ECU/Stuttering Follow-Ups

[smkscrn]

Food for thought:

 

Originally posted by: Bu11dogg2

 

By "studder" I assume you mean "boost spike" most turbo cars will have these. But pulling out your whole ECU to fix it? thats crazy!! you need to go to Manchester Subaru or anyother dealer these guys are nuts!! Also a BC will take care of your "studder" by upping or lowering the gain.

 

A boost spike is a very fast, very temporary, "power surge" by the turbo. I am 99% percent sure that is what you are feeling, Does it always happen while the turbo is spooled? if the stock PSI is 17, when it spikes it puts out like 22PSI for a split second. The stock setup in our cars cant handle 22PSI so the waste gate opens and relieves all the pressure off the engine causing a sort of "vacuum leak" which in turn causes the "studder" or as its technically reffered to as a Boost spike. What causes this? To honest I dont know yet what the subaru's issue is. A Reflash should cure it. A reflash simply reprograms your ECU to run slightly different than before AIR/FUEL. there for eliminating the "studder". My car is brand new and yes I have already felt it, not to the extent that you describe though, I havent gotten on it yet though.

 

A "BC" is a Boost Controller, allows you to control the boost and gain of your turbo. I eliminated my Boost spikes on my old car by upping and lowering the gain.

[emlevins]

Food for thought:

 

Originally posted by: Bu11dogg2

 

By "studder" I assume you mean "boost spike" most turbo cars will have these. QUOTE]

 

Well, I have had turbo cars since 1990 (90 Eagle Talon Tsi, 91 Dodge Stealth twin turbo, 95 Eagle Talon Tsi, 02 WRX) and I have NEVER experienced this phenomenon with any of those other vehicles.

 

Perhaps it was there and not noticeable but I doubt it. Perhaps I was just lucky but I doubt it. Most turbo cars have this studder? I doubt it.

[Opie]

A "BC" is a Boost Controller, allows you to control the boost and gain of your turbo. I eliminated my Boost spikes on my old car by upping and lowering the gain.

 

A "Boost Controller" will affect your factory warranty.

 

A "Reflash" will not.

[dbolen]

Folks,

 

Adventure Subaru in Fayetteville Ar. last week. Called ahead and they knew about the reflash. Took the car in Tues and it was ready on Friday.

 

Picked it up Monday morning and drove to work...WTF?? It seemed absolutely no

different! As the week progressed though things have improved quite well.

 

I can still cause the studder, by rarely. Power "feels" up, but not really sure.

After a fillup yesterday, I am seeing more avg mpg than before, even though I am testing the "slowness" thing.

 

How can you tell for *sure* that they reflashed it? Radio channels were not lost

and didn't need any sort of reprograming on the key fobs. The service manager

mad some comment about it not being the ECU, but the ECM?...BCM? Engine Control Module?

 

I *still* have a weird idle that crops up on the way to work tho...

 

Cheers, dave

[km580]

OK Folks, it's my turn at the service dept. I stopped in last week and spoke to the service mgr. and explained the situatio with the studdering. The first question was "Did you get this off of the internet?" He was polite about it though. I told him ye and that the problem is real. He told me to drop it off. I left it there this morning and he called me back about 2:30 and said that there were no trouble codes and that thye drove it and found no problems. I told him that that seems to be the case and that Tech Line would know what to do. He spoke to them and called me back shortly and said that I was right and that they had to pull the ECU and ship it out. They said that it should be ready for pick up by Friday. He was very polite and friendly. I'll post the results when I get the car back. Oh and BTW, no loaner car, he said they were all out:( This was at Wyoming Valley Motors in Kingston Pa. This is the second legacy I have bought fro them and they have always been great.

[OCDetails]

I posted my first review of the fix after 400 miles. I now have about 600 post-flash miles on the OD. No change from my previous review. Pearl still studders...it is just a kinder, gentler studder and seemingly less frequent. Power deliver continues to be a bit smoother than pre-fix.

 

That is my experience so far too. About 500 miles on since the reflash. Things were pretty good for the first 300, then it started coming back. Idle has gotten a little jumpy again and I can feel the stutter when accelerating between 3 and 4 thousand RPMs. I can't say that it is as bad as it was before, but the fix went from 80% solved down to about 30% solved. Still, any improvment is an improvement. I'll take what I can get. I really want this SOB sorted out. I might have to tallk to my COBB friendly dealer and ask what they would say if I installed an AP solely to fix the problem. If I can get it on paper that they approved the install for stuttering reasons, then I would wager that I could fight any warranty service denial in the future due to the AP.

[mwiener2]

I think they should just start swaping in STi ECU's, Turbos, Injectors, Manifolds, IC's and all that jazz. Bump up our stock rating to 300,300. And call it a day.

[km580]

OK Folks, it's my turn at the service dept. I stopped in last week and spoke to the service mgr. and explained the situatio with the studdering. The first question was "Did you get this off of the internet?" He was polite about it though. I told him ye and that the problem is real. He told me to drop it off. I left it there this morning and he called me back about 2:30 and said that there were no trouble codes and that thye drove it and found no problems. I told him that that seems to be the case and that Tech Line would know what to do. He spoke to them and called me back shortly and said that I was right and that they had to pull the ECU and ship it out. They said that it should be ready for pick up by Friday. He was very polite and friendly. I'll post the results when I get the car back. Oh and BTW, no loaner car, he said they were all out:( This was at Wyoming Valley Motors in Kingston Pa. This is the second legacy I have bought from them and they have always been great.

Well it's back, a day sooner than they said. I drove it home and it does run better. The idle is smoother and it feels slightly quicker. The studder is un-noticable but I think it's still there a little. I'll have to put some real miles on it to be sure though.

[waterdish]

Hey Guys, I just picked my car up as well. Still studders while cold but idle does seem better and power delivery is alot more smooth. It feels good. No stutter on the highway. Hope it stays that way.

 

I don't think Im going to spend any more time worrying about it this until there are either new ECM's or a "real" fix.

 

Just going to go for the AP now.

[Euclid]

I just got my car back from Nate Wade Subaru (same dealer OCD took his). I took the car in Tuesday morning, they gave me an 05 outback 2.5i loaner car. All with 0 hassle. Mind you I didn't really have the stuttering as much as some of you, but I heard the reflash improves throttle response so I figured it couldn't hurt. I've only driven the car home from the dealership which is about 10 miles or so, but throttle response seems to be "smoothed" out. I'll have to give it several hundred miles to see if this is just placebo affect or not.

[waterdish]

Also to add, I had a toyota camery as my loner and wow my gt feels so good compared to that thing. I don't see how people could stand driving one of those around

[jaycee]

Just wanted to comment on the view that the stuttering happens on all '05 MT GTs...

 

I've watched this and related threads for a while and have tried a number of times to duplicate the stuttering problems folks have cited. I've tried a number of RPM ranges, different gears, little/medium/lots of throttle, hilly/flat terrain, 0 to 3 passengers and I cannot get it to stutter or surge as folks have described. Maybe I just lucked out.

 

I feel for the folks that have this problem and I hope they have a fix for you soon but I'm pretty confident that all '05 MT GTs do NOT have this problem. I think mine's a June '04 manufacture. Maybe the ECU CID god was smiling on my car the day it rolled off the assembly line.

[OCDetails]

I'm at 575 miles post "fix" and everything is back the way it was. The car shakes when it idles and the stutter is most felt in 4th gear durring acceleration past 50 mph between 3000 and 4000 RPM. The fix didn't work very long.

[waterdish]

Im going to have to agree. Im no where near those miles and the symptoms are coming back. Not sure what to say... Im a bit disappointed.

[SBT]

We'll I'm about 1500 miles post reflash and I can say that while the smoothness remains, the car continues to get stronger and exhibits almost no shudder. Case-in-point tonight on a drive out to the local mountains, I was rolling at about 60-ish mph and just about 2.8K on the tach in fifth gear. Went from light throttle @ 2.8K to mid-throttle transition (the point where I normally start getting significant sudder) and the car just accelerated smoothly.

 

There was a second of turbo lag (and I know what this is), but no jerk, no stammer, nothing, just completely smooth acceleration. Previously, the car would have bucked for several consecutive seconds or until I released the gas pedal and then reapplied but not this time.

 

Rolling along at light throttle on surface streets and then applying moderate, mid-way throttle inputs produces no studder. Again, just a momentary turbo lag, but none of the fits and spits that I was used to before the reflash.

 

Whomever said that the ECU needs to relearn after the reflash is probably correct. I would presume this is similar to any 05 Legacy ECU reset, even a manual one that you invoke yourself. The car just smoothes out all across the rev line. Also, I tried, at least for the first 500 miles after the reflash, to keep the rpms under 4K just to see if that helped the reflash relearn/grown in knowledge. Seems to have worked.

 

SBT

[OCDetails]

I'm going to give it a full 1000 miles before I go back to the dealership about this, but I am very disappointed in what is going on at this point. It has gone from 80% fixed down to probably 10% or lower fixed in a very short time. I expect that in another week my car will be as bad as it was before I took it in. I just hope it doesn't continue to decline beyond that...

[DrGT]

I'm going to give it a full 1000 miles before I go back to the dealership about this, but I am very disappointed in what is going on at this point. It has gone from 80% fixed down to probably 10% or lower fixed in a very short time. I expect that in another week my car will be as bad as it was before I took it in. I just hope it doesn't continue to decline beyond that...

 

I am about 500 km post reflash. I had exactly the same experience : from very satisfied to (at least) mildly disappointed...

[smkscrn]

I am about 1500 miles post reflash. My LGT 5MT went from smooth and mild improvements within the first few days, to definitely noticeable again. I wouldn't go as far to say it is just as bad as pre-flash, however the rough idle is clearly back and has been for some time, but it definitely wasn't there within the first week post-reflash.....that was one of the first things I noticed and was psyched about.

 

I am calling my dealer on MONDAY 9/12, who handled everything great when I first brought my LGT in for the issue, and will tell them that the car seemed much improved over the first 500 miles or so and has declined since and is just about back to before I got the ECU re-flash.

 

I wonder how they will re-act now? This is getting annoying......afterall, I sold my '97 civic because I was sick and tired of dealing with "issues"...hmmm.

 

Joe

[emlevins]

I have to agree with the majority. I now have approximately 800 post flash miles and I am beginning to notice a deterioration. It seems as if the stutter is more frequent and more intense than it was even 200 miles ago. Still better than it was stock, but not as good as it was immediately after the reflash.

[Peale]

I have about 1000 miles from when I had it "fixed" and it has never really gotten

any better. I'm working hard with the service rep to get this resolved.

 

My family came to visit two weeks ago, so I've been driving with 5 people in the car

for about two weeks. The hesitation was extremely bad in the beginning, particularly in 2nd gear. Now (alone again) the car drives almost without any problems. It seems that for the engine to learn it has to experience severe studdering which is easier to produce when the car is heavily loaded.

 

Now, the frustrating part is that I am scheduled to meet with the Subaru district manager about this problem, but I can't recreate it now. Hopefully it will come back again .

 

/t

[ilh]

I just left my 5MT with Village Subaru in Acton, MA this morning. The ECU is being sent to SOA. Apparently they have done this at least once already at this dealer and the result was successful. Hopefully mine will be successful too.

 

(My build date is Feb 2005, and I have mild/moderate stuttering in the 2300-3300 range going from idle throttle to light/mid throttle, mostly in 2nd and 3rd, and it has been there since the beginning. I'm at 5,000 miles now.)

 

--Lee

 

PS: The 2.5i auto Legacy loaner is really underpowered compared to my GT!

[OCDetails]

The result is successful for about 500 miles. Then it starts coming back. The idle problems come back around 600 miles and by 700 you won't even know that anything has changed. It isn't a very long lasting fix, but it is nice to drive the car and have it perform like you were told it would when you bought it.

 

And you are right.... the 2.5i is nothing like the GT. It's like driving a Civic dressed up like a Legacy. lol

[Erickson00]

I've said this once and will now repeat it....

 

There is not an affected VIN range for this reflash. It is based on the ECM's CID (Calibration Identification Number), that is the number the techs are pulling off your ECM's to fax in. If the CID is one of the affected CID's your ECM will get a reflash to the newer CID #.

 

It does not affect all LGT's, only the one's with the identified CID #'s. At the same time the new flash was released it also became the default flash for all new LGT's being produced.

 

The reflash was never said to be a fix for the hesitation...the exact wording was:

 

Notice it says "reduce" not remove.

 

Those who have gotten the reflash need to give the car a chance for the ECM to "relearn" your driving habits before you make up your mind on wether the reflash is an improvment or not. It's not going to be immeadiate. Just as my "surging" lessened over time after I got the car new, now since the reflash my car seems better and better the more miles I put on it (only about 500 miles so far). Currently my "surging" is so minimal I really have to pay attention to feel it.

 

My car is the opposite. I had the reflashing performed, and the car was great for about 300 miles. It got steadily worse after that, especially with the AC on. Rough idle, surging in any gear between 2k and 4k RPM (even surging/bucking behavior in 1st gear up to 2,500 RPM), and just unacceptable feel during acceleration. The car feels like it's driving cold in all three lower gears, when driving slowly.

 

I reset the ECU by disconnecting the battery and tapping on the brakes. This fixed the problem, and the car felt normal again.

 

Now that I have put almost 300 miles on it since I disconnected the battery, it is starting to surge, buck, and stutter again. It's embarrassing. My friend's Hyundai drives smoother than my LGT.

 

I am taking it back to the dealership, and I will KEEP bringing it back until this is completely fixed. They'll get tired of seeing me, but I won't settle for below average performance for a car that is supposed to be on par with an Audi or Acura.

[smkscrn]

Ericson00^^

 

Well stated. I completely agree with the way this car performs, and the acceptability of a 30grand automobile, which is suposed to be a "performance" vehicle.

 

My sister drives an 05 Acura TSX and its a 4cyl and it is SO smooth during acceleration, even though it only has 200hp, it still accelerates like it should.

 

If our LGT's accelerated/felt the way hers does with our 250hp turbo.....wheeeeew.

 

I have an appointment next Tues at dealership to get oil changed and idle/stutter issue brought to the table again....we'll see how it goes.

 

Joe

[Opie]

Do you guys uderstand that the ECU is a learning ECU? By restting the ECU every time the car gets a little stumbly you are not allowing it to learn how to correct whatever it is that is happening. You are just resetting it to the baseline flash with no "learned" information regarding your driving habits...Leave it be with no reset for 1500+ miles and see what happens...