Advice on water/methanol injection. Who has it/what do you think?

[rao]

I have read that WI is a really bad idea.

[legacyurabus]

I have read that WI is a really bad idea.

 

 

duh, and so is not putting your car off and on jack stands every other day

 

but of course you know all about that http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108079

[LosAngelesLGT]

rao, i think thats the first serious post you've made in 4 years.

 

What is bizzare is that other people make comments about his serious posts even more often than he makes sarcastic posts. I am fairly certain he was switched back to serious just to keep us on our toes:lol:.

[rao]

I thought an experiment was in order and I now have the results

[mwiener2]

I now have the results

 

No one cares, whatever you do?

[NSFW]

I've been thinking a lot lately about getting an Aquamist system strictly for safety. Mostly water, with just enough meth to keep the tank and nozzles from freezing at 0F in the winter.

 

I want to run the same tune with and without injection, and basically injecting just a bit less than whatever causes a measurable decrease in power. If the system fails, no big deal. While it's working, the engine ought to be making the same power as usual but with a bigger safety margin.

 

And yeah, I'd probably do a meth-for-power tune just for grins. How could I not? But I pretty sure I'll keep running my regular tune for the other 360+ days a year.

 

<= one of the planet's three surviving LGTs with bigger-than-20G turbos

 

I'd much rather inject based on MAF or IDC rather than boost, for the sake of keeping a consistent water-to-fuel ratio. Boost-based means higher water-to-fuel at peak torque, and lower at redline, and I have a hard time believing that's ideal. So, Aquamist.

[legacyurabus]

I've been thinking a lot lately about getting an Aquamist system strictly for safety. Mostly water, with just enough meth to keep the tank and nozzles from freezing at 0F in the winter.

 

I want to run the same tune with and without injection, and basically injecting just a bit less than whatever causes a measurable decrease in power. If the system fails, no big deal. While it's working, the engine ought to be making the same power as usual but with a bigger safety margin.

 

And yeah, I'd probably do a meth-for-power tune just for grins. How could I not? But I pretty sure I'll keep running my regular tune for the other 360+ days a year.

 

<= one of the planet's three surviving LGTs with bigger-than-20G turbos

 

I'd much rather inject based on MAF or IDC rather than boost, for the sake of keeping a consistent water-to-fuel ratio. Boost-based means higher water-to-fuel at peak torque, and lower at redline, and I have a hard time believing that's ideal. So, Aquamist.

 

 

You mean 1 of 4 with bigger then 20g =p

[jtmvt]

So I have gone back and forth on Switching to FMIC or keeping the TMIC and adding water/Meth Injection. ( I have an AVO 380 with all needed supporting mods)

 

I think I have decided on the water/meth. Here are a few questions, and with all my post I prefer first hand experience (white tiger, Rao, the usual well respected crew). There hasnt been much said on this particular site about this topic so I hope to get some facts for everyone to share.

 

1.Some kits talk about water some talk about meth. Dont they all use a 50/50 mixture of both? Also How much truth is there that you can use windshield washer fluid? If you was to mix your own, where can we by methanol from?

 

2. Im pretty sure I want a progressive system (right?) The prices seem to vary from $400.00-$900.00 Im leaning towards SMC Enterprises, Labonte MotorSports, or possibly the AEM kit. Who has used what and any regrets with your kit?

 

For what it's worth, I had a meth kit installed in my car when I bought it along with a TMIC. I had it removed and went from the TMIC to a FMIC instead due to intermittent problems with the meth kit. A meth kit adds a whole other mechanical/electrical system to your car, along with it's own set of complications. If you don't mind that and have someone compentant to work on potential complications, by all means go for it. It definitely adds a "fun factor" when it's working properly.

[mpiotro]

I have been running a Labonte system and am very happy with the support I received during self-install. Mine is just a simple boost based system running 50/50 mix and I WAS able to mount mine in the back left corner of the engine bay to the left and above the downpipe. No issues at all related to heat from the exhaust/turbo. I had it tuned very mildly starts spraying at 7psi to full spray at 15psi (it scales itself automatically between these 2 boost settings) and sprays at 100% at anything above 15psi. I read up on the simple Boost controllers vs load based controllers and while I fundamentally agree with the superiority of a load based controller, I wonder what the actual calculated fluid differential is between a fancy $300 controller and my $89 controller. I have no doubt that the $300 controller is more precise in it's metering. I also have access to a $8000 Sartorius scale but I would have a hard time justifying it's use to confirm the weight of my MickyD's Quarter Pounder.

 

While I agree meth creates a new system to fail, I like it and recommend it for someone who is handy and is willing to check for leaks, etc. The quality of the install will go a LONG way towards the system's ability to stay functional.

 

Obviously, you will need a pro tune if you decide to run meth.

 

I have a stage 2+ car. Perrin TMIC + VF40/18G + meth.

FWIW- all tune below are VERY safe- I probably could have gotten more out of both run 9 and run 15, but I wanted a good safe tune, not bragging rights)

 

 

Attached dyno (Dynojet at TopSpeed in Alpharetta, GA)

run 1 = generic Stage 2 starter map

run 9= final 93 pump run (270WHP/295WTQ)

run 15= final 93 pump + 50/50 meth (288WHP/314WTQ)

 

Also- Meth has other benefits besides POWA...nice clean combustion chamber with no hot spots... And with my Perrin TMIC, no perceivable heatsoak in the lovely 90 degree temps and 90% humidity of GA. It's like night and day with the meth in the heat of the day during the summer.

[j255c]

I used the labonte kit as well, its simple design and great customer support make me believe its the best kit out there besides the high tech aquamist. Had a set spray of 7 all the way to 28.

[NSFW]

You mean 1 of 4 with bigger then 20g =p

 

There are FOUR?

[j255c]

There are plenty more, gt30> is when the results start diminishing.

[NSFW]

I know. That was a joke.

[jfg22557]

Just invested in a Snow Performance stage 2 MAP based BoostCooler kit.

Planning on using it as more of a safety measure (as NSFW had spoke of) than just simply for another power booster. But of course, thats in the plan as well:D (to a logical extent).

 

My question however is (and Im sure it'll be ridden with subjectivity), the snow stg 2 boost cooler kit has the capability to use a MAF based controller, which from some of my reading in this and other threads, I hear may be favorable. Could anyone give me and explanation as to why one would want a MAF based controller over MAP or boost based?

 

also, planning on filling my oem windshield washer fluid tank with boost juice. Dont want to deal with the hassle of a trunk mounted tank

[NSFW]

Boost-based injection works, and it's the most common type, but I doubt it's ideal. Look at a dyno chart, and the shapes of the boost and horsepower curves, and keep in mind that power and airflow are roughly proportional to one another:

 

http://www.efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&hp=1&torque=1&boost=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=802&rgb1=000000255

 

The water spray rate for a boost-based system would early and remain flat or even taper as RPM goes up... while airflow is increasing. I don't know what the ideal water-to-air ratio is, but I really doubt that the ideal ratio is 'richest' (most water per unit of air) in the midrange and 'leanest' (least water per unit of air) at redline.

 

Like I said, boost-based works, but I strongly suspect that MAF-based or IDC-based would work better. I'm very curious if there are any tuners out there that have tuned a boost-bases system and optimized for just midrange or just redline, and how much of a tradeoff there is.

 

It seems like if you tune for the best ratio at midrange you'll be spraying significantly less than that ideal ratio at redline. Or, if the ratio is just right at redline, it will be spraying significantly more than the ideal ratio in the midrange.

[lepich]

Found few days ago that my old labonte pump (150 psi) stopped working. No damage, thanks for fail-safe. Now, wondering do they still sell pumps and other stuff?

Website seems to work fine, but i do not see any activity from Labonte MotorSports on legacyGT.com..

Are they still in business?

[ece_tim]

Also- Meth has other benefits besides POWA...nice clean combustion chamber with no hot spots... And with my Perrin TMIC, no perceivable heatsoak in the lovely 90 degree temps and 90% humidity of GA. It's like night and day with the meth in the heat of the day during the summer.

This is a major reason for my interest. My power is seriously sucked down in the South FL heat. This plus an aftermarket TMIC, turbo, injectors seems like a very consistent setup that might require more steady-state maintenance, but provides some good benefits. Everything's a tradeoff of course.

 

Keep this thread going, I'm curious to hear more feedback

[lepich]

I am going to install a second sprayer pre-turbo, will see how it will help to cool the charge. Anyone here tried doing this?

 

M5 after IC and M2 pre-turbo (VF40).

 

What i was read it makes turbo to work more efficient, and can even get IC below ambient temps.

 

I do not think it will damage the turbo, m2 is not much to inject through. well, if it will damage, i would be happy to replace it with a bigger WRX-style :-)

 

 

 

Waiting for stuff (250psi pump and second nozzle kit) to be arrived from labonte..

[wsmith30132]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/nitrous-alcohol-water-injection/357234-pre-compressor-methanol-injection-4.html

 

There are some interesting results in this thread. Dont know if you have seen it or not.

[lepich]

Great info, thank you^^^!

[ripsweetness]

Just thanking the guys that chirped in with good advice on this thread. I have had some car problems of late and have decided to take my car to P&L to diagnose problem (praying its just a vac leak) if its a minor fix Im having them install a Meth kit and then a tune. After that Im done with go fast parts...unless the engines fails .

Just so you know I want to thank Rao the most ( just buttering ya up for the next time )

[rao]

glad you found it helpful, but I must tell you that I have read bad things about water injection.....

[ripsweetness]

no, No, NO!!! lol.

[ripsweetness]

Car is at P&L as I write this. All my misfires and codes seem to have been from vacumm leaks in the system. Next is the Aquamist Meth kit. I wanted a cheaper kit but I guess the tuner will only tune the Aquamist? Not happy about this but the car is already there (7hr drive). After the kit is installed on the dyno it goes for a tune. Any guesses on power out put. (yes you will have to go back and read the beginning of this post to see my current mods) in short its a AVO 380,TMIC with all supporting mods. My guess 320HP 330TQ but with the power being more in the 4-5k RPM.

[underpowerd]

^ which kit did you get? don't worry, any buyers remorse you might be anticipating will evaporate very quickly. congrats