rao Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 rao - upgrading the grounds makes your car one step closer to a Spec B. that is how it works. you are getting closer to the ultimate driving machine, that is all. add the big 3, and you're another step closer. isnt the point of all car mods to get closer to having a Spec B? unless, you have a Spec B, then you're starting to tear the universe. Is the grounding system different on the spec B? You guys on this forum really have a spec b complex. I think subaru's are great and all but none of them including the sti's are real sports cars much less the ultimate driving machine. They are real world cars that are fun to drive and can go in the snow with the right tires. I guess the could be considered sport sedans but I think sporty sedans is a term that describes them better By the way to fan the flames a little I own a spec b but I consider it just what it is a nice little car. I may change the turbo and would like to end up with high 300 to low 400 whp/tq range with wtq equaling or bettering whp that would make this good sports sedan a good bit better I imagine. I hope a gt30 or similar turbo can handle that task. A complex I think most folks are just in awe of them A GT30 might do the trick, but that depends on if you have your grounding properly sorted out. BTW, just about any Subaru 2.5 turbo will have higher peak torque than peak HP. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted March 31, 2011 I Donated Share Posted March 31, 2011 I hear there is this cool new rhetorical device called "sarcasm." If I use it, will THAT make my car closer to a Spec B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow05gtRI Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 You guys on this forum really have a spec b complex. I think subaru's are great and all but none of them including the sti's are real sports cars much less the ultimate driving machine. They are real world cars that are fun to drive and can go in the snow with the right tires. I guess the could be considered sport sedans but I think sporty sedans is a term that describes them better By the way to fan the flames a little I own a spec b but I consider it just what it is a nice little car. I may change the turbo and would like to end up with high 300 to low 400 whp/tq range with wtq equaling or bettering whp that would make this good sports sedan a good bit better I imagine. I hope a gt30 or similar turbo can handle that task. how DARE you insult the Spec B with such belittling comments! Don't you know with the proper mods, atmospheric pressure, wind speed, temperature, elevation, road pitch, and seat covers it can fly to the MOON?! if you pitch your orbit around the moon correctly, it can send you out to mars faster than any space shuttle nasa has put out there! and as i mentioned in the post you quoted, if you aren't careful with how you mod your Spec B, you can tear a hole in the universe! Is the grounding system different on the spec B? yes. it doesn't actually need ground leads, as it has a new technology called "Air Ground" which uses arc-flash to send all electricity to ground. I hear there is this cool new rhetorical device called "sarcasm." If I use it, will THAT make my car closer to a Spec B? yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vomplegacy Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 if you picture electricity as a highway, and factory 8 or 4 gauge wire as a 2 lane, and you upgrade to say 1/0 ga, it turns into a 4 lane where more electrons can flow freely without restraint of bottlenecking like smaller gauge wiring does. in a car audio system, the grounding of an amp or system is the most important for maximum flow. since electricity flows from negative to positive unlike the "conventional" teaching taught in school which are ass backwards, the ground should be as thick if not thicker than the 12v. since the factory alternator on an 05 is 110a, upgrading the wire from the alternator from the factory wire allows the current to flow with minimal resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ama0787 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 how DARE you insult the Spec B with such belittling comments! Don't you know with the proper mods, atmospheric pressure, wind speed, temperature, elevation, road pitch, and seat covers it can fly to the MOON?! if you pitch your orbit around the moon correctly, it can send you out to mars faster than any space shuttle nasa has put out there! and as i mentioned in the post you quoted, if you aren't careful with how you mod your Spec B, you can tear a hole in the universe! yes. it doesn't actually need ground leads, as it has a new technology called "Air Ground" which uses arc-flash to send all electricity to ground. yes. Why ahve all forums seemed to come to this. These are places to share information and help each other. Every post that does not pertain to the threads topic gets in the way of someones research. Post in off topic for socializing or cheesey jokes Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 if you picture electricity as a highway, and factory 8 or 4 gauge wire as a 2 lane, and you upgrade to say 1/0 ga, it turns into a 4 lane where more electrons can flow freely without restraint of bottlenecking like smaller gauge wiring does. in a car audio system, the grounding of an amp or system is the most important for maximum flow. since electricity flows from negative to positive unlike the "conventional" teaching taught in school which are ass backwards, the ground should be as thick if not thicker than the 12v. since the factory alternator on an 05 is 110a, upgrading the wire from the alternator from the factory wire allows the current to flow with minimal resistance. I see. So what you need is a superhighway for the electrons? How do you know how big of a road you need? Is there a limit to how many lanes this highway needs? Is one 0 gauge cable enough, are 5 enough, 10? Do you need to increase the positive leads as well so that the on ramps are of a similar size? Why does Subaru not have this information so that they can supply the car with a sufficient grounding system? Why ahve all forums seemed to come to this. These are places to share information and help each other. Every post that does not pertain to the threads topic gets in the way of someones research. Post in off topic for socializing or cheesey jokes Anthony I agree - why won't anyone answer my simple questions about the benefits of the grounding mod? Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTDogg MA Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 So the "smoother" flow of electrical current relates to the charging of the battery? How does this impact the overall performance of the car? What is the benefit of "smoother" battery charging" How can this be measured? I have read that the benefit relates to improving the performance of the ecu, which accounts for the smoother idle (lots of increased smoothness with better grounds it seems), etc. This business about smoother battery charging is different. The intarwebs is a hard place to detect sarcasm, so I can't tell if you're being a dick or being serious. The output from your alternator is constantly fluctuating. If you increase the size of the pipes (gauge of the wire) then you reduce these fluctuations. If you reduce the fluctuations, EVERYTHING that runs on electricity in your car will perform (electrically) better. Your ECU, your amplifiers, your headlights... everything. Try running your home theater reciever on 95VAC and see how it does. I don't understand why people are so anti-grounding, it seems a little ridiculous. The benefits can easily be proven, and the cost is minimal. I made an 8 AWG kit for my Z for less than $30. I got some stuff on clearance, but you can still do your own for close to that, maybe a bit more. 8 AWG (20 pack) gold plated ring terminals: $10.97 [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Brand-Monster-Quality-Copper-Extremely/dp/B003PP06TM]25' of red 8AWG OFC wire: $24.95[/ame] 50' of black 8AWG wire: $36.64 and sell half of it. Total: $35.92 (or less) and a crimper or soldering iron and maybe an hour, two tops of your time. If you do the mod and expect a 10WHP gain, then you're an idiot and should stop drinking all the marketing kool-aid But it is a legit upgrade to your car's electrical system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 So how much voltage fluctuation is "bad" and how much is "good" or acceptable? I think my home theater receiver (if I had one) would have a voltage regulator on it so it would probably not work at 95 volts. Does the car have no protection for low voltage conditions? Is it possible that the voltage "fluctuations" are normal? Is the alternator's output supposed to bo constant at all times? Does this mean that the car will work better if it was a 24 volt system? Where are all of the benefits that can be easily proven? All I have read is that it increases "smoothness" and makes the electrons flow "better" all of which seem pretty subjective. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted April 1, 2011 I Donated Share Posted April 1, 2011 Do you need to increase the positive leads as well so that the on ramps are of a similar size? Your terminology is incorrect. They are off-ramps, not on-ramps. I understand how this might be confusing, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I think you are wrong there, the positive leas would be on ramps. The grounds are apparently the highways, when they really are more like the off ramps. The real question is where do they all lead? Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted April 1, 2011 I Donated Share Posted April 1, 2011 Since electrons flow from negative to positive, positive leads would be off-ramps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dease42 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 The best info I ever heard (and I had a DIY grounding kit on my NA 05 leggy) was someone on this forum who, instead of doing a grounding kit, cleaned and reset all the ground points on the car. This produced a noticable improvement in idle and electrical fluctuations (no scientific data, just a feeling, based on the lights in the car). This makes sense to me, after 6+ years of driving, I could easily believe the connection points could get dirty, and make less of a "clean" contact. With my own kit, the only thing I noticed was less interference from my stereo system with the lights, the bass hits wouldn't dim the interior or dash lights. I have not done this on my GT, and it's got the same stereo... I've never noticed the lights dim at all... All in all, not really a necessary mod, but I would suggest checking and cleaning any contact points.. can't hurt. (unless you have a spec-b, don't they clean themselves like a cat?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Since electrons flow from negative to positive, positive leads would be off-ramps. If that is true than all of the support for the grounding mod (such as it is) doesn't make any sense and the grounding mod should be increasing the size and number of positive leads Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted April 1, 2011 I Donated Share Posted April 1, 2011 rao, I'm afraid I have no answers for you on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 ramps? Are these skate park wires? My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vomplegacy Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 So how much voltage fluctuation is "bad" and how much is "good" or acceptable? I think my home theater receiver (if I had one) would have a voltage regulator on it so it would probably not work at 95 volts. Does the car have no protection for low voltage conditions? Is it possible that the voltage "fluctuations" are normal? Is the alternator's output supposed to bo constant at all times? Does this mean that the car will work better if it was a 24 volt system? Where are all of the benefits that can be easily proven? All I have read is that it increases "smoothness" and makes the electrons flow "better" all of which seem pretty subjective. first of all, your not being productive to this thread whatsoever. secondly, everything electrical has a operating voltage, most car electronics fall under the 10-16 volt range, so anything less will shut it off and anything more will put it it protect mode if the product has it. as for what voltage is acceptable is completely up to the person, i personally don't settle for any dimming period, which is why i have a h.o. alternator with the proper gauge wire, and the batteries to go along with it. if someone wants to tolerate dimming(voltage drop) that's ultimately up to them. and yes obviously 24volt systems are superior and is why cars are starting to be 24volt or 36. it cuts the current needed drastically so you dont have to use thicker gauge wire or go to can wires like all new cars are so they can cut down on how many wires the car needs to send voltage and/or communication to bcm/pcm, etc. voltage fluctuations are only normal if you have a completely unmodified car electrically speaking which is also iffy because factory alternators run at generally 85% of its full output so adding anything aftermarket or turning on all accy's in the car on such as ac, headlights, hazards, stereo, etc on will also cause fluctuations. and before you say anything as well, upgrading you grounds and power cable from the alternator will only do so much because the alternator only produces so much. BUT it WILL cause less voltage drop significantly than not doing it at all. there are too many scenarios and every car and electrical load is different so you cant just be ignorant to everything. everything i just stated is proven and backed up by any credible company or testing facility, like UL or MECP or ASE or ICAR, etc. you pick. you can go all day because i can keep explaining facts all day too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted April 1, 2011 I Donated Share Posted April 1, 2011 first of all, your not being productive to this thread whatsoever. It is his thread. He has a number of questions about the subject that he would like to have clarified... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 first of all, your not being productive to this thread whatsoever. secondly, everything electrical has a operating voltage, most car electronics fall under the 10-16 volt range, so anything less will shut it off and anything more will put it it protect mode if the product has it. as for what voltage is acceptable is completely up to the person, i personally don't settle for any dimming period, which is why i have a h.o. alternator with the proper gauge wire, and the batteries to go along with it. if someone wants to tolerate dimming(voltage drop) that's ultimately up to them. and yes obviously 24volt systems are superior and is why cars are starting to be 24volt or 36. it cuts the current needed drastically so you dont have to use thicker gauge wire or go to can wires like all new cars are so they can cut down on how many wires the car needs to send voltage and/or communication to bcm/pcm, etc. voltage fluctuations are only normal if you have a completely unmodified car electrically speaking which is also iffy because factory alternators run at generally 85% of its full output so adding anything aftermarket or turning on all accy's in the car on such as ac, headlights, hazards, stereo, etc on will also cause fluctuations. and before you say anything as well, upgrading you grounds and power cable from the alternator will only do so much because the alternator only produces so much. BUT it WILL cause less voltage drop significantly than not doing it at all. there are too many scenarios and every car and electrical load is different so you cant just be ignorant to everything. everything i just stated is proven and backed up by any credible company or testing facility, like UL or MECP or ASE or ICAR, etc. you pick. you can go all day because i can keep explaining facts all day too. Aside from saying that I am not being productive, neither you or anybody else have answered the simple questions that I have posed about this seeming simple subject. No facts, no measurements, no explanations, nothing other than it will create a "smoother" car and that the electrons will not be as confused. If you want people to believe you then having some actual information might be a better way to go about it. I will search Underwriters Laboratory for a page about how they recommend the ground mod, but I doubt I will find that they recommend it. If your lights are dimming, the problem isn't that the car doesn't have enough grounds It is his thread. He has a number of questions about the subject that he would like to have clarified... Actually it is not my thread but I do have a lot of questions about this important subject and it would be nice to have some answers that go beyond the amount of "smoothness" that it increases, let alone dealing with the actual electronics involved. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTDogg MA Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I will search Underwriters Laboratory for a page about how they recommend the ground mod, but I doubt I will find that they recommend it. Actually it is not my thread but I do have a lot of questions about this important subject and it would be nice to have some answers that go beyond the amount of "smoothness" that it increases, let alone dealing with the actual electronics involved. Feel free to research it yourself, since you're the only one militantly doubting the benefits... I'm not going to take measurements of my car's electrical system, I know it works, it's that simple. Many automotive electronics have VRs built in, but if you minimize the fluctuations going in, the overall efficiency of the device goes up. In the time you have spent arguing aimlessly in this thread, you could have removed all OEM grounds, cleaned them of any corrosion, built a home made grounding kit, and installed it. I look forward to seeing how many of your next 13K posts are useful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Militant? I didn't ask anyone to take measurements, I asked a series of simple questions which seem to elude answers. The only militant folks are the ones that insist that adding additional grounds will cause some sort of magic to happen. It is possible that all of my posts are useless, which also doesn't explain why the grounding mod is useful. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vomplegacy Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 like i stated, every car is different and there are too many scenarios, and i didnt say that the problem would be fixed by grounds. I am simply supplying facts on how electricity flows and what can be done to suffice the problem at hand to a certain point. what exactly are you trying to get out of this, you keep refering back to "smoothness" . any voltage drop 1.2v or more will cause dimming, is that what your looking for? and what dimming are you talking about, the difference in dimming between 13.6-14.4 to 12.6 or from 12.6 to below that? when the car is on the headlights will be brighter than when the car is off because it is getting more voltage, whether or not you do anything, that is inevitable. i am talking about not losing any voltage or maybe .5 volts when the car is on and the grounding is properly done which i have proven time and time again. rao, being that you are local to me, i am offering you to come by my business and i will call up several clients to come by and i can literally teach you and show you on their vehicles with the "big three" and ill disconnect them back to factory and show you the difference in voltage personally with an o-scope, dmm, or current clamp, or all 3 you choose. thats what im offering to resolve your questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 OK, so the threshold for voltage drop is .5 v ad adding additional grounds will correct this voltage drop? And this voltage drop is constant; it is n ot the normal drop that occurs after start up, especially in cold weather as the alternator's internal regulator does it's job to top off the batter. I am referring to "smoothness" because that is what others are referring to. I would welcome such a demonstration and would also welcome to talk to your clients. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vomplegacy Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 really any voltage drop is noticable, it just matters whether or not its enough for you to do anything about it. so you know that when your car is off a battery sits at around 12.6. when you turn the car on, the alternator boosts the voltage to 13.8-14.4 generally. that increase by itself is noticeable in the car audio industry. basically the ideal situation is to have as high of voltage as possible without damaging electrical components which is around 16-18 volts depending on the car. personally my legacy ran at 15.5 volts until i installed a h.o. alternator. now i dropped it down to 14.7 considering i dont need the extra current and voltage that puts out. standard 8 gauge wire can handle around 500 watts safely or roughly 40 amps of current....wait a minute...so if a factory alt such as our legacy has a stock alt of 110 on a 05 then were not getting the full amount of current to the battery. you can push the 8 gauge up to about 60a before any melting or burning of the wire would incur. 4 gauge can handle about 80-100 amps. 1/0 gauge can do upwards of 300 amps. that will give the alternator the least resistance so there will be very little if any fluctuation in current/voltage flow. make sense? these references are calculated via 12.6v base. these numbers do go up when the voltage goes up but the wire is still limited by current ratings so there is only so much you can do with the stock wiring, alt, or battery. i hope this kinda helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 I'm not doing any ground mod till I see a you tube video of the volotoscope showing it works. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vomplegacy Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 thats funny, even for you guys who think it doesnt work, it still cant hurt and for the possible 35 bucks it costs....but its all good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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