gt_ltd Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 back to the original question... i do not "hate" my 5EAT (actually i like it when i am stuck in traffic or when the cold weather makes it hard to shift until everything is warm enuff), i just wish it would react faster when i am in manual mode. This Space For Rent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 FYI: Most cars right now have an automatic gearbox with a manual override control either with the gear lever or buttons on the steering wheel. This is still a regular automatic transmission. Porsche Tiptronic is one of the first. Automatic transmissions have become a lot more effecient, but still not as effecient as a manual transmission. Then there is the F1 style transmission aka semi-auto, which is a sequential gearbox(like a motocycle), with a computer controlled hydraulically activated clutch. When you hit the paddle or let the computer do the shift automatically, the computer engages the clutch, match engine revs, and changes gear all in about 20 ms for racing but slower for passenger cars. The downside is, there is no actual manual control. F1 cars do have a hand operated clutch, but even that is computer controlled. If the computer or hydraulics fail, you are screwed. Audi now has a gearbox that employs 2 clutches. Essentially it's 2 independant gearboxs. It operates sort of the same as a F1 style gearbox except the computer can engage one as it disengages the other for a seamless shift. Audi and formerly Subaru has CVT's. CVT work really well in that you have unlimited number of gears. But they suffer in mechanical efficiency. WRC rally cars has an entirely different style of gearboxes. The system is similiar to a F1 gearbox in that most use a sequential gearbox, but they retain all the manual controls. In case of computer failure or hydraulics, there is still a clutch pedal and a shifter. Instead of having the hydraulic actuators move the parts in the gearbox, it moves the gear lever. It's slower, but rally cars have to keep going if something fails. The Subaru Rally Team uses a completely different style than the rest of the competition. ProDrive uses a system where instead of using a sequential gearbox, they use a standard H gate gearbox. The gearbox is still activated hydraulic, but the advantage of using a H gate gearbox is when the car goes off course or stalls. With a quick twist of a knob, you can instantly select N, R, or 1st gear instead of having to shift through each gear on a sequential gearbox to get to 1st, N, or R. The latest innovation in gearbox design is the ZeroShift gearbox. The original design is a modified conventional manual gearbox. You still need to use the clutch to get the car going, but after that, the clutch isn't needed. The advantage is you can shift with lifting or rev matching. When you shift between gears, the shift literally occurs in 0 ms. In all the other system besides Audi's dual clutch setup, there is a loss in power transfer for a short duration. With this system, there is no loss in power transfer so accelerations are continuous as you go through the gears. Initially the design was to replace the standard manual gearbox since no electronics are needed with this system. The new direction they are heading is to use electronics to smooth out the shift since it occurs abruptly and also to use a computer controlled clutch. F1 teams are looking at this system closely since each shift cost them 20ms in acceleration. As for the debate of auto vs. manual, in an acceleration test a good driver in a manual will beat a good driver in an auto unless the driver screws up. A poor driver in an auto will beat a mediocre driver in a manual. A really good driver will not beat a poor driver using a computer to control the car with launch control and traction control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wukindada Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Deer Killer To answer your question I am not exactly sure;) Judging from the few encounters I have had with the vehicle I would be willing to say somewhere in the 5-5.3 sec range) As mentioned in earlier posts, I am not doubting a 5Mt is quicker. If I were to compare my vehicle to another members vehicle (having the same mods) except the tranny diff, I'd be willing to bet those 0-60 times would be within .3 sec) with the manual pulling ahead:( Scotty sums it up well, "An auto will beat the average 5MT driver, if the 5MT driver knows what he is doing he will not lose" Toyota 6EATS .........SUCK!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusDubya77 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 man, I love these debates..lets try not getting into this one for at least one week.. :woowoo:check out the Diamond Gray Metallic Monster!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringFellow Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 melayout, comments like above are what breeds laziness with most AT drivers which is getting all too common. If you know that you have to shift constantly, you will not be tempted to use the other hand for something else other than to focus on driving. Uh...your comment is flawed. I hate to tell you this but there are people out there with manuals that are eating, on the cell phone, reading, etc and driving a manual. Just because someone drives an auto, doesn't make them lazy. BTW, I have driven a manual until my OB and I don't regret the switch to this Subbie with the 5EAT. And that switch doesn't immediately make me a lazy driver!!! I've own the 5MT in my OBXT. In addition I've put about 500 total miles on three separate LGT 5EAT loaners from my dealer. I am only an average manual driver. I can also be called Sir putz-a-shift. THERE IS NO WAY THE 5EAT CAN SHIFT FASTER THAN ME. In fake manual mode you shift....and then...a little later...not yet...ok, now, the car shifts. SoldonSubie, you are forgetting that those loaners haven't had the opportunity to "learn" the style of driving for each driver. Once the car learns your driving style, the shift would change to match your driving. Also if the both of us had to drive in 25 miles of bumper to bumper traffic everyday, you would truly understand the true advantage of an auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringFellow Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Oh yeah...there might be one good reason to not get a 5EAT........ If your wife can't/won't drive a manual! Buy a MT and she won't drive your car. Oh wait...did I actually say that. -S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmarch Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 this thread would be a lot more useful if the people who have decided to switch back to a MT would explain why, rather than just rehashing the ages old "auto versus manual" debate. Everyone knows the plusses and minuses of manuals and automatics. I've heard that the 5EAT is pretty good, for an automatic, and works with the turbo better than the 4EAT. I'm a big manual transmission fan, but am considering adding an automatic commuter to the stable. How well matched is the 5EAT to the subaru engines? i.e. if you're shopping for an auto, is it a good choice, or is this one of the cars where an auto saps all of the performance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommunist Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 having driven some tiptronic VWs (which from what I can tell is pretty similar to the kind of auto tranny that is in the LGT) I can say with certainty that I can shift a manual faster. More advanced auto transmissions (like DSG) are in fact faster than I can ever possibly shift a manual. I think a lot of poeple talking about the AT on the LGT being "faster" than the MT version think they in fact have a more advanced AT than they in reality have. But my take on this: The AT is great if if you deal with a lot of traffic or aren't particularly good at driving a manual (in which case the AT will indeed be faster for you). Having manual clutch control however is a pretty big advantage when it comes to controlling the car when there is "spirited" driving going on. -if someone is more interested in comfort go for the AT for sure -if someone is more interested in performence the MT on the LGT seems to be the better choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 having driven some tiptronic VWs (which from what I can tell is pretty similar to the kind of auto tranny that is in the LGT) I can say with certainty that I can shift a manual faster. More advanced auto transmissions (like DSG) are in fact faster than I can ever possibly shift a manual. I think a lot of poeple talking about the AT on the LGT being "faster" than the MT version think they in fact have a more advanced AT than they in reality have. But my take on this: The AT is great if if you deal with a lot of traffic or aren't particularly good at driving a manual (in which case the AT will indeed be faster for you). Having manual clutch control however is a pretty big advantage when it comes to controlling the car when there is "spirited" driving going on. -if someone is more interested in comfort go for the AT for sure -if someone is more interested in performence the MT on the LGT seems to be the better choice Most 5EATers know we don't have an SMG-like system, but we know that the tranny was made to be driven like a manual, put it in manu-matic mode and select gears all day long. Now with respect to the shift times, we still shift faster than MT. When you first start using the buttons/shiftknob to select gears you will experience a slight lag in upshifts, but after you've known how much that lag is, you can anticipate and know by how much earlier should I request the shift for it to happen at an exact moment in time. So when you take the lag out of the equation, the shift on a 5EAT is much faster than what is possible on a 5MT. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommunist Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Most 5EATers know we don't have an SMG-like system, but we know that the tranny was made to be driven like a manual, put it in manu-matic mode and select gears all day long. Now with respect to the shift times, we still shift faster than MT. When you first start using the buttons/shiftknob to select gears you will experience a slight lag in upshifts, but after you've known how much that lag is, you can anticipate and know by how much earlier should I request the shift for it to happen at an exact moment in time. So when you take the lag out of the equation, the shift on a 5EAT is much faster than what is possible on a 5MT. i noticed the lag to be somewhat variable when driving an auto of this type so I'm not clear as to how you can anticipate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 i noticed the lag to be somewhat variable when driving an auto of this type so I'm not clear as to how you can anticipate.... Just trust me, it's ingrained in me and it works all the time. Going WOT, I would say about 500RPM before the shiftpoint. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommunist Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Just trust me, it's ingrained in me and it works all the time. Going WOT, I would say about 500RPM before the shiftpoint. 500rpm? that's a pretty long lag! on another issue - how can you get a really solid launch when you have no clutch to slip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Brake torque. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommunist Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Brake torque. eewwwwww - sounds like a good way to put a lot of strain on the transmission.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmarch Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 eewwwwww - sounds like a good way to put a lot of strain on the transmission.... you're basically just boiling the fluid more. If you accelerate your fluid changes, I don't think it's a bad as dropping a clutch for a car. just my interpretation, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 eewwwwww - sounds like a good way to put a lot of strain on the transmission.... Search the forums and hit up NASIOC and you will find out which kind of transmission is more prone to failure. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommunist Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 you're basically just boiling the fluid more. If you accelerate your fluid changes, I don't think it's a bad as dropping a clutch for a car. just my interpretation, of course. well - anyone who knows how to properly luanch knows that "dropping the clutch" isn't the way to go. a good launch in a MT car seems to be a bit hard on the clutch (from the slippage) but otherwise not too bad. i'm just leary of doing something (pressing on the gas and brake at the same time) which wasn't really intended to happen. i'm sure it's not that bad to do occasionally though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommunist Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Search the forums and hit up NASIOC and you will find out which kind of transmission is more prone to failure. the AT isn't going to attract "racers" the way the MT will so I don't know if that really says anything about the durability of the 2 trannies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emorphien Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Search the forums and hit up NASIOC and you will find out which kind of transmission is more prone to failure. If you're saying the MT is more prone to failure, it's because there are people pushing it a lot harder resulting in early death. This is no surprise and says relatively little about the tranny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Well, other cars have manuals too and they are pushed harder than most Subarus and don't fail as common as Subarus. The difference is since we have AWD, the MT has to move 4-wheels all at the same time instead of 2-wheels, which puts a lot on stress of the MT since it is a direct connection with the engine and therefore it is more prone to failure. Now with an AT, you have the torque converter, which reduces driveline stress and is made for that very reason to allow the engine and drivetrain to move at different speeds, and thus is more forgiving. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emorphien Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 And if you drive normally on a daily basis you're not going to run in to problems with it. If you push it occaisionally, it'll last. If you drop the clutch or shift poorly every day you run the risk of damaging it. This is a no brainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratman009 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 They have two classes, SS automatic and SS manual - same rules, same motors same cars (take for example a 1968 Barracuda with a Hemi in it - consistently one of the fastest cars in the category). Guess which class has the shorter E.T.s? SS/A - Automatic Again, proof that a "good" automatic can CONSISTENTLY deliver quicker shifts with far less chance of a missed shift, particularly in a drag race type situation. I'll be honest, I did lose a couple of stop light drags in high school/college when I had my '71 Dodge Challenger (4-speed, Hurst super shifter, 3.91 Dana rear, 340 block bored and stroked out to about 391 cubic inches, 750 double pumper Holley carb and all that jazz), due to a bad or missed shift. Sometimes my poor 844 tranny would just not want to line up into the next gear (synchro problem, who knows), particularly from 2nd to 3rd. And I'll be honest, I was a damn fine driver if I do say so myself. Now, let's move over to road racing. What do F1 cars use? SMG type devices, which while they are manual boxes, shift via automated systems that are much faster than any human can possibly due themselves. Trust me, if a true clutched manual was faster, Schumaker and the boys would be using them. Look at rally racing too, all automated manuals now. Before everyone flames me, I will state that both vehicles I've owned in my lifetime have been manuals, first the Challenger and now my trusty '94 Honda Accord EX sedan 5-speed. I will agree with some on this board who stated that you truly do tend to pay more attention when you are driving a manual. I firmly feel that the process is more involving, which keeps you focused on the task at hand, which is driving. Never mind the sense of control that you feel from driving a manual. Unfortunately, I have gotten sick and tired of sitting in 10-mile long stretches of bumper to bumper traffic on such fine roads in NJ as the Garden State "Parking Lot" and Route 287 during peak hours. My aggravation has finally boiled over to the point that I WILL NOT be buying another manual with my new car purchase this summer/early fall. The constant clutch work just makes an already obnoxious commute to work even worse. Being that the majority of my driving now falls under these crappy conditions, I just can't bring myself to buy another (for my daily driver anyway). I'll miss driving a manual on many occasions, and I envy all of you guys who have more open roads to drive on. Hopefully, I'll be able to afford the fun car soon as well for weekend road work, but until then, I'm eyeing a 5EAT (will they make the spec-b in EAT) Legacy GT, or the new IS350 with the 6-speed auto with paddle shifters (I know, different class of car, but I can afford it now). I've just heard that BMW has cancelled the SMG box for the new '06 330i, which had been my first choice. And from a driver who still is biased towards manuals, I will say that on my back to back test runs of a stick LGTL and then the 5EAT, the manual was more fun, and did feel a bit quicker in the seat of the pants, but damn, the 5EAT was definitely the most fun true "automatic" I've ever driven. I liked that I could keep both hands on the wheel while power sliding around corners, shifting with the buttons as I needed (I wonder if they'll ever let me test drive cars there again - I swear I brought them both back to the lot with the smell of burning rubber and brakes). So, to each their own. They are both great choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JessterCPA Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Holy Moly. 5 Pages in less than a day! This is exhausting. I bought my auto because I wanted it. I was willing to sacrifice the "n"th degree of performance for the convenience of not having a clutch to deal with in the incessant NJ traffic, and my wife can drive the car now also without fearing hills. The 5EAT is good enough to satisfy my performance wishes, and give me comfort to boot. I acknowledge I will lose in a drag race to a 5mt. But how many drag races am I going to do? Not too many I reckon. Personal decision. Lazy? I don't think so. Jesse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emorphien Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 I liked the 5EAT too. Both my previous cars have been underpowered autos. I chose the manual because I wanted something different, and because the buttdyno really told me the 5MT felt considerably swifter. Something I'd really like to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewthebassman Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 This has been a very interesting debate and somewhat answers my questions. I have a learned a lot about what consitutes a manumatic thanks to numerous posts. I am coming from 1 year in a 325i MT which I felt I had to modify to improve the shifting, and I never really got it right. Nice but not perfect. And when I would take out the 320i AT loaners, it would shift faster and smoother than me in the low speed range. With my daily commute being 100 miles round trip, city, highway, country, I finally gave in to the AT because I do indeed get stuck in traffic, and I'm just sick of clutching. From what I've heard the SMG in the M3 is awesome, I just figure I'm driving the poor man's version... I like having the AT now, it makes talking on the cell easier (although I hate talking in the car anyway), and eating McDonald's and drinking OJ easier too. I'm sure that MT shifts faster, or else the 0-60 figures quoted wouldn't always be with the manual. As for "launching" my Legacy....well I don't really need to do that since I don't auto-x it and I know already that it is fast. I find the AT is very well matched to the engine, and I've read a lot of reviews that agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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