GTEASER Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 If you are getting 3.7V for the TGV position sensor, it looks like it's fully open based on this page from the FSM. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal8788 Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 If you are getting 3.7V for the TGV position sensor, it looks like it's fully open based on this page from the FSM. [ATTACH]219301[/ATTACH] Great - thank you for that! So I guess the next question becomes ' Is it still possible that they are not opening even though the voltage is appropriate'? My buddy has a boroscope and I think it might be time to do a little investigation.... VF54 to 20G to VF54 to 18G build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 What seems odd to me is even with your slightly modified intake setup, if you're hitting 280+ g/sec (as we see in the logs, and which shows its good you changed things around cause that's awfully close to pegging an unscaled/stock MAF @ 300g/sec)... then you're effectively (very very roughly) seeing ~275-285whp. Is that what you expect on your Stage 3 E85 setup? Not sure how that's reflective of the power drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal8788 Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 On the 'good' tune I was pulling around 340 g/sec so the airflow isn't down significantly, but if you look at the acceleration, it is down by about half. In my 'good' log I was able to accelerate from about 30 to about 70 in about 5 seconds. Today it is taking about 10 seconds. VF54 to 20G to VF54 to 18G build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandborn Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Silly, and maybe addressed....but, what about "bad E85"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal8788 Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 Silly, and maybe addressed....but, what about "bad E85"? Nope, not silly at all. The lack of power is silly but the suggestions are appreciated! Alas, I had tested my previous tank and this one and both are ~83% ethanol. Unless there is something else in the gas that is causing my issues unrelated to ethanol content, but to be fair, I have been noticing the issue for probably over a month. I really don't know what to do aside from swapping around my coil packs. Even if this issue follows my #3 coil and I replace it, I have a hard time believing that much power could be lost from 1 weak coil pack. From what GTEASER shared, the TGVs should be open but I will still be verifying that on Monday evening. Aside from those two things, I am totally stuck so please keep throwing out any ideas that come to mind. VF54 to 20G to VF54 to 18G build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal8788 Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) Okay friends, more datalogs! I have a 1-2 gear with WOT in both gears, another 3rd gear pull, and a 2-3 gear pull. I see that in the 2-3 gear pull, there is some roughness detected in both cylinders 3 and 4. I also see that the 'Knock Sum' parameters show the greatest value for cylinder 4 but are also showing something from cylinder 1 and 3. Interested to hear your thoughts and comments. PS - I should note that for some reason, this 3rd gear pull, while still extremely underwhelming, felt a bit more spirited than the previous pulls I have posted. I plotted it in Virtual Dyno and it does appear to be a more powerful fun but extremely erratic - the curves are bouncing up and down like a decaying sine wave. Not sure what this means....3rd low power.csv1st - 2nd low power.csv2nd - 3rd low power.csv Edited November 6, 2015 by jackal8788 VF54 to 20G to VF54 to 18G build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal8788 Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) What seems odd to me is even with your slightly modified intake setup, if you're hitting 280+ g/sec (as we see in the logs, and which shows its good you changed things around cause that's awfully close to pegging an unscaled/stock MAF @ 300g/sec)... then you're effectively (very very roughly) seeing ~275-285whp. Is that what you expect on your Stage 3 E85 setup? Not sure how that's reflective of the power drop. Perscitus, you got me thinking more about this though. I'm still basically hitting my boost targets but doing it with less airflow. The only way that could be happening is a restriction downstream of the pressure sensor. What is downstream of the pressure sensor? Throttle plate, TGVs.....anything else? The logs show that both the throttle plate and left & right TGVs should be fully open but this has me wondering if they really are.... Edited November 6, 2015 by jackal8788 VF54 to 20G to VF54 to 18G build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandon.mol Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) If the sensors were taken off and put back on wrong they can be off. They are, from what I have read very sensitive to that kind of thing. I have no first hand experience, just something I read. You could try seeing if you can manually open them all the way some how... Not sure if its possible. The car will idle like shit, but should have full honey-badger-power at revs. You could always remove the intake manifold and inspect them. Possibly even actuate them with some DC power from a PC power supply. You can get a nice clean 5 volt DC source there. Edited November 7, 2015 by brandon.mol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal8788 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 I think I will be pulling the intake manifold off tomorrow night after work to see if things are opening like they should be. Can anyone confirm if both the throttle and TGVs will open fully if I have the ignition in the 'ON' position, engine not actually running, and floor the accelerator? My plan was to just do this and see if things are really opening like they should. While I'm in there I may also do the TGV delete or at least grind the flappers off the rods just so there is no question about them being a factor anymore. Open to any thoughts on this plan. VF54 to 20G to VF54 to 18G build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acumenhokie Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 You could also just buy a pre-deleted TGV to stick in. http://www.iagperformance.com/IAG-Silver-CNC-Top-Feed-TGV-Delete-WRX-STI-LGT-FXT-p/iag-afd-3001sl.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal8788 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 You could also just buy a pre-deleted TGV to stick in. http://www.iagperformance.com/IAG-Silver-CNC-Top-Feed-TGV-Delete-WRX-STI-LGT-FXT-p/iag-afd-3001sl.htm I had looked at those, but was trying to keep from dropping too much extra money. You know, cuz that's been such a successful strategy up to this point VF54 to 20G to VF54 to 18G build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBPeik Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I am pretty sure that when you disconnect the battery and then reconnect, when you first turn the key to on the throttle opens and closes to learn its limits. Not sure about the tgv though. This could be an easy way to at least check the throttle. My someday I will be done with it thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 If you are getting 3.7V for the TGV position sensor, it looks like it's fully open based on this page from the FSM. [ATTACH]219301[/ATTACH] I think it's actually pretty difficult to have a correct reading and the butterfly not be open. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal8788 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 I think it's actually pretty difficult to have a correct reading and the butterfly not be open. This was my concern since it most likely means they are opening properly. Would that likely be the same case with the throttle plate? From my datalogs, 100% accelerator position is corresponding to 100% throttle position. Have you ever seen a scenario where the ECU thinks it is at 100% throttle but in reality it is less? VF54 to 20G to VF54 to 18G build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatentWagen Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Let's rethink this. If you're moving nearly as much air as before, you're making about the same power. Can't really argue that. Mostly everything points to a healthy motor (so don't go opening that up, just yet). You're acceleration is the problem... so what does that leave us with? Either the weight of your car has increased, or there is some drag on the drivetrain. You'd smell and see it if your brakes were dragging, so it's gotta be something else. What that is, tho... ?!?!?! The improved spool would support the theory that your car is somehow more heavily laden now. That would also mean that your virtual dyno numbers are wrong because the effective weight is off (at this point, we've got to trust your airflow readings). It would follow that your car would see a little more knock with higher loads, too. LW's spec. B / YT / IG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesedil Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I'm not sure how the car's weight is something worth investigating. He'd need to have several hundred pounds of extra weight to see the effects that he's seeing. Maybe Jackal hit a moose and it's still stuck in his windshield and he hasn't noticed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatentWagen Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Not the weight. The effective weight. Huge difference. By "heavily laden" I meant carrying extra load, or burdened somehow. It does not actually mean "heavy" in my context, sorry to confuse. Think parachute or anchor, rather than sandbags in the trunk. Basically, I'm saying there's gotta be drag on the drivetrain somewhere (obviously not the brakes). Edited November 9, 2015 by LatentWagen LW's spec. B / YT / IG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojorios Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 You could also just buy a pre-deleted TGV to stick in. http://www.iagperformance.com/IAG-Silver-CNC-Top-Feed-TGV-Delete-WRX-STI-LGT-FXT-p/iag-afd-3001sl.htm I am just gonna bookmark this for a future enable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal8788 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Let's rethink this. If you're moving nearly as much air as before, you're making about the same power. Can't really argue that. Mostly everything points to a healthy motor (so don't go opening that up, just yet). You're acceleration is the problem... so what does that leave us with? Either the weight of your car has increased, or there is some drag on the drivetrain. You'd smell and see it if your brakes were dragging, so it's gotta be something else. What that is, tho... ?!?!?! The improved spool would support the theory that your car is somehow more heavily laden now. That would also mean that your virtual dyno numbers are wrong because the effective weight is off (at this point, we've got to trust your airflow readings). It would follow that your car would see a little more knock with higher loads, too. Well, I took a few more logs this weekend at ~75% throttle and I'm pulling almost the same MAF as I do at 100% throttle which is obviously concerning. From that standpoint and the faster-building boost peaks, it does make me believe the restriction theory as the only way to reach the same pressure with less air is by providing a greater restriction or increasing temperature. With regards to driveline drag or added weight, I definitely get the idea but it would seem that anything which contributes enough drag to effectively cut my power in half would cause the car to decelerate pretty damn fast when power is not being applied (clutching, coasting, etc.). I can't say that I've noticed anything at all like this. I hope everyone knows that I am appreciating the dialogue and ideas being generated. Y'all are enablers, bet feckin' helpful enablers VF54 to 20G to VF54 to 18G build thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatentWagen Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Let us know if you find that moose! LW's spec. B / YT / IG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LatentWagen Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Seriously though, I think that the conflicting Virtual Dyno data / MAF readings are telling us something... your car is making most of its power, but you've got half the accel. Unless you really do have a moose riding shotgun, my bet it on something after the engine sapping power. LW's spec. B / YT / IG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 So I guess the TGV delete is the next logical enable here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutchard Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Did the car sit for a while at some point? Maybe something made a nest in the exhaust somewhere? I've had rodents build a nest inside an exhaust I had sitting outside before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 This was my concern since it most likely means they are opening properly. Would that likely be the same case with the throttle plate? From my datalogs, 100% accelerator position is corresponding to 100% throttle position. Have you ever seen a scenario where the ECU thinks it is at 100% throttle but in reality it is less? Yes, but not by a huge amount. There's a section in the FSM on how to check the TPS motor / sensor sync. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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