimmSpeed intake with 12% scaled MAF (run 007) is spot on to the AFR for the stock airbox's run (005). No commentary necessary as it really does not get any better than that.

 

The difference in boost with the GrimmSpeed intake vs the stock airbox (007 vs 005) is direct physical evidence of the decrease in restriction that our intake provides. We see the exact same increase in boost and exact same earlier spool at run 006 (albeit a little cleaner), but if you look at the boost for the pink line (007) vs the boost for the purple line (005) you can see another thing we expect to see: As the RPMs increase the difference in restriction grows apart. The stock airbox is struggling to breathe in the top end compared to that with our intake. Whereas they are nearly the same boost value at around 4000rpm, by redline they have separated by nearly an entire psi.

 

Our tuner said we could easily make 220-230whp on this car with this setup. The intake coupled with our intercooler and quality 93 octane fuel could easily support these goals. However, the fact that the car sees track time, has nearly 150k miles on the stock block, a 5 speed, and not wanting to potentially pop derp's engine, the tuner decided to leave the car where it was. So we see untuned gains of about 5-10ftlbs everywhere and 5+hp everywhere, and evidence showing that much larger gains are to be had with protuning. Our results were impressive (and expected as the design is nearly identical to that of our GR WRX's intake) in that we were able to prove that our intake lowers restriction in front of the turbo, making it more efficient while being able to identically mimic the stock airbox's MAF readings.

 

So we achieved our goal, we're very happy, and you will be too as soon as we can get one into your hands!

 

Chase

Engineering

[Grothe08LGT]

Sooooo you can start the initial group by now!! Jk, I am beyond excited to get my hands on this! Thanks again, Chase!

[rebourne]

Fantastic write up. Worth the wait. More boost on the top end is literally the icing on the cake and the proverbial nail in the coffin that the stock intake is all you need up to 300hp (or whatever number people are throwing out). AFAIK, you really can't buy more top end pull without replacing the turbo. Well, until this comes out, you can't.

[TheMonaLisa]

So ready for this group buy to start

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MTBwrench]

That's precisely all the info I needed. I'll bet this, combined with my JMP billet turbo, will lead to some crazy sweet spooling times! I also love that it was designed so that there is a pretty agreed upon, easily attainable tuning adjustment to the MAF scale to retain the A/F curve. Fantastic!

 

*patiently awaits group buy*

[wicknetzel]

The car we used was a forum member's (derp) and was equipped with an uppipe, downpipe, catback, and intercooler as far as performance modifications go.

 

Wasn't mentioned, so I'm assuming he was not using your EBCS. I have the same setup and my only debate in this is if it would be worth also throwing the EBCS on my car while getting retuned for the intake. Chase - do you think at a stage 2 setup, there would be a benefit to the EBCS also? I know it's nothing on our cars like the new 2.0 platform is, but it seemed to make a big difference there.

[GrimmSpeed]

Sooooo you can start the initial group by now!! Jk, I am beyond excited to get my hands on this! Thanks again, Chase!

 

It's coming soon man! I'm pretty excited for you to get your hands on it too! And don't thank me, thank GrimmSpeed, I'm just part of the team

 

Fantastic write up. Worth the wait. More boost on the top end is literally the icing on the cake and the proverbial nail in the coffin that the stock intake is all you need up to 300hp (or whatever number people are throwing out). AFAIK, you really can't buy more top end pull without replacing the turbo. Well, until this comes out, you can't.

 

Yeah, I've read that BS a million times and that's why we do testing like this. Any time you can remove restriction before the turbo you're doing a good thing by increasing efficiency. Remove 1 psi before the turbo, and make 1 more psi of boost with the turbo doing the same amount of "work." It doesn't matter what power level you're at. But it certainly is amplified when you get into the higher power levels, which is where the "internet tale" comes from. Plus if people want to believe that's true, good for them. Because with the same modifications you'll be passing them right by And you're exactly right, with a turbo that is already falling off so quickly, an extra pound of boost up top is awesome.

 

So ready for this group buy to start

 

Luckily it's happening soon. I don't know the exact date, but I imagine that once they're back from powdercoating and they're packaged up, we'll be ready to rock.

 

That's precisely all the info I needed. I'll bet this, combined with my JMP billet turbo, will lead to some crazy sweet spooling times! I also love that it was designed so that there is a pretty agreed upon, easily attainable tuning adjustment to the MAF scale to retain the A/F curve. Fantastic!

 

*patiently awaits group buy*

 

The priority of design from the beginning was ALWAYS to achieve those stock airbox-like flow characteristics across the MAF. Design intent and design content are two very different things though, so when in practice it comes out to be true it really is an achievement. Tuning an intake shouldn't suck, and this is about as easy as it gets!

 

Oh, and yeah, that should spool like a mofo

 

Wasn't mentioned, so I'm assuming he was not using your EBCS. I have the same setup and my only debate in this is if it would be worth also throwing the EBCS on my car while getting retuned for the intake. Chase - do you think at a stage 2 setup, there would be a benefit to the EBCS also? I know it's nothing on our cars like the new 2.0 platform is, but it seemed to make a big difference there.

 

I don't think that he did have a EBCS either, but derp has so many of our parts that i'd be surprised. However, to answer your question i do 100% recommend getting the EBCS. Even if you weren't getting retuned just for the intake I would recommend it for stage 2, but the fact that you are makes it a no brainer. It's always nice to give your tuner more weapons to control your engine the way you two decide, and the EBCS is vital in dialing in the boost control that YOU want.

 

Chase

Engineering

[LegacyDan]

Subscribed. Definitely interested if it will fit JDM models. Currently running a KSTech intake so this should fit fine

[derp]

For the record, I DO have a GrimmSpeed EBCS.

[derp]

GrimmSpeed wish list:

Wagon catback

Turbo inlet

A strut brace that works with their giant ass intercooler

Rear strut brace

Short throw shifter

Shift knob

 

Come on Chase and Matt, doo eet

[PeterJMC]

Strut brace that would work with the giant ass intercooler would be NICE!

Someone needs to make a catback similar to Cobbs discontinued model with the oval tips

[wicknetzel]

GrimmSpeed wish list:

Wagon catback

Turbo inlet

A strut brace that works with their giant ass intercooler

Rear strut brace

Short throw shifter

Shift knob

 

Come on Chase and Matt, doo eet

 

First priority wagon catback.

 

For what it's worth, rumor has it GS has a catback for the new WRX platform somewhere in the future. Someone else on LGT only had to do minor mods to an exhaust from the new WRX to fit it to their car. I'm not saying I want to hack up a beautiful new product... but for the right sound, I'll do it in a heartbeat.

[MTBwrench]

First priority wagon catback with Outback style turndown muffler tip option..

 

 

Fixed that one for ya

[762x39]

^MTB for OBXT President!

[Saltysubie]

Grimmspeed wish list? How about a set of Legacy aluminum rear trailing arms made to fit the STi rear wheel bearing hub assembly? That would be awesome!

[fahr_side]

Any time you can remove restriction before the turbo you're doing a good thing by increasing efficiency. Remove 1 psi before the turbo, and make 1 more psi of boost with the turbo doing the same amount of "work." It doesn't matter what power level you're at. But it certainly is amplified when you get into the higher power levels, which is where the "internet tale" comes from. Plus if people want to believe that's true, good for them. Because with the same modifications you'll be passing them right by And you're exactly right, with a turbo that is already falling off so quickly, an extra pound of boost up top is awesome.

 

 

 

Wouldn't the best proof of this be in logging the vacuum in both your intake and the stock one? Less vacuum is less pressure drop, which is less restriction.

 

You're also stating that claims on the stock intake being enough up to 300hp and that aftermarket intakes don't help are BS, but also that your new intake is better than the others on the market. Either your intake is better than existing products and those of other vendors are only as good as (or worse than stock), or your new item is not better than theirs. If it's the former it's not fair to say the claims that those other intakes are not better than stock are BS. You can't have it both ways.

 

 

Sent from some electronic device.

[TheMonaLisa]

Wouldn't the best proof of this be in logging the vacuum in both your intake and the stock one? Less vacuum is less pressure drop, which is less restriction.

 

You're also stating that claims on the stock intake being enough up to 300hp and that aftermarket intakes don't help are BS, but also that your new intake is better than the others on the market. Either your intake is better than existing products and those of other vendors are only as good as (or worse than stock), or your new item is not better than theirs. If it's the former it's not fair to say the claims that those other intakes are not better than stock are BS. You can't have it both ways.

 

 

Sent from some electronic device.

 

Well for starters the K&N intake is worse than stock intake as the maf housing is smaller in diameter than stock. They also proved their intake adds 5+ hp over the stock intake. Thus, you can have your cake and eat it too.

[fahr_side]

'Proven' eh? I've never seen any gains from K&Ns if AFR was the same, at least not on the stock turbo. I can't even say there was a trend toward lower WGDC required to hit the same boost pressure.

 

I do think you're going in the right direction though. Paper filter with same or more surface area than stock, check. I hate foam filters, have measured horrible pressure drop across HKS-type mushrooms. Stock or larger diameter, check. As you say, smaller might be easier to scale but where's the point in that? Smooth bends with MAF far enough away, check. Seen too many with MAF sensor smack in the most turbulent place they could find, impossible to get a smooth MAF scaling. Really tight-fitting airbox and air drawn from outside the engine bay, check. Too many out there with skimpy 'isolation' that does nothing.

 

 

Sent from some electronic device.

[GrimmSpeed]

Subscribed. Definitely interested if it will fit JDM models. Currently running a KSTech intake so this should fit fine

 

Now that much I do not know, as I've never touched a JDM LGT here. I think that if I saw some pictures of the intake area with the intake and airbox removed I'd be able to tell, but that's really the best I can do without using my own two eyes in person.

 

For the record, I DO have a GrimmSpeed EBCS.

 

That's what I thought!

 

GrimmSpeed wish list:

Wagon catback

Turbo inlet

A strut brace that works with their giant ass intercooler

Rear strut brace

Short throw shifter

Shift knob

 

Come on Chase and Matt, doo eet

 

Strut brace that would work with the giant ass intercooler would be NICE!

Someone needs to make a catback similar to Cobbs discontinued model with the oval tips

 

I can say that I'm working on one of those things, but I won't tell you which one. But, we've been tending to stay away from strut bars for these cars with the strut towers SO close to the firewall, as just from what we know from previous testing, there is unlikely to be very much deflection at all. Aka, we really don't think strut tower bars will do anything.

 

But I have seen pictures of the STI flexible strut bar fitting with our intercooler on the GR chassis.

 

We'll see just how deep we get into cat backs with our current fitments, but I sincerely doubt that a wagon catback is in our future, sorry folks!

 

First priority wagon catback.

 

For what it's worth, rumor has it GS has a catback for the new WRX platform somewhere in the future. Someone else on LGT only had to do minor mods to an exhaust from the new WRX to fit it to their car. I'm not saying I want to hack up a beautiful new product... but for the right sound, I'll do it in a heartbeat.

 

I'm familiar with that rumor I also happen to know that that same catback comes very close to fitting GR sedans. So I'm interested to see how close it comes to fitting a wagon.

 

Grimmspeed wish list? How about a set of Legacy aluminum rear trailing arms made to fit the STi rear wheel bearing hub assembly? That would be awesome!

 

That sounds expensive, damn expensive!

 

Wouldn't the best proof of this be in logging the vacuum in both your intake and the stock one? Less vacuum is less pressure drop, which is less restriction.

 

You're also stating that claims on the stock intake being enough up to 300hp and that aftermarket intakes don't help are BS, but also that your new intake is better than the others on the market. Either your intake is better than existing products and those of other vendors are only as good as (or worse than stock), or your new item is not better than theirs. If it's the former it's not fair to say the claims that those other intakes are not better than stock are BS. You can't have it both ways.

 

Best proof? Not necessarily, I would say that it is different proof. I fail to see the difference in measuring the pressure differential between the airbox or filter and the compressor housing, and measuring the pressure differential of actual boost output between runs. When testing N/A intakes, such as the BRZ/FR-S we certainly do use our differential pressure manometer as we obviously have no boost to measure on the dyno. However, the refresh rate on our Manometer isn't nearly as good as the sensor on the dyno, and we can't log it against RPM, but rather against time. So it's not nearly as useful for showing data. And you're absolutely right, less vacuum (differential vacuum, not total!) is less pressure drop which is less restriction. So showing that we have a pressure gain at the outlet also shows that there is less pressure drop, and thus less restriction. Same exact thing, and even better than it shows a real-world gain in boost at the compressor. So with that said, I would argue that our approach is better, and would consider no approach to be "best."

 

I guess I'm confused on your second part, because I certainly am saying that the claim that there is a certain power level in which an intake becomes useful IS BS, because even at stock power levels a decrease in restriction before the turbo is a good thing. And the general claim I've seen over and over that "an intake does nothing before 300whp" certainly can not be true for all instances, as this is proof right here of the opposite.

 

And with that said, there is no claim made by us at all that an aftermarket intake isn't better than stock. We'll continue to stand by the ideal that so long as you're decreasing restriction between the turbo inlet and before the air filter, you're offering a benefit. So I'm not sure where you thought we claimed those are mutually exclusive things, or that we at all agree with the idea that the stock intake is good to a certain power figure. So our intake can be better than current offerings, and be better than the stock intake as well, to clear up any weird semantics misinterpretations.

 

'Proven' eh? I've never seen any gains from K&Ns if AFR was the same, at least not on the stock turbo. I can't even say there was a trend toward lower WGDC required to hit the same boost pressure.

 

I do think you're going in the right direction though. Paper filter with same or more surface area than stock, check. I hate foam filters, have measured horrible pressure drop across HKS-type mushrooms. Stock or larger diameter, check. As you say, smaller might be easier to scale but where's the point in that? Smooth bends with MAF far enough away, check. Seen too many with MAF sensor smack in the most turbulent place they could find, impossible to get a smooth MAF scaling. Really tight-fitting airbox and air drawn from outside the engine bay, check. Too many out there with skimpy 'isolation' that does nothing.

 

Here is some good proof that with our intake a lower WGDC is required to hit the same boost as with the stock intake, tested by a third party and with a forum member present. I'm not necessarily surprised that the K&N doesn't either, as the piping diameter is smaller than the entire stock intake tract, and the only possible benefit would come from a less restrictive filter, but with probably a hit for a less sealed design than stock.

 

And I 100% agree with you, we're certainly not first to market with offering an intake for these cars, in fact we're about 10 years late. But that's why we're able to see the shortcomings of everything that has been released, and make a design that doesn't have the same compromises. And we haven't made an individual claim that our intake is better than X because it offers x.xx PSI less restriction, but rather that we've described it in it's total form. In that it offers an OEM-like MAF curve, a decrease in restriction, MAF sensor heat shielding, and looks a heck of a lot better. And only one of those points is opinion

 

Chase

Engineering

[TheMonaLisa]

Can we start the group buy now? So once they're back from powder-coating they can ship immediately.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[762x39]

That is the most amazing an efficient idea EVer. ^^Yes Please can we?? I Want!^^

[quick4dr]

I'm ready. Any color doesn't matter as long as it's grimmspeed!! I'm due on EFI dyno in about 3 weeks. Would love this on before then .

[Grothe08LGT]

Agree with TheMonaLisa!