ECU/Stuttering Follow-Ups

[Blaze]

If you listen carefully, SOA is basically saying it does happen with all LGT's.

 

If that's the case, I wonder why they would have a VIN range available for reflash...unless this VIN range encompasses all the '05 LGT's. I think I'm one of the lucky ones that do not experience this problem with their LGT (I have an auto tranny)....or at least maybe it happens so rarely that I don't notice it (but by the descriptions I've followed in this long thread, it sounds like I would KNOW when it's happening). The last many months since catching the thread, I've been on the lookout for the stuttering issue.

[waterdish]

Update: I just drove with a senior tech this morning at 8am. Before we went out, he plugged in a diagnostic tool to read a number and then faxed it NJ. I was very happy about this. He said the first thing they will ask if he calls the tech line is for this number... So we go out for a drive and it stutters like I knew it would...

 

 

He tells me that its a characteristic of the car and that all there turbo cars do that. So I tell him, lets go take a auto GT out and I bet it won't do the same thing... he says that’s a completely different design . I said well that makes my point even more clear and narrows it even closer to the Legacy GT MT. He didn't know what to say to that and then changed his story and said its just my car... but then at another point in the conversation he said we could go take any MT GT out and it would stutter. So, there fully aware of the problem! But, Instead of calling it a problem or even a slight inconvenience there calling it “normal” and “characteristic”

 

 

The Reason no one is complaining about this other then the enthusiasts is the fact that from day one test drive there telling people it’s a characteristic of the new turbo cars. This simple fact here is why a lot of dealers don’t know about the issue nor want to look into it. Think about if every car came back to get a re-flash. 3 day loners to everyone… the time and $$$ would be NUTS.

 

 

He said, do you want me to completely re-engineer the whole car? I said no, I love the car, I just want you to call SOA tech line and see that the problem is real. He said that he would waste 20-30 minutes - part of a whole day on the phone with them for something that isn’t there. He told me the papers that the service advisor and manager showed me yesterday was EVERYTHING from SOA and there is nothing for the 05 Legacy NOTHING… I don’t know what I have to do to get them to pick up the damn phone and call…

 

 

He said to me. Do you know what forums are? I said yes, there places to post messages and discuss topics with other people. After I said that he didn’t say anything. I don’t know where he was trying to go with that… but… I couldn’t believe how much they frown upon these messages boards.

 

 

At this point I’m pretty much pissed off. I am a professional and always act it in dealings like this. I tried to explain to him how it’s the principal of the matter now and that I didn’t like how I was treated AT ALL.

 

 

He went off telling me stories about how some new transmission in 95 didn't shift right “but that’s just was that cars characteristic” and he didn’t think it was right but now he owns one... First off, it had nothing to do with my issue and every time I said it was a problem he would correct me and say "its not a problem, Dave" its a characteristic... well again, knowing I wouldn't get anywhere we went inside to see if there was a fax back from SOA and there wasn't any so I left and did some shopping then I decided to just drive home. Its about a 1/2 hour drive to the dealer...

 

 

As it sits now, we are still in good terms. I said I loved my experience there for the sell and there Business Manager was awesome. She helped me out so much! I love all the sales people and I don’t want to ruin my relationship with my Service Department and that Everything that I had issues with was fixed with out question nor incident. We’ll see what happens…

 

 

Still no calls so I’m just waiting now. I hope SOA pulls through for me… and teaches these people a lesson.

[waterdish]

Update 2: Called SOA and updated my case. About 15 mins later the Dealer called me and told that yes my car qualifies for the fix and I will be dropping off the car Tuesday Morning of next week. They will be shipping it NJ for the re-flash.

 

Also, there getting me a rental through Enterprise because I’m not 25. So I get to drive around some POS and not a subby but either way I have wheels.

 

 

 

WOW, what a different tone of voice he had on this call back!

 

 

 

I feel a lot better now and I'm glad I won this one! Still is a piss off the way I was treated but that whole damn service department and techs feel like idiots because of all the BS excuses. Cause "some kid" getting information from message boards knew more then they did and had to explain to them how to do there job.... Definitely was a educational day for my dealer showing that one person can make a difference if you fight a little bit!

 

 

 

I’m just happy it worked out exactly how you awesome guys set everything up for me to basically just hand to them.

 

 

 

THANKS TO EVERYONE!!! I will keep you guys updated after my re-flash next week!

[deimos]

Has anybody from Canada had any luck with the Studdering issue, all i get is "no problem - normal operation" from my dealer like the above poster. It drives me nuts...If anyone has had any luck with this in Canada please PM me.

[waterdish]

First notice that I am in Canada and there is no TSB nor email of any kind here as far as I know.

 

I showed the info from Opie to my local tech manager and he showed it to someone in Subaru Canada. That was about a month ago.

 

Last week, he called me saying that he can do the reflash AT THE DEALERSHIP! But he had to return the device that makes the reflash very soon and couldn't keep it for now (?????).

 

Anyway, I had it reflashed and a few days later, I am very happy I did.

The engine feels a lot smoother, the stutter has been diminished by ~ 80% (which is ok to me) and the car feels as powerful as before.

 

Anyone else with reflash in Canada?

 

Yes Dr. GT

[TSiWRX]

waterdish -

 

Good for you! Glad you got this resolved, and I hope the fix goes well for you. Please let us know how things turn out, and I truly wish you the best.

 

----

 

Deer Killer -

 

At your urging, I did re-think this for a bit, and you know what, I agree, by connotation, perhaps SoA is saying "all" MY04/MY05 2005 LGTs. Certainly, it's what "it sounds like."

 

However, as Blaze cited, then why the VIN-range?

 

A side question, of course, is whether or not that VIN-range is known - it certainly could be all of us - but if not, then by all means, this means that it is a more isolated problem.

 

As with some others here, either my butt-dyno is too thick to notice my LGT "studdering/stuttering," or I'm simply lucky. I'd like to believe the latter (despite my butt-dyno truly being out-of-tune), as on a ride-along with a neighbor, his new LGT certainly exhibited a noticeable "hickup" in power delivery between 2K and 3K rpm that I was not used to seeing in Winky.

 

If I didn't so shun dealer service-department contact, I'd actually be very tempted to find out if my VIN is covered under this "not quite a recall, recall," as Winky's build date is June/04.

[eles1]

The dealer's diagnostic currently would not be able to detect the Accessport (or ECUtek, etc) had been installed...however if the reflash center runs a full inspection of the ECM before they reflash it they will be able to tell as anytime programming info is "re-written" it changes a checksum value in the ECM. Not sure if they really check though as they are flashing them.

 

We've been over this about a hundred times between this forum and NASIOC... The only way a dealer would be able to detect a re-flash via checksum values is if you were foolish enough to leave the aftermarket programming in when you took it to the dealer... Trey himself stated that the checksum value returns to its original condition when the AP is divorced from the ECU.

 

If I didn't so shun dealer service-department contact, I'd actually be very tempted to find out if my VIN is covered under this "not quite a recall, recall," as Winky's build date is June/04.

 

My dealer checked everywhere but couldn't find a specific list of VIN's from SOA that defined which cars were eligible for the fix and which weren't. The service manager simply told me "if it stutters, they'll fix it". He advised me to wait a bit because they should have the modules to load the new programming themselves within a few weeks. I'm sure he was just trying to get out of giving up a loaner car, but quite frankly, I don't mind waiting a bit. It's not that big of a deal and the "fix" doesn't seem to be all that great anyhow.

[TSiWRX]

Bro eles1 -

 

Very interesting to note - thas that would definitely make it seem even more like SoA expects this of "all MY04/05 2005 LGTs." Very interesting indeed....

 

I kept searching through the original "Stuttering/Studdering" threads, but also failed to come up with any citation of exactly what "range" of VINs were/are affected.

[waterdish]

SOA basically will handle this on a case by case basis from what they told me. They said that until there is a 100% fix they won’t release the information to the dealers and customers. So apparently and as we know Subaru does have a patch for this but I guess its not exactly what they want so until then no one will be officially contacted. This does make a lot of sense. Why have everyone flock to the dealer when this is just a patch. But, for those of us that has it bad enough there offering the patch.

 

The senior tech also told me there rolling out a whole new system for every dealer, wireless laptops, new diagnostic equipment and he told me the same thing that they will be able to do it in a week or two themselves. Also, they will get updates (through probably a secure internet connection) overnight on everything. Bye bye fax, letters, e-mails. There new system seems very impressive. I can’t wait for the day I drive up to my house and my car picks up my wireless router and downloads the updates itself. This isn’t that far off….

 

As far as the VIN's I honestly believe them when they say they don't know. I believe like mentioned before. Its probably for all of them. Some are worst then others.

[OCDetails]

I don't know if that will be a good thing.... I've come back to my computer in the morning several times to find that windows rebooted after doing an automatic update. The last thing I need is for my car to not want to go anywhere because it is receiving an 2 gig update or something. I think this scenario would suddenly seem more likely if cars went in that direction.

[eles1]

Bro eles1 -

 

Very interesting to note - thas that would definitely make it seem even more like SoA expects this of "all MY04/05 2005 LGTs." Very interesting indeed....

 

I kept searching through the original "Stuttering/Studdering" threads, but also failed to come up with any citation of exactly what "range" of VINs were/are affected.

 

Either that, or they don't really know for certain which variable (or interaction of variables) is truly responsible yet, so they just apply some "generic" techniques to smooth out and improve driveability for those who complain.

 

After 9+ years in product design, I can tell you that the cause of a given issue is not always obvious - in fact, it almost never is. The fact that they may have some techniques that minimize the response doesn't prove that they truly understand the problem and its root cause.

[waterdish]

I don't know if that will be a good thing.... I've come back to my computer in the morning several times to find that windows rebooted after doing an automatic update. The last thing I need is for my car to not want to go anywhere because it is receiving an 2 gig update or something. I think this scenario would suddenly seem more likely if cars went in that direction.

 

Haha, well true. Just don't let microsoft get involved and everything will be fine haha

[waterdish]

Either that, or they don't really know for certain which variable (or interaction of variables) is truly responsible yet, so they just apply some "generic" techniques to smooth out and improve driveability for those who complain.

 

After 9+ years in product design, I can tell you that the cause of a given issue is not always obvious - in fact, it almost never is. The fact that they may have some techniques that minimize the response doesn't prove that they truly understand the problem and its root cause.

 

Exactly why they don’t want to make it easy or official to find out Its really a weird situation.

[Brady]

A couple of reasons they don't want to make it official.

 

First off, as has been noted, the dealers should soon get the computers to update ECU's on-site. I don't think it's as soon as the couple weeks as some have noted, but it could be. So they might as well not bother issuing a recall on an issue that isn't a safety or dependability issue yet, and affects some owners to varying degrees. I remember on my old RS, they were able to do some ECU updates on site, and did so on regular maintenance visits. It was no big deal and one very unusual check engine code completely went away. Nothing ever wrong with the car, but an odd set of condtions which I experienced a few times would trip the CEL (Decelerating in 5th or 4th gear off throttle at approx. 45 mph on level pavement or slight down hill at standard operating temperature, usually just before the shift from 5th to 4th).

 

Second, it still isn't an issue for many people. Meaning, they just don't notice it. The first time I felt it, I just figured it was related to a little wastegate flutter or something. And if 80-90 percent of the LGT owner population haven't noticed it, or don't care, I can't see any reason for them to issue a TSB or recall on it. Really, it just raises costs for all of us owners in passed on costs of future vehicles or service costs. I'd prefer they DON'T issue a recall until they can do it in-house.

 

As for it being on a case by case basis, it's possible that there truly are some cars that don't do this. The select monitor or whatever it is that they use to scan the ECU needs to show some kind of code for them to offer the update. I haven't heard of anyone being refused yet (once they have actually gotten their dealer to call the SOA tech line and learn how to properly diagnose the situation), but it's not to say that there aren't some vehicles that don't react this way.

 

And finally, why dealers dislike the forums is because particularly with the WRX's, people would go over to Nabisco or ClubWRX or some other forum and print off a list of TSB's and want all of these things fixed, even if their car didn't qualify. This would be the equivalent of me taking my car in because there is a TSB for the carpet hook now. Well, my car isn't in the affected range, because it was built after the update and already has the new carpet hook. It happens quite a bit, so they're naturally a bit skeptical at first. It helps when it's a good and known customer who brings the issue to them first. I honestly don't think my dealership would have gotten as far as they did if someone other than myself had come in for the same thing. I personally know the service manager, and I still had to convince him. It's not too often you have to call the Tech line for an update, they usually just offer a TSB. So this is an unusual circumstance, and probably for a lot of good reasons as I've stated.

[Deer Killer]

He said to me. Do you know what forums are? I said yes, there places to post messages and discuss topics with other people. After I said that he didn’t say anything. I don’t know where he was trying to go with that… but… I couldn’t believe how much they frown upon these messages boards.

Internet=communication=knowledge=power. Do you think any corporation wants you to have power over them? Their sole intention is to make a profit. You understanding serious flaws in their product leading them to expend money to make you go away and not get sued = less profit.

 

Someday places like this will be illegal. Many corporations have already tried. Disclose a flaw in a corporation's product and they come after you with something bogus like the DMCA, copyright violation, violation of trade secrets. Maybe they'll even charge some of us with computer trespass or hacking. Trespass on your own ECU.

 

Not to worry, places like this have a limited lifespan as we give away our democracy.

[Brady]

Deer Killer -

 

Copyright violation is a very different animal than the free flow of information. Copyright violation is an act of illegal distibution, dissemination, or use of Intellectual Property. Which is to say that it has to be "property" for it to be illegal. We are talking about the free flow of "Ideas". Ideas can be thoughts without ownership, evidence, or original private source such as "I think my car has a case of the hiccups" or "I took my car to the dealer for speech therapy ... Stuttering has been reduced."

 

Please ... I like this forum. Don't make us sound like imbicilic primates overreacting to an invasion by the four-eyed freaks.

[Deer Killer]

Deer Killer -

 

Copyright violation is a very different animal than the free flow of information.

Since when did principle prevent something from happening? If subaru were to do something, it would hardly be setting a new precedent, there are plenty out there if you care to look.

[Brady]

It would be setting a new precedent. The other forums that have been shut down either did infringe upon Copyrights or Trademarks. Clubs "like" ours cannot be shut down, but clubs that specifically infringe upon either Trademarks or copyrights can be shut down. For example, we could be shut down for using the name "Legacy GT" in our site name, but we could not be shut down if we were "LGT.Com" or "ClubLGT" which Subaru does not have a trademark on. You have to know your law, amigo.

 

Also, "Nasioc" is safe because it employs aspects that are covered under Public Domain.

[Deer Killer]

You have to know your law, amigo.

Again, it does not matter. Simply the threat of legal action is enough.

[Brady]

Well, just got my car back. I was hoping that those who said it wasn't a fix were over-reacting, but sadly they were not.

 

Still very obvious at points in the powerband. I think I feel it pretty consistently around 4,000 rpm. It does seem smoother between idle and 2,000 rpm though. Unfortunately, I don't do a lot of driving in that range, so I won't really notice it except when accelerating out of first. :-/

 

I honestly wouldn't recommend going to the trouble of getting this update to anyone until at least the dealers can do it themselves. 3 days in a rental car sucked, and the change was minimal.

 

Oh well. On to other things.

[Opie]

I've said this once and will now repeat it....

 

There is not an affected VIN range for this reflash. It is based on the ECM's CID (Calibration Identification Number), that is the number the techs are pulling off your ECM's to fax in. If the CID is one of the affected CID's your ECM will get a reflash to the newer CID #.

 

It does not affect all LGT's, only the one's with the identified CID #'s. At the same time the new flash was released it also became the default flash for all new LGT's being produced.

 

The reflash was never said to be a fix for the hesitation...the exact wording was:

We now have reprogramming available for 2005 Legacy Turbo to reduce the surging feeling during moderate acceleration and for code P2097.

Notice it says "reduce" not remove.

 

Those who have gotten the reflash need to give the car a chance for the ECM to "relearn" your driving habits before you make up your mind on wether the reflash is an improvment or not. It's not going to be immeadiate. Just as my "surging" lessened over time after I got the car new, now since the reflash my car seems better and better the more miles I put on it (only about 500 miles so far). Currently my "surging" is so minimal I really have to pay attention to feel it.

[TSiWRX]

Opie,

 

Ah! NOW I really understand.

 

Thank you for that clarification. Sorting through all those pages from the other thread truly made my head spin, and I must have somehow missed your explaination.

 

Thanks!

[Brady]

Perhaps, Opie, but I put a ton of miles on my car, so I probably already have 70 miles on it. Now I know that isn't huge, but you've had your reflash for a couple weeks, I've had mine for a couple hours. I'll have more miles on my reflash by the end of next week than you will. Point being that I've not yet noticed any real reduction in the surging ... I've only noticed the the Idle - 2000 rpm range change. The fact that I've noticed one thing leads me to believe that I should be feeling some effect in other areas affected. I'll update later next week, but for now I stand by my previous comment that for the hassle involved, it wasn't worth getting it done.

[kevjam79]

Those who have gotten the reflash need to give the car a chance for the ECM to "relearn" your driving habits before you make up your mind on wether the reflash is an improvment or not. It's not going to be immeadiate. Just as my "surging" lessened over time after I got the car new, now since the reflash my car seems better and better the more miles I put on it (only about 500 miles so far). Currently my "surging" is so minimal I really have to pay attention to feel it.

 

I totally agree. I was at first hesitant to post a review of the reflash but now that the car has had sufficient time to relearn throttle position and duration. It has greatly improved to almost negate all surging. I have yet to feel any surging in the past 2 weeks. And before it was really bad in my LGT. I could get surging in every gear and many different speeds. The new maps seemed to handle a wider variety of driving styles and possibly a wider variety of intake temps and engine loading (AC On, for example). The car is much smoother in many ways, especailly idle. I was also using the following technique: if I felt the surging in first few weeks - I would back off of the accelerator and repeat the same acceleration until the car smoothed out - which it did. I was trying to get the computer to recognize the choppy nature of the fuel delivery, timing and the vaccum to boost transition to help change the maps. It has seemed to have helped.

[emlevins]

I posted my first review of the fix after 400 miles. I now have about 600 post-flash miles on the OD. No change from my previous review. Pearl still studders...it is just a kinder, gentler studder and seemingly less frequent. Power deliver continues to be a bit smoother than pre-fix.