Legacy vs. Mediocrity

[ssbtech]

RE Legacy vs. Mediocrity:

 

If Subaru has to take an already junky car and redesign it to look even worse for the website for the sole purpose of making their own product look better, they must have some serious design issues with their own product

 

Then again, the interior photos do show the glove-box closing straight

[LosAngelesLGT]

I love that I pointed out Mazdaspeed6s are better than Spec Bs

 

:lol: But EVERYONE who is ANYONE knows Mazdaspeed6:lol:

 

BLOW CHUNKS!

 

And the rest of us know that SpecB are FAR superior to Lambo or Ferarri as track cars.

 

[/posts for your amusement]

 

I don't understand why everyone is so hung up on the looks. If you want awesome looking cars, why even look at Subaru in the first place? .

 

Seriously x2

[Sydtron]

SpecBs tend to be able to stay out of the shop long enough to race on the track, so, you're right there. Even with the banjo horror stories.

[MJ in PA]

Subaru, nay, any business, does not care about that 1% niche of the market that posts on forums about them and wants an LSD or whatever you want to use as your example, and bitches and moans about this and that.

 

If no business cares about that niche, then why do some businesses cater to that niche? Do you see BMW and Audi building Yugo-class vehicles?

 

They care about the other 99% that don't know anything about cars, while also having to compete with cars in that exact same market; you know, where their money comes from. A lot of people here seem to forget that......, Subaru is a business.

 

So, in other words, Subaru would rather leave discerning customers to other brands and is more interested in the customers who are looking for this!

 

http://www.subaru.com/content/static/fightmediocrity/images/overview/img_main_overview.jpg

[iowasuby]

Reader Review of the New Legacy:

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2010/10/reader-review-of-the-week-2011-subaru-legacy.html

 

He doesn't mention it's looks anywhere in the article. I don't think most people care. He focused on MPG and AWD.

[Sydtron]

If no business cares about that niche, then why do some businesses cater to that niche? Do you see BMW and Audi building Yugo-class vehicles?

 

They do, just not in the US. The cheaper cars began to diminish the perceived value of the more expensive ones. Through economy of scale or just plain marking it up, that's the reason why the 1 series is through the roof cost-wise.

 

As far as niche goes, it's hard to claim a company that has SUVs is much of a niche actor any more. Only company that really is honest with who it is and remained so is Ferrari. Everyone else has sold out in some form or another.

[SubOperator]

this thread...

 

but hey, can we take it over 10K posts ? :lol:

[Sydtron]

Hitler drove a 4th gen

[SubOperator]

Hitler drove a 4th gen

 

 

Quoted for your achievements list. Fresh from nasioc or just dumb ?

[Sydtron]

Fourth generation, Fourth Reich. Think about it.

 

What's more, look at the Death of Marat. Look how many fingers are visible. Three. How many liters are in the H6 in the 4th gen Outback? They're bad cars that do bad things.

[LongHiway]

Guess whose front end this belongs to;

 

http://a138.g.akamai.net/n/138/3538/20030722064707/www.cars.com/stock/310x208/252493.jpg

 

The new Legacy's are not the old ones (period).

 

Which is better and why? Depends on the buyer.

[LongHiway]

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;jsessionid=OO2aHpUlAZwb7S0RhkdVT_R?tab=photos&paId=343119370&recnum=&actLog=&listingId=38824183&paId=343119370&listingRecNum=1&criteria=sf1Dir%3dDESC%26mkId%3d20028%26stkTyp%3dN%26rd%3d30%26crSrtFlds%3dstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId%26zc%3d01701%26rn%3d0%26PMmt%3d1-0-0%26stkTypId%3d28880%26sf2Dir%3dASC%26sf1Nm%3dprice%26sf2Nm%3dlocation%26alMkId%3d20028%26rpp%3d50%26feedSegId%3d28705&tracktype=newcc&pageNumber=&numResultsPerPage=&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfield=PRICE&certifiedOnly=false&aff=national

[ssbtech]

So the 20111 Mediocrity comes with a 4 speed Automatic. So does the Forester.

 

FAIL.

 

[TheOneDoubleN]

OK. It's time to call it:

 

http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/454/dbe/454dbe4b-6a87-4e0d-8c0d-5ff7b6ca9569

 

+2. Nothing better than a circular argument....

[bosco]

Fourth generation, Fourth Reich. Think about it.

 

What's more, look at the Death of Marat. Look how many fingers are visible. Three. How many liters are in the H6 in the 4th gen Outback? They're bad cars that do bad things.

 

Why do you own a Subaru when the suspension/handling is so poor and there are better choices available?

[Kario]

Interesting discussion. Do you really think that Legacy handles badly ? Here in Europe Legacy is considered a very good handling car, even a benchmark in its class.

I think that in US you might have different suspension setup that we have but still what other family car has better on road manners ?

3 series handles good but what does it mean ? It will stay neutral in a corner longer - yes, does it have better front to back balance - yes. But this is NOT necessarily a good thing in a real world road conditions. Understeer is good for a normal car for a average driver. It lets you know that you going to fast early enough to make a correction. And with subaru you are much safer to apply throttle in a corner that you are in other cars. With BMW and 3 series car is neutral you feel great, and that you make a mistake and its too late.

My point is that in a real world scenario where there is rain, roads are bumpy or dirty with sand subaru will be safer to drive fast than most cars like 3 series for example or FWD cars.

And on the track... 4x4 car with understeer can still do better times even if it would pull less Gs in a corner because of its traction advantages.

And of course 3 series is a much smaller car than Legacy that cannot even be called a family car.

Here is a interesting test that shows how legacy competes against a traverse engine, FWD based AWD car: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfqw9Fktp-U]YouTube - Fifth Gear - Volvo V50 T5 v Subaru Legacy Sports Tourer[/ame] .

So legacy is really great for what it is a family car, that is very practical, versatile, build simple and for that is handles great.

[Sydtron]

Why do you own a Subaru when the suspension/handling is so poor and there are better choices available?

 

It's not that it handles bad, it could simply handle far better. I own it because a) find a sedan under $40k that isn't a stripper but has an available manual b) find one that isn't FWD c) find one that doesn't have horribly numb steering, bad brake feel d) find one that isn't down on power

 

Leaves you with a scant few cars. I can live with plow-mania so long as the other conditions are met, especially considering how everything else plows.

[Viber]

The Legacy is not sprung tight enough, period.

 

Aggressive carving induces enough body roll to make you feel like you are canoeing in a hurricane. I guess the demo of fat Americans, old people and lesbians like that type of ride...

 

This was the case in the previous gen, and is true now. You're going to have to add a few grand on top of your total cost to cure this. At least the previous gen looked good.

 

The new model is better than the previous gen however when it comes to body roll

 

Then again, only a few car companies spring their cars worth a damn. Mazda seems to be only none luxury brand that springs every single car model for sportiness...The exception being the new 6 which is also for fat Americans and old people

[LosAngelesLGT]

The Legacy is not sprung tight enough, period.

 

x2, unless you are, of course:

 

fat Americans, old people and lesbians

[Sydtron]

Interesting discussion. Do you really think that Legacy handles badly ?

 

Handles extremely poorly stock, can be improved to handle reasonably. It won't ever handle "well" or "great".

 

Here in Europe Legacy is considered a very good handling car, even a benchmark in its class.

I think that in US you might have different suspension setup that we have but still what other family car has better on road manners ?

 

Possibly, there's so much body pitch that any change of direction is going to cause issues. Braking could be a ton shorter and a gimmick test like a slalom could see a big improvement with better dampening. Sway bars need to be mated to the springs as well. After that, the car should do well for itself. Maybe add some positive camber out back or something if you really wanted to get the car to swing around when you gave it some throttle. Lots of different stuff, but in the end it's going to take someone like Racecomp Engineering doing kinematics work to figure it all out.

 

3 series handles good but what does it mean ? It will stay neutral in a corner longer - yes, does it have better front to back balance - yes. But this is NOT necessarily a good thing in a real world road conditions. Understeer is good for a normal car for a average driver. It lets you know that you going to fast early enough to make a correction.

 

This is certainly true and goes back to the point that every car will either naturally understeer or be set up to understeer because it is intuitive to get out of a bad situation. Go into a corner too hot? Hit the brakes, done. Even the 3 series will probably understeer about as much as a Legacy though it'll have a far better turn in, and chances are less absolute grip stock-for-stock because of tire differences.

[Kario]

I have drivern a US 2.5Xt 05 outback once. It was a nightmare. Far to soft, it felt like that car is dengerous. It somehow also had a lower quality feel to it than UE legacys/outbacks.

I currently have a 06 legacy 3.0 and it drives really nice. My brother has a spec-b version and that thing is great. It has a super immediate reaction to steering input and stays perfectly flat in corners. Really great car.

I thing that if US legacy is really lacking a sport suspension option to show what the chassis and drivetrain are capable of.

Yes 3 series will understeer, but in general it will be neutral longer in a corner. But it you apply throttle in a 3 series you know what can happen. Subarus are simply safer. I think that if you want to drive fast and safe at the same time with a family car than there is nothing better than legacy at this moment.

Putting short and light boxer in front of a front axis, but transmission on the other side and making drive train light, simple and balanced is a perfect compromise for legacy class car.

And as far Buick Regal is concerned this is Opel Insignia in EU. Its a value not an upmarket product and its not that great in terms of handling. Its heavy and even with a turbo V6 its still slower than a H4 2.5T legacy.

[krzyss]

Well if you apply throttle in Legacy in inopportune time it will wag its tail as if it is RWD.

And it has this "lift throttle oversteer" too.

 

I would not say AWD is better handling than RWD, it is different.

 

One Polish rallye driver (Sobieslaw Zasada from 70s) said:

 

With what speed may you enter the turn?

Any speed, its the exiting which is the problem.

 

Krzys

[Kario]

Krzyss this is not complityli right. Subaru have have much more room for error. With 4x4 car power is split among all wheels so extra force from a drivetrain on each wheel is smaller. On each tire there is a smaller combined force (drivetrain force + lateral force from cornering). The same principle applies to engine braking in a corner. AWD car is much safer than RWD or FWD car in a corner.

There is also another advantage subaru has. Is has just enough understeer to let you know that you are going to fast in a corner and than becouse of AWD it gives you larger maring of error. If you are a skiller driver you can still induce oversteer and use it to your advantage.

RWD of course has its place, but for everyday driving subaru drivetrain is far superior in this application.

If I wanted a family car I would not even consider a RWD car.

So RWD and AWD are different and have their application but on a street in a family car you cannot do better than SAWD.

One more thing, at this point '11 impreza is about as fast as M3 on nurburring:

BMW M3 GTS - 7:48, 450PS version, lighter only 1546kg

BMW M3 (normal) - 8:05, 400PS, 1619kg

impreza '11 - 7:55, ~300PS (?), had a safety cage - heavier ?

This shows that AWD car like impreza can still be better on track that a RWD car that has much more power...

In normal driving conditions on a street M3 would not stand a chance...

[krzyss]

Was it STI with ~300PS or modified Impreza?

When you start comparing modified cars then only depth of the pocket is the limit.

 

When you write about superior Subaru SAWD (I assume Symmetric AWD), which system do you have in mind? The one with 90/10 split, manual 50/50 (nowadays without rear LSD), VTD (I think it is 45/55 split) or DCCD?

Not all AWD systems are created equal, even if they share the same marketing name.

 

Krzys

[Kario]

It was 2.0T japanise spec impreza, about 300PS. Minor suspension upgades.

I know how different subaru AWD systems differ. That is why I used SAWD term meaning itsa a symmetrical AWD with engine in front of a front axis and a transmission in behind of it. The differences between different subaru systems are not revelant to what I have described.