ECU/Stuttering Follow-Ups

[Brady]

I now have about 1000 miles on the reflash .... it's not changing much. Still stutters uphill at about half throttle. Lame.

[OCDetails]

At what point is this car a Lemon? It is getting really bad now. I'm at 800 miles post reflash and it is terrible. I don't have to try and reproduce it. The mechanic can sit in the car as it idles and feel it. How is that 'turbo surging'? If an AP fixes this then there has to be something Subaru can do. Another 200 miles and Subaru is hearing from me on this one. I'm going to start doing some research on Lemon laws in Utah. Here is another great reason that I am glad I keep PrePaid Legal around.

[Erickson00]

Do you guys uderstand that the ECU is a learning ECU? By restting the ECU every time the car gets a little stumbly you are not allowing it to learn how to correct whatever it is that is happening. You are just resetting it to the baseline flash with no "learned" information regarding your driving habits...Leave it be with no reset for 1500+ miles and see what happens...

 

No way, dude.

 

I have to keep resetting it just so I don't get embarrassed when I am driving friends around.

 

I drove about 2,000 miles on it before I had them reflash the ECU. 300 miles later, it resumed, only worse this time. So I reset the ECU. Happiness for a week. Now I am going to reset it again, just so I can have happiness for another week.

 

When I bring it back to Subaru, they will keep my car for 3-4 days while they send the ECU to New Jersey for the reflash. Which will help...for another 300 miles, until it relearns its bad behavior.

 

I wish I had bought the Acura.

[OCDetails]

^^^ I keep having the same thoughts. I love the Subie and there is no doubt in my mind that it is a better car, but this stuttering is a deal breaker. The TSX wouldn't have done this. The MS6 wouldn't have done this either. Sure the other cars are no Subaru and don't have the AWD which I really wanted, but they don' t have this godamn stuttering that makes me feel like I'm driving a piece of shit either.

[Brady]

I have to say ... hearing your reactions makes me think I don't have it TOO bad off, since it's not enough to piss me off. Mildly irritate me, maybe, but definitely not piss me off.

[mwiener2]

^^^ I keep having the same thoughts. I love the Subie and there is no doubt in my mind that it is a better car, but this stuttering is a deal breaker. The TSX wouldn't have done this. The MS6 wouldn't have done this either. Sure the other cars are no Subaru and don't have the AWD which I really wanted, but they don' t have this godamn stuttering that makes me feel like I'm driving a piece of shit either.

 

 

 

They also aren't heavily turboed 4's..........

[OCDetails]

If it means my $30,000 dollar car will perform like a $30,000 dollar car then they can have their turbo back. I should have shelled out the money for the 330xi. I haven't ever heard of them having issues like this. All I ever wanted was a sporty and reliable car. I've got the sporty part, but where is the famed Subaru reliability? One of the reasons I bought a Subaru is because they are such high quality cars. This is certianly not my idea of quality.

[yummer]

I have to say ... hearing your reactions makes me think I don't have it TOO bad off, since it's not enough to piss me off. Mildly irritate me, maybe, but definitely not piss me off.

 

It doesn't piss you off that a car with a $25-30k sticker stutters during accelleration? I personally have NEVER driven a car, be it $10k, $20k, or $50k that has such issues when the car was new and ceritifed mechanically "sound" by the dealer. Not only that, but the stuttering problem is WIDESPREAD... not some obscure issue that 1 in 100 cars encounters.

 

Don't even try to tell me that it's the AWD, the turbo, or that I don't know how to drive stick (I owned a turbo AWD Talon w/ 5spd for 10 years without any similar problems).

 

The most troubling thing, I think.. is that SOA hasn't been able to come up with an acceptable FIX for the problem yet.. this seems to indicate (as others have also pointed out) that SOA doesn't yet know the root cause of the problem!

 

I am only crossing my fingers that the stuttering isn't something that will reduce the overall reliability of the vehicle over time... at least nothing too bad before SOA comes out with a real FIX, and not a band aid.

[yummer]

Do you guys uderstand that the ECU is a learning ECU? By restting the ECU every time the car gets a little stumbly you are not allowing it to learn how to correct whatever it is that is happening. You are just resetting it to the baseline flash with no "learned" information regarding your driving habits...Leave it be with no reset for 1500+ miles and see what happens...

 

IMHO it is unacceptable for the vehicle to perform the way it does. Even if it what you say is true and it does take 1500 stuttering miles for the ECU to "learn" around the problem, that would still be unacceptable (10 miles MAYBE, but 1500.. hell no!). FYI, I have never reset my ECU and have had stuttering from day 1 (currently at just under 4k miles).

[OCDetails]

It bends me that I have to break the car in twice. I drove it gently for the first thousand miles, and now I have to drive gently again so it will learn how to operate properly? If the '06 doesn't stutter then neither should the '05. They should do whatever they did to the '05 that causes the '06 not to have this problem. There are '05s out there that don't have this problem, so why not do to ours what they did to the other ones? I'm not holding out hopes for a massive recall or anything. I just want them to fix the problem. COBB can fix it, so why can't Subaru?

[smkscrn]

I have also had the stutter since day 1. Got the SOA reflash and now atleast 2k miles since....and no improvements, so either my LGT's ECU has effin' A.D.D. or maybe since I live in NH, it was bitten by one of those pesky mosquitos that carries Enchephilitis. LOL

 

Got appointment Tuesday for oil change and to bring it (stutter) up AGAIN and I will be persistant....no doubt.

[Deer Killer]

Is anyone still holding out hope?

 

Here's how I see it at this point:

1. It's been almost 1.5 years since the car was released, and it has stuttered since then, and subaru has known about. In fact I remember lurking the boards/nasioc and we'd see previews with the reviewer saying how the engine hesitated, hissed, bucked, etc, and was very unrefined. We all shrugged it off as anti-subaru snobbishness. "It's a boxer, smoother than a inline 4!!" (I've looked for this article again, anyone have a link?) I think even autoweek said on PBS, "anomolous acceleration problems" with the 2005 outback long term update.

 

2. The "fix" is obviously flawed, and is obviously just a map change as they try to smooth out some of these lumps, but the maps aren't the problem anyway. So that tells me subaru just plain doesn't know what is going on or how to fix it. It's probably that Japanese thing again. If you admit that some software engineer in the homeland made a mistake you'd have to fire him, and nobody wants to do that in Japan. Ahh, corporate politics with a Japanese twist.. Is this really a trial program? I mean just letting it get this far.. They probably would have refused to do it anymore after the first few people reported that the "fix" didn't work. I bet they are just doing something to try and appease many pissed of customers, but are doing unpublicised to not acknowledge the problem to the general public, who might have believed things such as "It's just the torque", "That's how a turbo car is", "I wouldn't mind it if it was my car", etc, etc.

 

3. Since I've already paid for the highest depreciation year, it makes no sense to get rid of the car now. I think I'm just going to mod to the gills and drive it like I stole it for a few years. To the audi dealership this time. The car may break but I won't be treated like complete crap by my service manager, we'll probably be on a first name basis.

[OCDetails]

I couldn't take it any longer and I sent an email to Nate Wade in Salt Lake. I love how fast they respond. I don't think it was 12 hours after I sent it before they responded. They want me to bring the car in again so they can see what is going on. It was the service manager that called me back. He called me back the first time too. I love their service department... He is going to save the email I sent and put that into the service notes when I set up the appointment to bring it in. I have a car show next weekend that I need my car all week to prepare for, so I'll have to do it the week of the 26th sometime. I'll let you know what they find out.

[Rubix973]

They also aren't heavily turboed 4's..........

My father has a heavily turboed (bigger than the LGT's) 5 cyl. (volvo S60R) and there is zero studdering. A matter of fact there really is no turbo lag either, but his car was also 15K more than a LGT. I dont think there should be ANY excuses why this car performs this way. I'm pretty much suming it up to a generic engineering flaw. I'm glad I paid almost 30K for a car that seems to be flawed before the motor even starts up the first time...

[smkscrn]

I couldn't take it any longer and I sent an email to Nate Wade in Salt Lake. I love how fast they respond. I don't think it was 12 hours after I sent it before they responded. They want me to bring the car in again so they can see what is going on. It was the service manager that called me back. He called me back the first time too. I love their service department... He is going to save the email I sent and put that into the service notes when I set up the appointment to bring it in. I have a car show next weekend that I need my car all week to prepare for, so I'll have to do it the week of the 26th sometime. I'll let you know what they find out.

 

Would it be too much to ask for a copy of the e-mail that you sent your service department? I am assuming you made such a great point that they could not turn you down......even thought they probably are a great service department.

 

I am also going back to my dealer and would also like to send them an email explaining whats going on.....and would be honored to use yours as a back-bone to creating mine.

 

Let me know - you could PM if you'd like.

 

Joe

[OCDetails]

If I still had it then I would. I sent it through their online form and it didn't send me a copy. I basically just gave them the timeline on when I started seeing problems come back. I also said that if this wasn't something that could be fixed then we need to look at replacing the car under the Utah Lemon Law rules. The law says I have to bring it in and have this issue resolved at least 4 times in the first year in order to qualify as a lemon. They can send that ECM back to New Jersey as many times as they want and it isn't going to fix the problem, but I'll get them to send it back 3 more times in the next 4 months if I have to. I don't mind a bit if it means getting a car that works. They can give me a refund and I'll go buy something else.

[Opie]

Utah's Lemon Law

 

Consumers who buy or lease a new automobile or motor home with significant defects that can't be repaired, or in other words is simply a "lemon," can obtain relief under the Utah New Motor Vehicle Warranties Act or "Lemon Law."

 

The Lemon Law applies to new cars under warranty and was extended in 1990 to also cover new leased vehicles and motor homes. The Lemon Law does NOT apply to used vehicles.

 

For your vehicle to qualify as a "lemon" under the Lemon Law:

 

The vehicle must have been purchased in the state of Utah;

The vehicle must be new and under warranty;

The vehicle must weigh less than 12,000 pounds;

The defect must "substantially impair the use, market value or safety of the vehicle";

The vehicle must have been to the manufacturer to have the same defect resolved at least four times OR out of service to the consumer a total of 30 days DURING the first year or the warranty period, whichever is less (if your problems occur AFTER this time period, you do NOT qualify for the Utah Lemon Law);

The defect cannot be the result of abuse, neglect or unauthorized modifications of the vehicle; AND

The consumer must go through any informal dispute settlement or arbitration procedure the manufacturer may have established.

 

Not sure the stutter really impairs the use, market value or safety of the vehicle...

[OCDetails]

It depends... If this stutter is shortening the life of the car then that is a problem. It becomes a safety problem with the engine surges unexpectedly. Also, it affects the market value when anybody who drives it doesn't want to buy it because it surges. Don't defend the flaw just because you work for Subaru. I'm still hoping they come up with something to fix it once and for all. The 'fix' did work for awhile, so they just need to figure out why it comes back. If they can't and for some reason I can't declare it a Lemon then Subaru has definitely lost a customer. My next car was going to be a Subaru too, but I'm not sure that quality is even a concern for them anymore based on the issues I have with this car. They aren't issues you can find out on a test drive either, so I don't want to hear that I should have done my homework. I did do my homework, but these issues weren't in the book when I was studying.

[Brady]

Listen, smartass ... I said that it must not be as bad on my car, so don't condescend to me that I must be out of my gourd because it doesn't piss me off. Furthermore, the problem may be widespread, but it isn't a unilateral problem as some members have reported no issue at all.

 

I never said it was the AWD or the Turbo ... I know what these are like to drive. I'm in year 4 of driving a Subie. I've driven Just about every Subaru produced in the last 3 years (Tribeca aside at present), and I know this isn't "normal" for these cars.

 

Furthermore, I've been among the most vocal in stating that I think the new revision for the ECU is a waste of time, advising in numerous threads against wasting one's time with sending the ECU to New Jersey until a better fix is offered or dealers can do it same day - on site. I was disappointed in the almost complete lack of change after I had it reflashed. But at the same time, in my car, it isn't severe enough to be problematic, nor does it lead me to believe that any undue wear is being incurred. The little amount of surging occurring certainly isn't any harder on the engine than a Stage 1 reflash from Cobb would be.

 

Capiche?

 

 

It doesn't piss you off that a car with a $25-30k sticker stutters during accelleration? I personally have NEVER driven a car, be it $10k, $20k, or $50k that has such issues when the car was new and ceritifed mechanically "sound" by the dealer. Not only that, but the stuttering problem is WIDESPREAD... not some obscure issue that 1 in 100 cars encounters.

 

Don't even try to tell me that it's the AWD, the turbo, or that I don't know how to drive stick (I owned a turbo AWD Talon w/ 5spd for 10 years without any similar problems).

 

The most troubling thing, I think.. is that SOA hasn't been able to come up with an acceptable FIX for the problem yet.. this seems to indicate (as others have also pointed out) that SOA doesn't yet know the root cause of the problem!

 

I am only crossing my fingers that the stuttering isn't something that will reduce the overall reliability of the vehicle over time... at least nothing too bad before SOA comes out with a real FIX, and not a band aid.

[ilh]

Got my car back after the SOA reflash. I had it stuttering within a minute of leaving the dealership. After driving for 30-45 minutes, it seems like it might be getting smoother, but I am not sure if this is just the placebo effect. It will be interesting to see how things go for 1000-1500 miles while the ECU continues to learn.

 

My idle is definitely considerably less smooth than the 2.5i loaner I had. Should I expect that?

 

--Lee

[smkscrn]

My idle is awful as well....and Im not sure where in the country you are, but where I am (NH), the mornings are starting to get colder (50's) and the car's idle shakes like some white trash fool crossed-up every single plug wire to the distributor in his 1980 f250 rust-box........ugh, cant wait til I bring this car in tomorrow AGAIN to dealership.

 

joe

[intercede007]

I've read through this thread and the other closed "stuttering" issue thread and I have a couple questions that I don't think have been addressed very deeply.

 

I have 497 miles on my LGT and it "stutters" exactly as everyone here has described. But it's the manner in which it does it that has me questioning the root cause.

 

If I am easy and smooth on the clutch in 1st and 2nd gear, the power comes on smooth as glass. If I dump the clutch a little fast and hop on the gas, the car bucks. If I am in 2nd gear and I just nail the throttle, the car bucks. I can be in any gear and smoothly apply the throttle and the car preforms perfectly.

 

Now I'm not presuming anything, so please nobody get offended. And by all means there is certainly something wrong with a car that feels like it would rather play hopscotch than accelerate...

 

But is this a clutch and flywheel issue and not so much an ECU issue? It almost feels like the car is using a *super* lightweight flywheel (if anybody has ever driven something like a modified Civic with a lightened flywheel, they know exactly what I mean). I'd almost like to put an extra 3lbs on the thing and see if that smooths out the powerband a bit when getting hard on the gas.

 

I haven't seen anybody say that LGT's in other markets display the problem. Do Aussie and Japanesse market cars do the same thing? Is this a uniquely US market problem?

 

Perhaps I just haven't searched far enough through the threads and it's already been discussed, but I thought I'd just pose the clutch and flywheel theory and see what people have to say.

 

Thanks for all the great information guys!

Jon

[laz]

^^^ so are you saying it may be more a style of driving as opposed to the car having a malfunction? I recently started to feel it a little bit as well, mostly on second gear as I decelerate and accelerate withouth going out of second as in very slow moving traffic. When I get down to 2K and start accelerating I feel it most and it just makes me punch the gas harder to get out of it. It almost feels like if it was an old car and it had dirt getting stuck in the filter while accelerating hard.

 

Just my 2 C's.

 

X

[OCDetails]

If it was just my driving then it wouldn't have gone away after they sent the ECM to NJ to be reflashed. No, there is definitely something else going on. An AP reflash has been known to reslove the problem to a great extent as well.

[ilh]

I too mostly notice it in traffic in 2nd. It seems to vary a lot. About once on my hour commute I'll get one stutter that is more like shuddering/bucking, but most are fairly mild. Still, I don't think the car should do this.

 

I mostly notice it on light/moderate throttle. Going uphill and/or having AC on helps it to occur. I think the longer you are accelerating in the 2300-3500 range the more likely you are to get a stutter/the more stutters you will see.

 

If I drive at constant speed at 2500rpm, it feels to me like I get occasional "misses", both with and without cruise control.

 

I don't think my ECU reflash has done much for me. I'm about 200-300 miles past reflash at this point.

 

I don't know if this is related, but the dealer replaced the intercooler on my car because its fins were damaged before I bought it. Could they have screwed something up installing the intercooler (leak?) the could contribute to this problem?

 

--Lee