vinnig Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 No pics. Here is a list of distributors for Alberta http://piaa.idealerquik.com/statedlrs.asp Do you have pics of them? Also where can I buy them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaskajoel Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 The PIAA H3 ION CRYSTAL are excellent - am very happy with them. http://www.piaa.com/Bulbs/Bulbs-H3.html I upgraded to these PIAAs from nokyas hoping for an improvement...there is almost ZERO difference between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underpowerd Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I upgraded to these PIAAs from nokyas hoping for an improvement...there is almost ZERO difference between the two. this was more/less my impression of the parade of halogens i've tried over the years (philips, osram, SS, 100W, piaa ion...) before my mini-epiphany via hid. some of us have to learn the hard way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogg Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I had installed HID's on my old 98 legacy with JDM projectors, sure it was nice but the light cutoff was horrible and even pointed down other drivers would flash me. okay then. since you dont want hids and there wont be any halogens that will be useful...time for some spot lights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zac88 Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 I had aftermarket halogen fog lights on my old legacy and they were 100x better then the stock ones on my new wagon. Are we just doomed by the stock fog light projector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDN 2.5i Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 yup, unless you go HID you won't get flashed by anyone if you're running HIDs in the fogs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GTWAGONLIMITED Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I just bought some PIAA Ion Crystal bulbs today, should be here soon. When I get them installed I will post some pictures so people can see what they look like. I have a feeling I should have gone HID, but we will see.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 But don't spread misinformation blatant untruths. Actually it's you that is mistaken. It's been shown and discussed here in countless topics. The science behind HIDs in halogen projectors is no mystery and is fact. Not everyone accepts it because real-life application is subjective. You love yours, I hated mine. Additionally, the utility of foglights is not to throw a lot of light out, but to provide contrast from a different angle in order to better penetrate poor driving conditions. The amount of light HIDs give off will just cause more glare. To expect the fogs to throw the same amount of light at the same amount of distance as low beams is both unrealistic and foolish. They were never designed to operate this way because it defeats their purpose. Your "reasons" for hating on HIDs have been debunked It's the other way around, Jeff. Sorry. Every time HID kits are mentioned, it causes debate and arguments. Unfortunately for the proponents, the science behind it sides with those that say no to HID kits without a proper retrofit. It also happens that the law sides as well. It is illegal to install a HID kit in a vehicle which did not come with HIDs from factory. And reasonable folk deem them rice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 this was more/less my impression of the parade of halogens i've tried over the years (philips, osram, SS, 100W, piaa ion...) before my mini-epiphany via hid. some of us have to learn the hard way The way it works with the human eye is, you have to double the lumen rating in order to be "wowed". Maybe my eyes are more sensitive. In fact, based on personal experience, I know they are. I can tell the difference between 150 and 200 lumens. I can see a very clear difference between the spread of halogen bulbs in a halogen projector and HID bulbs in a halogen projector. I have yanked my kit out and went back to OSRAMs. Before I owned my Legacy I had an Altima with factory HIDs in a reflector housing. It has never caused me eye strain over the years I have owned it. I have experienced eye strain in just the first week of having the HID kit on the Legacy. Nothing beats OEM HIDs, no matter how much we try to justify the switch. Additionally, this quest for more light may in the end be futile because tests show the difference in reaction time and target avoidance is marginal at best. You can see the research here http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/transportation/vehicle.asp?section=13.1 Additionally, HID kits also seem to have the opposite effect of what they are supposed to do, in some cases; nothing is better than driving cautiously in the dark or bad weather. Human behavior in this case is similar to those that install a radar detector. Stats show that a significant number of ticketed drivers have a radar detector installed. A false sense of security is the most dangerous thing indeed. I don't even know why I am still choosing to get into arguments over this. I will start collecting my own replies and will just link them in the future. Again, in the end, just know that the facts and law of automotive lighting does not side with the proponents of HID kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTS Jeff Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 debunked? If you can seriously prove me wrong with facts and figures then i'll run HID's but you cant. Daniel Stern clearly states that HID's are not recomended for foglights, read up on his website if you dont believe me. Refer to my first post. I don't know how much more succinctly I can present those facts for you. Do you want me to draw a diagram? A pie chart? Long term study for being flashed? Get real buddy! Daniel Stern's website is useful, but not exactly a bible. For one, his articles haven't been updated for YEEEAARS so he probably is referring to 92 Civics. And some food for thought...wise men don't use the terms, "always" and "never." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 His articles haven't been updated in years because there is no need, just like we don't have to revise what we know about gravity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 In particular, H7 projectors work quite well with HID kits because focal distance is nearly identical (27.1mm vs. 27.05mm) and the HID capsule length is identical to the halogen filament length (4.1mm) and the nature of projectors means that the cutoff shield creates a sharp cutoff regardless of light source. The only real issue with Legacy lowbeam projectors are the squirrel finders, which can be filled. As another poster said, this isn't a 92 Civic we're working with. "Work quite well" is completely different from saying "there are no issues" or "everything is perfect". If that were the case, then Subaru would not have a reason to manufacture a different projector housing for HIDs. "Work quite well" is a subjective assessment. What "works quite well" for you may be inadequate for someone else. Case in point, me. And it looks like opie has this very concern, hence his reluctance to switch to HIDs. In other words, what we are arguing is not the science behind it, which you yourself accept as true and accurate by acknowledging a HID kit only "works quite well". What we are arguing is the subjective application. You have no leg to stand on, similarly to how you would have nothing to stand on in an argument of which color is the best. I got flashed 3 times in a week when I had my HID kit. The aim was identical to the halogens. The cutoff markings matched the HID kit to the halogen. I had taken measurements before and after the install and I also double-checked my work by following the headlight aiming procedure outlined by Subaru. I got flashed 3 times in the time I owned my oem-HID Altima, which was 3 years. And like I already said, that Altima had reflectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Squirell finders. Fill them or don't use hids. "This is an adventure." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underpowerd Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 The way it works with the human eye is, you have to double the lumen rating in order to be "wowed". Maybe my eyes are more sensitive. In fact, based on personal experience, I know they are. I can tell the difference between 150 and 200 lumens. I can see a very clear difference between the spread of halogen bulbs in a halogen projector and HID bulbs in a halogen projector. I have yanked my kit out and went back to OSRAMs. Before I owned my Legacy I had an Altima with factory HIDs in a reflector housing. It has never caused me eye strain over the years I have owned it. I have experienced eye strain in just the first week of having the HID kit on the Legacy. Nothing beats OEM HIDs, no matter how much we try to justify the switch. Additionally, this quest for more light may in the end be futile because tests show the difference in reaction time and target avoidance is marginal at best. You can see the research here http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/transportation/vehicle.asp?section=13.1 Additionally, HID kits also seem to have the opposite effect of what they are supposed to do, in some cases; nothing is better than driving cautiously in the dark or bad weather. Human behavior in this case is similar to those that install a radar detector. Stats show that a significant number of ticketed drivers have a radar detector installed. A false sense of security is the most dangerous thing indeed. I don't even know why I am still choosing to get into arguments over this. I will start collecting my own replies and will just link them in the future. Again, in the end, just know that the facts and law of automotive lighting does not side with the proponents of HID kits. i always appreciate your input, fb -- i think a lot of the others do as well. one thing i totally agree with is the sense of security issue; 'outdriving' the lights is about the only issue i might raise myself with the switch to hid fogs. mostly i just feel grateful for the view. as for the science/data, imo, there's no better than trial and error in the real world as to what works best for each individual -- you mentioned yourself the variable of one set of eyes to the next. for me it was just a vast -- i mean expansive -- improvement in the fogs from any of the halos i've had to hid. fwiw, when i initially did hid kit in my h7s, i was not overly impressed. i agree with your statement that nothing beats oem hid; learned that in spades with my later d2s retro up top. but i think that our projectors are decent enough that hid can be considered an improvement, especially down low in the fogs (which i frankly find bordering useless with halogens). i suppose i should add that i actually modded my fogs further since going hid which might have something to do with my contentment when it comes to the performance hid affords them; i shed the outer pitted frosty glass protective lens that scatters light everywhere one typically doesn't want it (especially with higher output bulbs). i don't necessarily recommend it to members since there's a lot of custom work involved, but i have quietly enjoyed the resultant benefits for a long time now. in the end, considering the cost/longevity (and imho performance) of aftermarket halogens, imo hid is almost a no-brainer, at least worthy of a trial, for anyone unsatisfied enough with our fog app to start a 'best fog light' thread. from what i've seen, the majority who try/have them are well-satisfied -- whether the science agrees or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I am perfectly fine with people liking their kits. I have nothing against your freedom to do whatever you want with your car. However I do take issue when folks use the word "fact" and try to make it out to be like an absolute. Why? Because that's how it was presented to me. I never heard the flip-side of the argument and got HIDs which did not work for me. So in hindsight, I would have appreciated some information from both sides in order to reach my own conclusion. And that's what I'm doing, bringing balance to these discussions because you will VERY rarely see someone point out the drawbacks of HID kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogg Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 there's no better than trial and error in the real world as to what works best for each individual fo sho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I never stated anything as cold hard fact. I refuted the "fact" that hids "defeat the purpose of foglights". Personal preference after that is fine with me. I thought I made that clear but I guess not, sorry. "This is an adventure." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Motion Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I just bought some PIAA Ion Crystal bulbs today, should be here soon. When I get them installed I will post some pictures so people can see what they look like. I have a feeling I should have gone HID, but we will see.... Please post pics! I want to use my fogs as drl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I never stated anything as cold hard fact. I refuted the "fact" that hids "defeat the purpose of foglights". Personal preference after that is fine with me. I thought I made that clear but I guess not, sorry. They do if and when they produce (more)glare, which in the majority of cases of HID kits slapped into halogen optics, does. Ever wonder why almost no OEM offers it? The examples are few and far between, if any. Again, the science and functionality intended for foglights is to provide light which penetrates the curtain in front of you, be it made of snow, fog or heavy rain. The relative angle of their mounting point PLUS (this is the most important aspect) the contrast they create (yellow is the best out of the light spectrum, white or blue is the worst), they help achieve this. Foglights were never intended to light up the road far ahead at the same distance as low beams. These are not opinions, but facts which are readily available in many places on the internet. Another unfortunate fact is that most OEM foglights are inadequate as far as optics and thus functionality is concerned, and some are downright toys. They are there so manufacturers can tick a box on the options list. I would never rely on foglights to enable me to maintain the same speed in adverse conditions as I would on a clear night sky. That is not their functionality. Regarding the Legacy application, most, if not all, owners agree that they are aimed much too low from factory. Raising them a bit will help. I have a pair of Narva golds, they are as yellow as what most of us got familiar with the Lexus IS300. They have worked great in very heavy rain and snow, and even moreso in fog. Final thought. HIDs or not, if it's bad weather and visibility is reduced, slow the f-ck down and you will see that halogens work great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 How many of you have read some of the PDFs I linked previously? I am guessing nobody. The difference in reaction time from your run-o-the-mill halogen and HIDs is measured in miliseconds. The largest difference I have seen so far was 250ms. The article concludes This study was performed to determined if there was any relative benefit for off-axis vision for HID forward lighting systems over standard tungsten halogen systems. In as closely as these systems are representative of typical headlamp systems, it can be generalized from this study that HID headlamps do produce greater off-axis visual performance than traditional halogen systems due to their increased light output and SPD. The magnitude of the difference in performance depends on the off-axis angle and the beam pattern. It is important to note however that the same properties that allow HID systems to produce greater visual performance may cause them to produce more glare. Further study needs to be performed to further quantify the glare aspects of HID systems and weight them against the visual benefits shown here and elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I didn't read it either, but just so you know, 250ms = 1/4 of a sec. In 1/4 of a sec at 60MPH, your car has traveled 22 feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogg Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Final thought. HIDs or not, if it's bad weather and visibility is reduced, slow the f-ck down and you will see that halogens work great. My lights are on pot hole duty.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTS Jeff Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 His articles haven't been updated in years because there is no need, just like we don't have to revise what we know about gravity. Uhh, our concepts of gravity have changed a lot since it was first quantified by Newton, and continue to evolve to this day. I like how you continue to talk about "science" in your following post. Clearly, you possess a critical mind for science. "Work quite well" is completely different from saying "there are no issues" or "everything is perfect". If that were the case, then Subaru would not have a reason to manufacture a different projector housing for HIDs. "Work quite well" is a subjective assessment. What "works quite well" for you may be inadequate for someone else. Case in point, me. And it looks like opie has this very concern, hence his reluctance to switch to HIDs. In other words, what we are arguing is not the science behind it, which you yourself accept as true and accurate by acknowledging a HID kit only "works quite well". What we are arguing is the subjective application. You have no leg to stand on, similarly to how you would have nothing to stand on in an argument of which color is the best. I got flashed 3 times in a week when I had my HID kit. The aim was identical to the halogens. The cutoff markings matched the HID kit to the halogen. I had taken measurements before and after the install and I also double-checked my work by following the headlight aiming procedure outlined by Subaru. I got flashed 3 times in the time I owned my oem-HID Altima, which was 3 years. And like I already said, that Altima had reflectors. 1. I'm not saying that an HID kit in the H7 projectors are superior to HIDs in an HID projector. My other car was an S2000, which if you know anything about anything (excluding gravity haha,) is considered the gold standard in HID lighting. 2. Yes, I'm going by a subjective measurement, and that is inherently flawed, but I support my statements with numerical data, as well as the prior experience I have with the best in OEM HID lighting (S2000) and also using the best in halogen technology in the same projectors (Osram Rallye). I should also mention that I live in the mountains and my daily commute is 50km each way of unlit, windy, and snowy mountain roads in complete darkness during the winter. I don't get flashed, period. And around here, people are quick to flash others, as the use of highbeams is completely necessary. 3. As some have pointed out, and as you have conveniently ignored, filling the squirrel finders is essential to prevent glare above the cutoff. I'm not surprised that your perfectly aimed and double-checked (haha) headlights created glare. Mine did too, before I filled the squirrel finders. Funny thing about those holes, is that I was actually flashed quite often when I had Osram Rallyes with the squirrel finders unfilled. The problem became worse with HIDs, so I bit the bullet and filled them. I haven't had a single person flash me since then. I'm not saying that my HID kit is better than say an OEM S2000 projector. It isn't. But it sure is better than Osram Rallyes. Miles better. A projector with a covered shield CANNOT create glare above the cutoff and the mild deviation of the focal point affects the beam pattern so minutely that the increase in intensity far offsets that issue. Fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naimouasta Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 wrong. the foglights are reflector. only 05-07 are projector. 08-09 are reflector. i had yellow nokya bulbs in mine and i like them. they are for aesthetic purposes only of course. we just have to accept the fact that our foglights suck. when i park next to a stop sign with headlights on, there is no light glaring off onto the stop sign. with the fogs on i can see the light glaring off onto the stop sign. this is like 7-8ft from the stop sign. so i can't imagine how bad it would be with hid's. also another reason why i would argue against hid fogs is the electrical load. two ballasts are already enough, having another two would probably cause reliability issues. you would probably need to start them in a sequence to get them to all turn on which would be annoying, unless you use a time delayed relay or something. L o L This isn't a '92 Civic dude. Both the headlights and foglights are projectors, not reflectors. You're argument is null and void. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/StevenCole/Auto%20Photo%20Shoots/Legacy/DSC_0671.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogg Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 also another reason why i would argue against hid fogs is the electrical load. two ballasts are already enough, having another two would probably cause reliability issues. you would probably need to start them in a sequence to get them to all turn on which would be annoying, unless you use a time delayed relay or something. My Yukon (yes I know not a Legacy), has 6 ballasts, Hi, Lo and fogs. no load problem or reliability issues (been 18 months so far) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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