2010 Winter Tire Tests

[TSiWRX]

Again, Grandman, if you don't value test data, why did you originate the "2010 Tests" thread on NASIOC, in the first place?

 

It seems that you only like to cite things when they are in your favor - and you want to dispose of data when it's inconvenient and doesn't suit your thinking or your argument.

 

Your arguments are based solely on "your experience," which, conveniently, no-one else can challenge, as they are "your experience." But are your experiences actually valid, based on hard data - and can they be cross-validated via hard data?

 

Your logic simply fails to hold........

[Garandman]

Look, I think you two are well-intentioned. You completely missed the point of why I posted "thread failed" in NASIOC, and it was not about test data.

 

I'm not going to back through NASIOC and take snippets of your posts on snow tires - there are way too many of them: more than two thirds of your last 100 posts on NASIOC, anyway.

 

You completely dominate every thread on snow tires in at least two forums I'm aware of. You are usually the first one to respond to almost every post in almost every thread. Do you realize why people are putting snow tire threads in the regional forums?

 

If internet researching to snow tires is that important to you, and it benefits the Subaru community, knock yourself out.

 

If you agree that:

 

1. Some tire tests are better than others.

2. There are purchase considerations outside the tests.

 

Then we can have discourse.

 

I'm done buying for the season (I hope) so I'm pretty much done caring.

[TSiWRX]

Look, I think you two are well-intentioned. You completely missed the point of why I posted "thread failed" in NASIOC, and it was not about test data.

 

How did I miss the point?

 

You specifically said:

 

My intention was to make this a thread with the pertinent results of various winter tire reviews.

 

Yet, when I started cross-posting other test results, you said that the thread failed? Were you upset that someone else was pointing out other resources that were available?

 

Or was it about the data not being what you wanted or deemed valuable?

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2078358

 

How about answering some of those questions that yet remain on that thread? Oh, and BTW, it doesn't matter what you edit, because once someone "quotes" you, that's there to stay. Nor does it wipe out all record that you've initiated/originated the post.

 

And let's go back to the post above, too:

 

No, based on a lot of experience driving these tires, I offer that folks draw conclusions that are too definite from tests where the user is not given the raw test data. In short, some of the tests suck....

 

It seems one of you at least endlessly restates advice based on conclusions drawn on unknown assumptions. In the case of Consumer Reports, in response to a question on their forums, their rankings of tires includes data not shown in their tables.

 

So, basically, wtwwholesaletires's support of Nokian tires, based on Consumer Reports, is misguided, then, right?

 

Why did you not tell him that, on NASIOC? Is it because, then, that would prove as a good counter to "your experience?"

 

Again, your logic takes some really strange turns.

 

And what about the "Hakka R" question I've posed on pages 7 and 8 of this thread?

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/anyone-planning-trying-out-blizzak-ws-70i-142223p7.html

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/anyone-planning-trying-out-blizzak-ws-70i-142223p8.html

 

It's the strange logic that I have a hard time following.....

 

I'm not going to back through NASIOC and take snippets of your posts on snow tires - there are way too many of them: more than two thirds of your last 100 posts on NASIOC, anyway.

 

You completely dominate every thread on snow tires in at least two forums I'm aware of. You are usually the first one to respond to almost every post in almost every thread. Do you realize why people are putting snow tire threads in the regional forums?

 

^ People post where they think it's most appropriate - some don't like NASIOC as an "entity," and therefore tend to post to where they have local friends. It's the same here, and on virtually any of the larger Internet communities.

 

Whether such posts will get the necessary exposure, however, is dependent on if anything calls attention to them. While that's not to say that such placement is without validity - particularly since regional and even specifically-local weather will tremendously affect the validity of any responses given (my specific locale is a great example: when people say "Cleveland" and think about winter tires, they reflexively jerk to "Lake Effect Snow Belt;" but that's not the full story, as municipal roadway maintenance varies tremendously, and there exists both a primary as well as secondary snow belt which tracks through), but the lack of more intensive attention by the population at-large also means that replies will be limited.

 

When I ask a question, I typically go to the biggest and most diverse Forum community I can find - and supplement that with both a regional hail as well as will ask my local community, too, for their *specific* input.

 

If people are too intimidated to ask a question? I'd ask why...I've never made fun of anyone, for even the most seemingly obvious and easy questions: everyone's gotta start somewhere, and a missed question can well mean missed fundamentals: I interact with countless kids of every age, every day, and I know that, particularly for my undergrads, they do get so intimidated that they forget why they're there in the first place.

 

I welcome anyone to discuss tires with me - and that I base my recommendations on both my experiences (which is why I so rarely recommend "the one tire," as I simply don't feel comfortable recommending something over another, specifically, if I haven't had *extensive* experience with it) as well as by cross-confirming the facts via the many, many tire tests that are out there and available for us to sample from.

 

Besides, it's the Intr4w3b! Don't take it so seriously!

 

If internet researching to snow tires is that important to you, and it benefits the Subaru community, knock yourself out.

 

Isn't that what I'm doing?

 

No-one really has to read what I've written. They can just put me on "Ignore" or, heck, simply scroll through.

 

Tires - especially winter tires - are a hobby interest of mine. So are speed-detection countermeasures. So I participate in their discussion.

 

If you agree that:

 

1. Some tire tests are better than others.

2. There are purchase considerations outside the tests.

 

Then we can have discourse.

 

Oh, I agree completely.

 

For #1, that's the reason why we are all here - so that we can hammer out exactly what the implications of each of the tests really are: i.e. how we can actually apply what the test says towards our purchase decisions as well as cross-validate such data with others.

 

None of the data can be taken at face value, no matter how well-respected the testing authority.

 

But we cannot do is to simply throw away one or another test - or all of the tests - just because they don't fit what we think is the right picture in our minds, just because they don't jibe with our personal experiences. Instead, when that happens we have to ask "why." Is it because of something specific within the test parameters? or is it indicative more of the fact that we need to recalibrate our own thinking?

 

And as for #2, you're preaching to the choir.

 

I've always said that there are secondary concerns which can be just as valid: NVH, cost-to-performance ratio, personal habits (i.e. my friend in MD, to whom I've recommended the WRG2, because he cannot and will-not be bothered with swapping tires) - it's all things to consider.

 

But what is *not* valid are things such as brand-loyalty or other such subjectives. The numbers are the numbers, and there's no amount of wishful thinking that's going to change what they are.

[krzyss]

TSi+WRX, if you were paid by word you would be millionare.

 

I will admit it: I am compulsive winter tire poster. Sorry, I cannot help.

 

Well I am tire poster as summer tires will get my attention too (like somebody posting that summer tires suck in rain).

 

I do prefer tests with absolute numbers and relative scores. German magazines (and especially their Polish versions - I am quite fluent in both Polish and English) are main sources of such tests. It seems however that I should recall my knowledge of Cyrilic and some Russian as they have interesting tests too.

It is a shame that CR thinks that Americans are too ........... (fill with adjective of your choice) to give them raw numbers.

 

Krzys

 

Krzys

[ssbtech]

I think a lot of people rush to the tire shop in the middle of the first snowstorm and have installed whatever is in stock at the time. They're not thinking raw numbers, they're thinking "crap, I shouldn't have kept these all-seasons so long".

 

I don't know many car enthusiasts in real life and I'm pretty sure none of them are tire enthusiasts

 

If I had the cash I'd have three sets of tires on three sets of wheels. Something like the Pilot Sport AS Plus, a set of Hakkapelitta R for running around town in the winter and a set of Hakkapelitta 5 studded for traversing the rocky mountains in the winter.

 

But I don't have the cash so I just run around on WRG2s all year and hope to god it doesn't get icy

[krzyss]

:-)

 

Just like me in winter on Continental TS810.

 

Krzys

[outahere]

..........But sense we are offering opinions, I'll opine that you and WRX+LGT have made yourselves the resident "experts" on snow tire selection and bludgeon anyone who disagrees with your conclusions...........

 

I have never claimed to be an expert. Bludgeoned?:lol: You can't be serious. Show me one instance where I have "bludgeoned" someone for disagreeing with me.

 

Why don't you start a thread on subjective reviews of winter tires?

 

Better yet, start your own blog on the subject. That way you won't have to deal with views opposed to your own.

[TSiWRX]

TSi+WRX, if you were paid by word you would be millionare.

 

Far, far from it.

 

My wife says that I get diarrhea at the keyboard, and I'm truly and honestly inclined to agree. I really admire, instead, those people either with a natural ability to parse their narrative to be beautifully to the point, or, like my wife, have endured years of actual schooling and training to reach such refinement.

 

I'm partly paid to be verbose...say enough, and strangely, people just stop asking questions. :lol:

 

I will admit it: I am compulsive winter tire poster. Sorry, I cannot help.

 

Join our support group!!!!!

 

I think we must have something like a half-dozen of us, just here, and there's at least another 3 or 4 on NASIOC and SubaruForester.org.

 

Oh, wait, no such group exists!!!!

 

I sometimes think how crazy it would be, if we just all got together and got snowed-in in a cabin. We'd probably end up breaking out steak-knives and stabbing each other, because we'd be so heated from our debates on tires.

 

Well I am tire poster as summer tires will get my attention too (like somebody posting that summer tires suck in rain).

 

I'm slowly getting into the summer tire thing, but I find that my very restricted use of them (I've only recently become aware what a waste it truly is, to drive vehicles like ours in a sane [or even the occasionally insane] manner on public roads - without taking them to the racetrack) means that I don't come anywhere near their true performance edge.

 

Hopefully, the change that I've plotted in my future plans will allow me to reach the racetrack in the next couple of years, and that will definitely have me more in-depth into "near-race" tires.

 

I do prefer tests with absolute numbers and relative scores. German magazines (and especially their Polish versions - I am quite fluent in both Polish and English) are main sources of such tests. It seems however that I should recall my knowledge of Cyrilic and some Russian as they have interesting tests too.

 

^ I really envy guys like you and error, with your native-language abilities.

 

My current hope is that in the next few years, the Chinese enthusiast market will also see an upswing - which, given the (hopefully improving) infrastructure as well as climate (one of my colleagues is from Beijing, and she is an experienced ice/snow driver, due to the road conditions there in the winter), may make that an interesting winter tire market, and which hopefully will spur such testing in my native language.

 

Well, that's, of-course, given that I'd have to learn Chinese all over again, too.

 

It is a shame that CR thinks that Americans are too ........... (fill with adjective of your choice) to give them raw numbers.

 

^ I can see why they think that releasing the raw data either on their printed media may cause some confusion to lay readers, but I don't agree, at all, with their decision to simply keep them locked away. I, too, think that American enthusiasts and hobbyists are more than capable of reasonable and logical discussions of the hows and whys - and to be honest, I don't think that one even has to be an "enthusiast" or a "hobbyist" to be able to reason through the data: just good reading-comprehension and logic. As with you and many others, I also feel very disappointed that a testing authority with the reputation as well as, well, the authority of CR would not trust their readers to at least intelligently discuss the raw data.

 

 

 

-----

 

 

 

I think a lot of people rush to the tire shop in the middle of the first snowstorm and have installed whatever is in stock at the time. They're not thinking raw numbers, they're thinking "crap, I shouldn't have kept these all-seasons so long".

 

+ eleventybillion.

 

Some of us here start thinking about next season's winter tires as soon as the snow's melted from the past season - but for the vast majority of the public...at least in my local area...it seems that there's usually not nearly as much action as there should be, until *after* the first messy storm.

 

I don't know many car enthusiasts in real life and I'm pretty sure none of them are tire enthusiasts

 

Overall, I think that there are fewer winter tire enthusiasts than there are summer, particularly here in North America. I think that there's a lot of factors at-play. Two, however, jump to mind immediately.....

 

First, motorsports: ice-racing, compared to other motorsports venues, is still a much smaller community than their fair-weather counterparts. So while "summer" tire (to encompass everything from street-tires of the "extreme/max" performance categories - including bespoke as well as homologated-competition fitments - to near-R-compunds and R-compound race tires) gets dissected by the guys who AutoX, track, or even slam through the gears on the dragstrip, in terms of motorsports involvement, winter tires just don't see as much debate: and given ice-racing demands are sometimes *much* different from that of road-tires, that creates another impasse.

 

Second, like you said, even with car-guys/gals, by far the larger fraction falls into the fair-weather crowd. Be it show cars or exotics, or "just" really nicely customized (including performance) daily-drivers, many of us even have specific "winter beaters" - so let's face it, who would pay that much attention, to their non-fun cars? Overlay on this the fact that nearly half of the US really has no need for winter tires...well, it's not hard to see why there's so few of "us" out there.

 

But I don't have the cash so I just run around on WRG2s all year and hope to god it doesn't get icy

 

and

 

:-)

Just like me in winter on Continental TS810.

 

^ Hey, y'all would still be better off than the vast majority - particularly if you lived where winter tires are not a legal requirement.

 

 

----

 

 

I have never claimed to be an expert.

 

^ Yeah, but guys like me keep referring to guys like you as being one.

 

Bludgeoned?:lol: You can't be serious. Show me one instance where I have "bludgeoned" someone for disagreeing with me.

 

^ You know, this is very, very funny.....

 

One of our new students from a few years ago once came away looking kinda pale from an informal sit-down that me, my boss, and our (more his, as he's a higher-level scientist) colleague.

 

When we were out-of-earshot, I asked if she was OK.

 

She said yes, but that she was surprised at how vehement things got....

 

I was puzzled, and asked her, earnestly, "whut? :confused:"

 

Apparently, throwing data around - as if it's ammo - to support one's position in a discussion is something that those who are not accustomed to defending their stance in such a concrete way really find to be very disconcerting, and, apparently, slightly offensive.

 

So I explained that to my student, and reassured her that those two guys who were at each others' necks really were buddies, and that they *really* respected each other: and that's how scientists hash out their ideas. Bring hard data to the table - and heck, if you bring a piece of data that doesn't fit current thinking, all the better: if the data's sound, and takes us in another, new, uncharted direction, that's all the better! But bring data!!!!!

[09_Red_GT]

^What he said

[outahere]

...............I do prefer tests with absolute numbers and relative scores. German magazines (and especially their Polish versions - I am quite fluent in both Polish and English) are main sources of such tests. It seems however that I should recall my knowledge of Cyrilic and some Russian as they have interesting tests too.

It is a shame that CR thinks that Americans are too ........... (fill with adjective of your choice) to give them raw numbers.............

 

Krzys

 

Sort of related to the above,

 

I was looking at snow acceleration test results from Tire Rack and Consumer Reports for some UHPAS tires. They tested the same tires, of the same speed ratings, in the same size of 225/40-18. TR tested with a RWD BMW, CR tested with a FWD Chevy (Cruze?).

TR tested acceleration from 0-12mph, CR tested at 5-20mph. Their results did not agree with one another:

 

 

TR score CR score

 

Continental Extreme Contact DWS 153.6 good

 

Goodyear Eagle F1 AS 116.0 fair

 

Michelin Pilot Sport AS Plus 100.0 good

 

Bridgestone RE960 AS Pole Position 72.7 good

 

 

Neither TR or CR provided the raw data, in seconds. In this case, I am inclined to put a lot more faith in the TR data, because they did additional snow testing that CR did not do: snow braking, snow handling lap, and snow accel with traction control off. These additional TR snow tests mirrored the TR ranking shown above.

 

 

Another CR test result that has puzzled me is that when they tested the Blizzak LM60 and Blizzak WS60, in size 225/40-18, they were both given a score of "excellent" for braking on ice from 10 mph. Huh??? The WS60 has the special outer layer with microbits and microtubules to enhance ice traction, so I can see why it received a rating of "excellent". The LM60 has no such outer layer, and so it is hard to believe that it is the equal of the WS60 on ice. What's up with that CR? (TR did not test the LM60 vs WS60 for ice braking, but they did do an ice acceleration test, to 60ft. The LM60 required 4.715 sec to cover the distance, the WS60 required 3.939 sec).

 

I find it difficult to have total confidence in the winter tire testing that CR does.

[TSiWRX]

The CR data really throws me...and you know me, I like to look at ways to make data correlate. I'm having a really hard time doing it, though, with this year's CR, even after both you and brother krzyss posted details/links which further discuss (or not, rather! ) their protocols and criteria.

 

What I seem to remember of the criteria used that could explain why both the LM and WS60s were given "excellent" ice scores is that CR's 5-point scale findings relate only to cross-examination of tires within their specific sub-genre: i.e. a "Performance Winter" versus a fellow "Performance Winter," and a "Studless Ice & Snow" only to its fellow "Studless Ice & Snow." My personal feeling, however, is that while that's all good, they truly need to better note this consideration, when posting their results - particularly in graphical format - so as to prevent confusion (and especially that of those who may just pop in to their local library or look at on-line rips of the .jpg/.gif of just the testing result graphics) in the general consumer population.

 

Now, granted, I have not yet driven the LM60.

 

But by having driven the WS70 and the Dunlop 3D - and hell, even the Xi2 can be put into this mix - I can well say that Bridgestone's proprietary layer on their dual-layer friction tires really is damn near magical: and by extension from that observation alone, I really cannot believe that both the LM60 and WS60 should be rated the same.

[outahere]

...............What I seem to remember of the criteria used that could explain why both the LM and WS60s were given "excellent" ice scores is that CR's 5-point scale findings relate only to cross-examination of tires within their specific sub-genre: i.e. a "Performance Winter" versus a fellow "Performance Winter," and a "Studless Ice & Snow" only to its fellow "Studless Ice & Snow." ..............

 

You are only 1/4 right.

 

The LM60 vs WS60 data was from Nov 2010, but in the Nov 2009 issue of the CR magazine, they wrote:

 

".........our tire ratings are now designed so that you can compare the individual performance of one type of tire with another. For example, you can compare the ratings of all-season and winter tires to see how much dry and wet grip you give up with winter tires in return for better snow and ice traction. The overall score, however, is still relative to each tire category."

 

In the 2009 test they tested sixty nine 215/60-16 tires, including ice & snow tires, performance winters, 1 all-weather, performance all seasons, and standard all seasons. Only the XIce Xi2 and Graspic DS-2 had ice braking scores of "excellent", and that score was relative to all the other 67 tires, and not just to the 17 winter tires. The all-weather Nokian WRG2 and the WS60 had ice scores of "very good". Unexpectedly, seven out of 52 of the all-season tires also had an ice braking score of "very good" (none scored excellent).

[GTTuner]

I found this on CNN this AM.

 

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-529614?hpt=Sbin

[TSiWRX]

^

 

 

-----

 

 

 

You are only 1/4 right.

 

^ Holy crap, I'm soooooooooo confused! :lol: Thankyee for the corrections!

 

What I should do is to stop over in the mags/rags section at the library, and just Xeroxx those articles.

 

But OK, now that I've read that excerpt of the bodytext, man, I'm *really* confused as to how they do their stuff....

[outahere]

I was reading a few of the customer reviews of the Continental Extreme Winter Contact at Tirerack. This is what I learned:

 

"These tires are awesome on snow"

"These tires are disappointing on snow"

"These tires stick like glue on ice"

"These tires suck on ice"

"These tires are amazingly quiet"

"These tires are noisy"

"These tires handle solidly on dry pavement"

"These tires handle like they are made of marshmallows"

"These tires are amazing on wet pavement"

"These tires are slippery on wet pavement"

 

[TSiWRX]

Cars are awesome on snow!

-A.L.

-Cleveland, Ohio

[outahere]

............I will admit it: I am compulsive winter tire poster. Sorry, I cannot help.

 

Well I am tire poster as summer tires will get my attention too (like somebody posting that summer tires suck in rain).

 

I do prefer tests with absolute numbers and relative scores. German magazines (and especially their Polish versions - I am quite fluent in both Polish and English) are main sources of such tests..........Krzys

 

Krzys, do you know which class of tires is most popular in central Europe during the non-winter months? Summers, all-season, or all-weather?

[krzyss]

Well I am in US since 95 and I am a little disconnected from current realities.

But...

It seems that in my and my wife's families everybody uses winter and summer tires.

I do not think that I saw studded tires but I am from large city (Gdynia - 200,000) that is part of even larger metropolitan area (Tricity - Trojmiasto - 1,000,000) which lies just by the Baltic sea. I can say no word about Polish mountain driving or any other part of Poland.

When I was visiting many times I notice people driving on summer tires in winter (quite new WRX in the middle of very cold winter 0F -20C in Warsaw on summer Dunlop SP9000) - if you can afford WRX in Poland money should not be a problem for winter setup) but much more often I saw cars with winter tires in the middle of summer (maybe they were wearing them down after getting to 6/32" or maybe not).

All seasons and all weather were not that popular but it seems that all seasons are making come back.

 

Krzys

[TSiWRX]

From what I understand - second hand, unfortunately - of Europe's tire-culture, it seems that the "all-season" is a distinctly North American concept.

 

This was further reinforced in Dubai, where it seemed that "all-seasons" were referred to as an exclusively North-American concept that the rest of the world doesn't really take after.

 

How true that is, though, I honestly don't know - I don't really trust my own second-hand information ( that's what happens when you've been trained, ever since you went to school, to question the source of the data ), and although I neither doubt the Michelin personnel nor have any reason to believe that they would have anything to gain, in that specific crowd, by referring to "all-season" tires in such a manner, they remain, nevertheless, a biased/vested-interest source.

[RabidWombat]

Summer tires are all-seasons in Dubai!

[TSiWRX]

^ As long as I don't have to stay there for their summer, I'm all for living there.

[outahere]

^ so what is the deal with breaking in winter tires?

 

From Continental Tire:

 

 

"New tires have to be driven a few hundred miles on dry roads to rid the tread of parting agents and antioxidants applied during production. Not until the tread has been slightly roughened will the tire be able to make its true gripping power felt........................................................................

 

You are thus well advised to exercise care with new tires. And keep in mind that winter tires fresh out of the factory will need a bit of time to attain full winter suitability."

[outahere]

This link (also posted elsewhere I am sure) is not to a tire test, but it is very relevant to purchasing winter tires. It is a very good article about what the "snowflake in a mountain" symbol on the sidewall really tells the consumer (hint: not that much). For instance, a winter tire does not have to pass any kind of ice traction test to get the snowflake approval.

 

http://www.tirereview.com/Article/75478/with_changing_technology_oe_focus_do_old_winter_tire_standards_need_updating.aspx

 

.............

 

Here is a little more on the snowflake controversy:

http://www.wheels.ca/Tire%20Talk/article/196342

[outahere]

The Dunlop Winter Sport 3D has been named "Winter Tyre of the Year" by the UK website Tyre Reviews.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2010-Tyre-Reviews-Awards.htm

 

Pretty impressive for a tire that has been on the market for the last 3 (?) years, and is being challenged by newer designs.

[ssbtech]

Pirelli scorpion ice & snow on a Nissan Pathfinder are apparantly no match for strong crosswinds when driving on ice. A friend recently had the car slide off the icy freeway when strong crosswinds picked up.

 

Then again I suppose nothing short of studded tires would have done the trick.