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Advice on water/methanol injection. Who has it/what do you think?


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^ which kit did you get? don't worry, any buyers remorse you might be anticipating will evaporate very quickly. congrats :)

 

I think it was the HFS-3 or maybe the 6 like yours? Again Im really ignorant to this kit because my research went into another kit. So I may not even have the name correct. It was the one for about $700.00 if that helps lol

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I think it was the HFS-3 or maybe the 6 like yours? Again Im really ignorant to this kit because my research went into another kit. So I may not even have the name correct. It was the one for about $700.00 if that helps lol

 

cool, ~700 doesn't sound like the -6, but all the AM kits are nice.

 

one thing to do is to check whether you have an earlier/later supplied kit; just look at your fittings. i believe all later supplied AM kits eschew (plastic) quick-fits for all metal compression. it's very good peace of mind to replace all the quick-fit type fittings with compression type asap -- not that they're going to jump off on you, but i've seen some develop small leaks over time depending on line entry orientation. just drop richard an email with your intention to do so, you'll see how all companies should work ;)

 

also be sure to loom the lines in the engine bay if not done already; double up in the hot zones.

good luck, anxious to see results :)

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cool, ~700 doesn't sound like the -6, but all the AM kits are nice.

 

one thing to do is to check whether you have an earlier/later supplied kit; just look at your fittings. i believe all later supplied AM kits eschew (plastic) quick-fits for all metal compression. it's very good peace of mind to replace all the quick-fit type fittings with compression type asap -- not that they're going to jump off on you, but i've seen some develop small leaks over time depending on line entry orientation. just drop richard an email with your intention to do so, you'll see how all companies should work ;)

 

also be sure to loom the lines in the engine bay if not done already; double up in the hot zones.

good luck, anxious to see results :)

 

Thanks for all the support and good advice. I will be sure to post the results as soon as I get them. Im thinking another 2 weeks

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So I’m learning as I go. So far I’m still loving P&L but I’m always skeptical when chargers arise that hadn’t been brought up prior to install. There saying they need to pull the (Brand new) plugs and change the gap to accommodate the Meth. Otherwise it will run like crap. $150-ish and they will do a compression test while the plugs are out? Any opinions?

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Unless you want the peace of mind of a compression test, that seems rather high. They're already working on the car, I imagine you're spending a lot of coin with them, this seems rather punitive. And if they are the Subaru experts they say, it shouldn't take them ~2 hours to change plugs.
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That is BS. A compression test is always a good time, but changing the gap is silly, unless you are running more methanol/water than you should be.

 

Thanks Rao. sadly I just got the call that the engine is already tired (29,9xx miles) The compression was about 125psi at each cylinder (about 25 psi low) so Im not going to do the Aquamist kit. I’m just gonna pick the car up and re-think what I want to do next...kinda sad but Im thinking of parting it out and getting rid of it.

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that low on 29k miles? how bad did the car get beat on?

 

I dont think I beat on it really. I never launched the car from a stand still. Always changed the oil on time. The most abuse it ever recieved was bringing it to redline before shifts once in awhile.

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I dont think I beat on it really. I never launched the car from a stand still. Always changed the oil on time. The most abuse it ever recieved was bringing it to redline before shifts once in awhile.

 

 

wow, i have beat the piss out mine and i have 120k miles on it so far. knocks on wood.

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Thanks Rao. sadly I just got the call that the engine is already tired (29,9xx miles) The compression was about 125psi at each cylinder (about 25 psi low) so Im not going to do the Aquamist kit. I’m just gonna pick the car up and re-think what I want to do next...kinda sad but Im thinking of parting it out and getting rid of it.

 

I wouldn't pull the engine and throw it out just yet.

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I wouldn't pull the engine and throw it out just yet.

 

Not gonna pull it at all. I was married when I bought a "performance" sedan to modify. I never really loved the body style but it was the best all around sedan I could find for under $30k (paid 25k). So I worked with it. Well since then I have seen the light (AKA divorced) and have been looking for something more my style.

 

1. Audi S5

 

2. BMW 335 IS

 

3.Nissan 370

 

Now that there is a possibility of a bum engine Im thinking I would rather start with a fresh platform than dump $5-7 grand in my engine.

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FWIW, none of those cars are good to modify. All of those motors are very temperamental and are $$$ to modify.

 

The Audi may be the exception - IIRC their turbo motors respond well to simple mods.

 

The BMW's cost thousands just to do a computer tune and exhaust, and the high pressure fuel pump for the direct injection is finicky at stock levels as it is.

 

The VQ motors are pretty much maxed out as it is, so adding FI is tricky since you're dealing with a high compression motor.

 

If you want to mod, I would look elsewhere. Those are good cars NOT to mod ;)

 

Corvette, CTS-V or G8 GXP perhaps? ;)

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FWIW, none of those cars are good to modify. All of those motors are very temperamental and are $$$ to modify.

 

The Audi may be the exception - IIRC their turbo motors respond well to simple mods.

 

The BMW's cost thousands just to do a computer tune and exhaust, and the high pressure fuel pump for the direct injection is finicky at stock levels as it is.

 

The VQ motors are pretty much maxed out as it is, so adding FI is tricky since you're dealing with a high compression motor.

 

If you want to mod, I would look elsewhere. Those are good cars NOT to mod ;)

 

Corvette, CTS-V or G8 GXP perhaps? ;)

 

I did a little research as well. I think the BMW (twin turbo) must have some tuning potential but expensive to tune. Audi seems to be maxed out but they will bring the RS5 our way in another year or two. 370Z like our car probably will need a built engine to handle any real power but they already make turbo kits for it. Im going to break down and look at the new mustang and camaro as well. Both should have huge aftermarket potential.

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I did a little research as well. I think the BMW (twin turbo) must have some tuning potential but expensive to tune. Audi seems to be maxed out but they will bring the RS5 our way in another year or two. 370Z like our car probably will need a built engine to handle any real power but they already make turbo kits for it. Im going to break down and look at the new mustang and camaro as well. Both should have huge aftermarket potential.
They should indeed and the new 5.0L in the Mustang is sick. But the Camaro is way too much of a pig for my tastes.

 

Consider a lightly used Pontiac G8 GXP. The 6-speed version has the LS3 motor out of the Vette. ~430HP out of the box, and you'll put 400+ to the wheels with headers and a tune.

 

V8 is a whole different experience than these little turbo fours :wub:

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They should indeed and the new 5.0L in the Mustang is sick. But the Camaro is way too much of a pig for my tastes.

 

Consider a lightly used Pontiac G8 GXP. The 6-speed version has the LS3 motor out of the Vette. ~430HP out of the box, and you'll put 400+ to the wheels with headers and a tune.

 

V8 is a whole different experience than these little turbo fours :wub:

 

Ha, agreed. I just loved the look on the guys in V-8's when they try to pass on the highway and I pull away from them. Theses little suckers just dont hold up though. V-8 can easily hold the power Im looking for. Yes the Camaro is huge but Im going to take a look, I doubt it will make my "serious " list though. Do you know the ball park price on the G8 GXP?

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GXP's were $40K new, I want to say I'd seen some in the $30K range used? They won't be cheap, but it's the best way to get 430HP, a 6-speed and a sedan in the same vehicle :)

 

Corvette's are a ridiculous value as well. A C5 Z06 (early 2000 model years) runs low $20K and up. 400HP, ~3000 lbs, 50/50 weight, ridiculous performance. You can step up to a C6 (05+ model years) for upper $20K's, which will be about 9/10's as fast as a C5 Z06 but more comfortable and nicer inside. Looks better too, IMO.

 

I'm missing my 06 GTO a bit :icon_cry:

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GXP's were $40K new, I want to say I'd seen some in the $30K range used? They won't be cheap, but it's the best way to get 430HP, a 6-speed and a sedan in the same vehicle :)

 

Corvette's are a ridiculous value as well. A C5 Z06 (early 2000 model years) runs low $20K and up. 400HP, ~3000 lbs, 50/50 weight, ridiculous performance. You can step up to a C6 (05+ model years) for upper $20K's, which will be about 9/10's as fast as a C5 Z06 but more comfortable and nicer inside. Looks better too, IMO.

 

I'm missing my 06 GTO a bit :icon_cry:

 

Hey I appreciate the insight. I couldnt bring myself to buy a corvette. I think there great looking cars but there everywhere. Thats why Im reluctant on the mustang, again thats going to be a great car but Its going to be everywhere. For the life of me I cant see why the GTO didnt sell better than it did. That was a great car that nobody wanted. The G8 seems to be the very same way. Im going to look into the GXP for sure.

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I understand on the Corvette and Stang part. Part of that is why I got a GTO, then the Legacy. You don't see many around :)

 

I think I will give in and be in a Vette next. You just can't beat amazing handling, ridiculous power, AND 28 MPG on the highway.

 

The GTO's were too bland for most - the styling is very un-inspiring. But the interior is ridiculously comfortable and lined with quality materials. The only thing I hated about the GTO was the weight. Handling was a meh at best and I averaged 17 MPG lifetime. But if you put good tires on her (no all seasons) and get some more camber up front, she'll turn in a good deal better.

 

You can find a GTO for dirt cheap. 05-06 for well under $20K, leaving plenty of room for a suspension (which will be needed) and tires.

 

http://g8board.com and http://ls1gto.com are some good sites for each vehicle

 

And a 1st gen CTS-V can be had with the LS2 motor and a 6-speed. Not as nice as the new CTS-V, and it did have a few issues, but it's another of the rare powerful, manual transmission sedans.

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You will definitely have trouble with parts. Not sure if you know, the GTO and G8's actually come from Australia. They're based on chassis' designed by Holden; GM's Australian subsidiary.

 

The drivetrain is 100% solid and you'll always find parts for it. The engine and tranny are used in numerous other vehicles and you have lots of replacement options.

 

G8 specific parts will be tougher 5-10 years down the road, but GXP parts will be the hardest. AFAIK, GXP specific stuff would be dampers, bushings, sway bars, brakes, wheels and a few specific aesthetic add-ons. Most everything else is shared with the regular G8, which has a much wider production run obviously.

 

For less commonly stocked parts, they may take longer to get as sometimes they literally have to come from Australia.

 

As for it being a Pontiac, it would be best if you had a former-Pontiac dealer in your area for any specific service issues. Just because the brand is gone, doesn't mean the service departments that worked on them are ;) And keep in mind that as part of their selling a car, they have to keep parts in production for years after each model run. So while parts will get scarce, as will those who have specific experience working on the G8's, they aren't going to disappear overnight.

 

I actually got to drive my friend's GXP recently. I would say it is by far the best performance sedan you'll get for your money. The LS3 is just an amazing engine, as the LS2 was in my GTO. The suspension is a little softer than I figured; it is perfectly comfortable IMO, but the car could use stiffer dampers and springs to control the ~3900 lbs of heft. Also, it definitely needs more aggressive pads and stainless brake steel hoses - the pedal was surprisingly spongy. The clutch uptake was weird, but I'm ruined by the LGT's terrible clutch.

 

I guess I expected the car to be "perfect" out of the box. Maybe an M5 would be. But we're talking bang for the buck ;)

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You will definitely have trouble with parts. Not sure if you know, the GTO and G8's actually come from Australia. They're based on chassis' designed by Holden; GM's Australian subsidiary.

 

The drivetrain is 100% solid and you'll always find parts for it. The engine and tranny are used in numerous other vehicles and you have lots of replacement options.

 

G8 specific parts will be tougher 5-10 years down the road, but GXP parts will be the hardest. AFAIK, GXP specific stuff would be dampers, bushings, sway bars, brakes, wheels and a few specific aesthetic add-ons. Most everything else is shared with the regular G8, which has a much wider production run obviously.

 

For less commonly stocked parts, they may take longer to get as sometimes they literally have to come from Australia.

 

As for it being a Pontiac, it would be best if you had a former-Pontiac dealer in your area for any specific service issues. Just because the brand is gone, doesn't mean the service departments that worked on them are ;) And keep in mind that as part of their selling a car, they have to keep parts in production for years after each model run. So while parts will get scarce, as will those who have specific experience working on the G8's, they aren't going to disappear overnight.

 

I actually got to drive my friend's GXP recently. I would say it is by far the best performance sedan you'll get for your money. The LS3 is just an amazing engine, as the LS2 was in my GTO. The suspension is a little softer than I figured; it is perfectly comfortable IMO, but the car could use stiffer dampers and springs to control the ~3900 lbs of heft. Also, it definitely needs more aggressive pads and stainless brake steel hoses - the pedal was surprisingly spongy. The clutch uptake was weird, but I'm ruined by the LGT's terrible clutch.

 

I guess I expected the car to be "perfect" out of the box. Maybe an M5 would be. But we're talking bang for the buck ;)

 

Yes Im familiar with the Australian company. I actually was holding out for the G8 GT way back when I seen it at the NY auto show. They postponed the release date and then I found out they wouldn’t offer manual so I jumped ship to Subaru. While I was researching the G8 I found lots of videos about the Holden cars over there. I heard rumor of the GXP coming but had already bought my legacy so stopped following it and honestly forgot about its existance.

Hey this car might be an investment. Less than 2000 were ever made and they will become very hard to find. Maybe I should buy two :lol:. I’m really appreciating all of your input on this. It’s nice to have someone else’s insight on this. Now I just need to commit and tear down my subaru...Im going to miss her though:wub:

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  • 5 years later...
Boost-based injection works, and it's the most common type, but I doubt it's ideal. Look at a dyno chart, and the shapes of the boost and horsepower curves, and keep in mind that power and airflow are roughly proportional to one another:

 

http://www.efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&hp=1&torque=1&boost=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=802&rgb1=000000255

 

The water spray rate for a boost-based system would early and remain flat or even taper as RPM goes up... while airflow is increasing. I don't know what the ideal water-to-air ratio is, but I really doubt that the ideal ratio is 'richest' (most water per unit of air) in the midrange and 'leanest' (least water per unit of air) at redline.

 

Like I said, boost-based works, but I strongly suspect that MAF-based or IDC-based would work better. I'm very curious if there are any tuners out there that have tuned a boost-bases system and optimized for just midrange or just redline, and how much of a tradeoff there is.

 

It seems like if you tune for the best ratio at midrange you'll be spraying significantly less than that ideal ratio at redline. Or, if the ratio is just right at redline, it will be spraying significantly more than the ideal ratio in the midrange.

 

Old thread but:

 

And I strongly suspect this is the reason why 100% methanol shows that much power over water only, because most of the systems that tested it are boost based. Water doesn't burn, so dumping a whole lot in midrange would cause misfires in that region, even though the top end would love it. Now because methanol burns, it will get away with dumping a whole lot in the midrange just to get t other right amount at redline.

 

Not saying that meth wouldn't be more powerful either way, just saying it would be less of margin between the two.

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