New Subaru variant of Subyota Coupe will not get AWD

[Stang70Fastback]

I appologize ahead of time for not having read this entire thread (busy today) but my $.02 is quite simply that Subaru would have had an interesting vehicle if it was AWD. I test drove a Genesis Coupe the other day (got it sideways on the highway, lol, POWERRRRRR) and the only reason I wouldn't buy one is because I want to have AWD for the weather. This car looked like the only solution for me...

[Viber]

If Subaru can pull their head out their ass, and offer a small coupe that can scare BMW 135i owners, at around 30k loaded with at the very least Mazda3 class tech, then Subaru will have a real screamer on their hands, even if it is RWD

 

Besides, its good for Subaru to branch out a bit. Better RWD than FWD.

 

RWD will keep the cost down as well

[NSFW]

Somewhere at Subaru HQ is a person who decided it would be more profitable to throw out a branding campaign that's been successful for years, and compete against established players like the Miata and S2000, not to mention the new Genesis (and maybe the Rx8 too?). ....instead of strengthening that successful brand and competing against the Audi TT, but with a substantial price advantage and a history of building more-reliable cars.

 

Good call there, champ. This person must be identified and fired.

[Guest]

I always marvel at how people discuss business & marketing aspects of car manufactures. WTF anyone would care?

 

Should not we instead care if car manufacturers make interesting and fun to drive cars rather than worrying if they "fit the image" or "make enough money"?

 

I personally could not care less about brand image, and dubious marketing strategies. A lightweight, balanced RWD coupe would be right up my alley. Current Subaru AWD system equals handicapped handling and extra weight, and I would have no interest (nor anyone who really cares about handling) in such car unless the AWD was seriously reworked which isn't in the cards for this car.

 

If the car lives up to the hype and is RWD I might consider getting it instead of an Elise

[katalyst]

^ thats kind of my problem with that cause there are already some very good lightweight balanced RWD coupes on the market already, why would i want to get a subaru version of that?

 

as mentioned already, if i was looking for that, i would get a miata or s2000; maybe even an elise if was in that market segment but if subaru was able to create a lightweight coupe with their AWD know-how it would really be something else

[Guest]

What lightweight coupes are there on the market already? I see virtually none. Miata is not a coupe and is underpowered. S2000 is not a coupe either plus it's a thing of the past and its highrevving engine is not all that cool anyway. Well, technically Elise is not a coupe, but is "closer" to being one (well, Exige is). While used Elise can be a contenter, when new it is in a complete different price segment, even more so Exige.

 

So what else there is... RX8? Anemic, oversized with a funky engine? No, thanks. I see nothing in the segment. BMW 1, maybe, but it's porky and not affordable.

 

I hope Subaru differentiaties itself from Toyota by offering a turbo motor. That can be a FUN car! Chances are best handling most fun to drive Subaru ever.

 

Subaru can have a winner here. I sure hope they won't repeat SVX story. A car noone wants or needs. If they really wanted an AWD touring coupe that could have been Legacy coupe to compete with Accord coupe. But who needs a turd coupe?

[TrueWhiteBoy]

I dunno, as much as people keep mentioning that it's a Subaru car, it seems much more like Toyota's project/car that's simply going to rock a boxer engine.

 

heh, I wonder what the Toyota threads on the hybrid are like.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Unclemat...

 

I don't deny that there might be a market for a light RWD coupe.

 

But you say anemic... this car is slated to have ~160hp. that isn't much more than a Miata, and less than an S2000. If they offer a turbo, it will be better... but the new engine looks like it might be EZ-based, and perhaps not be offered with a Turbo.

 

This car won't have the appeal to mainstream-buyers of a fun little convertible, like Miata, or Sol/Sky, or S2000.

 

This car will be SMALL. significantly shorter in height than a MINI, and smaller in profile than an Audi TT.

 

It may not be the same price as the Elise/Exige, and that will be one good aspect, but it will likely be not much more practical to drive every day than an Exige.

 

That pretty much relegates it to a daily driver for not-tall people, or a weekend sport coupe, but not all that powerful as one, if it doesn't get the turbo treatment.

 

Not only that, but if the Subaru is a re-badged Toyota, there will be cross-over in-fighting between the two. What advantage will the Subaru version have over the Toyota version? A narrower dealer base? There is a Toyota dealer in town. The nearest Subaru dealer is 45 miles away. Maybe the turbo, but again, it may not get one... we don't know.

 

I know the SVX story, I drove an SVX to work today. I LOVE my SVX, and the SVX and Legacy two-prong attacked the record-breaking winter this winter. The only other car that I have owned that I would want to incorporate a feature from, would be the liftback and split-folding rear seats, from my old 93 Probe GT, which was also a nice sporty GT coupe. SVX has folding rear seats, but the rear deck, and small trunk lid limit the size of items that can fit into the space, by limiting the dimensions of the opening. Other than that, my Legacy GT and SVX put the Ford Probe to rest, in terms of capability and power, and are even better touring cars.

 

I DO WANT AN AWD TOURING COUPE!!! And less expensive than an A5/S5, please, and with a manual transmission option with full-time AWD engagement, that Infiniti G37x doesn't offer. My SVX's characteristics, with a feature-set closer to the 2009 Legacy Spec B, or 3.0R Limited... current tech..., and not being more than 10 years out of production, trying to scrounge for spare parts for an aging car, would be FANTASTIC to drive every day.

 

It doesn't need to look as pathetic as the Accord Coupe, which is boring as hell. It should undercut the Audi A5 6-cylinder, and the G37x 6-cylinder. THOSE should be the targets.

 

I WANT A NEW SVX! I DON'T WANT A LITTLE RWD COUPE THAT I CANNOT FIT INTO. I already have a Miata that I can get into easier, because the roof folds down, and my wife LOVES it. She would KILL me if I suggested selling it.

 

BTW, she also loves the way the SVX travels, and handles the winter, so that her Miata doesn't have to do either one, and can be kept pristine for fun use.

 

I hope they LEARN from the SVX story.

 

1: shared platform. The SVX was only too expensive because it was too unique from Subaru's other cars. NOT the case anymore. Between WRX/STI, Legacy, and Tribeca, they have the parts bin to build this car tomorrow, if they wanted. The body shape would be the only different bit, which is the EASY part.

 

2: shared engine. The SVX used a FANTASTIC engine, but no other Subaru did. The EZ36 engine is MUCH more widely used than the EG33 was.

 

Put a 3-door coupe body, with SLEEK SVX-esque lines, brought up to date, on the GR Impreza chassis, with the '10 Legacy's new engine mounting cradle. The coupe should NOT, under any circumstances be as huge as the '10 Legacy. The GR impreza/BL Legacy size is just about perfect for a GT Coupe.

 

Use a mix of WRX STI brembos, bilsteins, and wheel fitment, with Tribeca's wider track.

 

Use WRX STI/Spec.B robust 6-speed, or the Legacy/OB/Tribeca 5EAT upgraded to handle more torque, and perhaps with a 6th gear for fuel economy, and better gear spacing... and Legacy 3.0R's paddle shift on the automatic... OR bring out a Dual-clutch gearbox, instead of a hydraulic automatic.

 

Both of those gearboxes offer a rearward standard torque bias, and Subaru's best VTD-type center differentials.

 

Offer a choice of engines.

2.0 RS: The new NA boxer that Subaru showed in Geneva, for the fuel-efficent base-model, with the suspension and interior comfort of it's sporty and GT trim lines. Fuel efficiency need not sacrifice livability and road-going competence, even if it is the least powerful engine choice.

2.5 GT-Sport: The EJ25 that the Legacy GT is now using, with the front mount turbo, tuned to STI-like 300+ horsepower.

SVX 3.6: The EZ36 tuned to it's 300+hp naturally aspirated, SMOOTH potential, for the high-content SVX-successor model, WITH the gearbox choice that SVX never got, because Subaru didn't have the manual gearbox that could handle the EG33. The 4EAT barely could.

 

A car with 3-door, drop-seat versatility, performance to best the Legacy GT, and styling to attract people that don't want a hunch-back 5-door Impreza body, but do want STI-grade performance.

 

And down-market into the 24-26K range with fewer options, and the NA H4 engine, for sleek, aerodynamic fuel efficiency, with AWD that can be relied on all year round, in a chassis that you can sit comfortably in.

 

~24K to just under $40K (same price range as Impreza GT -> WRX STI+options) It will REALLY undercut the A5Q and G37x, with more value and practicality than BOTH. AND it will offer AWD that Mustang, Genesis, Camaro, and Challenger, Miata, and others don't, and it will likely weigh about as much as an impreza, ~3300lbs on average.

 

HOW IS THAT NOT APPEALING? How is that not wider appeal and versatility than a coupe with all the practicality of a Toyota MR2 Spyder, or an Elise? Let Toyota do that. They already did the MR2. They already power the Lotus.

 

If Toyota sells that car, which the FT-86 already shows... there is nothing to say otherwise than if it is what you want, you should buy the Toyota. It is a Subaru where it counts, anyway... while what I suggest would actually fit the Subaru idiom entirely, fill out the Subaru lineup well, and offer a mix that NOBODY ELSE DOES.

 

It would be MILES ahead of the Accord appliance coupe, not even a comparison.

[Guest]

IWSS, I know you want the coupe, but frankly I think there is fewer of you than those who want turbo wagon with stick shift.

 

"Touring coupes" are vanity cars. Totally impractical, hence they have to have an "image" attached to them. That's why BMW can sell 3-series coupe and Audi the A5. Honda somehow manages to sell Accord coupe, but probably only because they are high volume manufacturer and they still can make money if they sell relatively few of them (compared to sedans).

 

Subaru with their low volume and now mainstream course has no room for such car. So, seriously, forget about it. I need to say that the number of posts on the subject you will make won't make the car one bit more likely to appear.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I dissagree completely.

 

How can you claim "totally impractical", when comparing it to a car that probably won't fit people over 5'10", and with less cargo room than most cars on the road?

 

They are not vanity cars. I think you are ascribing your viewpoint to the entire market, and that might be a bit of a stretch.

 

If Chevy can sell the pile of *crap* that is the Monte Carlo, Subaru can do FAR better than that. Hyundai brought forward the Genesis Coupe. Ford is still selling Mustangs. The Solara has somehow survived this long... Not all of those are even good cars, yet they are on the market.

 

There is a difference between that and your wagon analogy. People can grit their teeth, and still buy a Subaru outback, if they HAVE to. The body-style isn't different, only the height and the option content is. If you NEED a wagon, you can still get something that serves a purpose, even if not ideal.

 

But with Audi A5, Infiniti G37x, and BMW 3-series xi coupe being well over 40K with options... that is out of range for some.

 

What other AWD moderate-size sporty coupe is there? That is right. NOTHING. Not even CLOSE. There are 2WD options, and Toyota is going to have another one.

 

Grand Touring Coupes are no less valid than a Legacy Sport Sedan for people who don't need the extra side doors, and like something a bit more aerodynamic. The only "Image" needs to be something sleek and sporty, and not completely ugly, like the aforementioned late model Monte Carlo. Even it sold to some people.

 

Plus coupes are more likely to be liftback hatchbacks than sedans, making them more versatile for some uses. I fit much more "stuff" into my old fox Mustang, and my 93 Probe GT, than either my Legacy or my SVX (BIGGER CARS, BTW) can hold, because of the trunk lid restriction.

 

There is a line of Subaru coupes that has been severed more severely than the wagon line. Some of us want it back.

 

Leone/DL/GL/GL10 coupe and hatchback

XT and XT-6

SVX

Impreza coupe, including the 2.5RS, and the overseas 22B STI.

 

That line has been completely severed for a decade. Even the USED cars are getting hard to find, and hard to support with parts stocks drying up.

 

I have lamented along side the Wagonistas when the Legacy GT wagon was lost. I think that was a stupid, stupid move.

 

But I don't think a car that should wear a Toyota or Mazda badge, should masquerade as a Subaru, when it doesn't fit Subaru's lineup.

 

What I describe fits Subaru's pattern, AND would more appeal to mainstream buyers than an utterly impractical, and 2WD coupe, not to mention the dilution of sales between Subaru and Toyota.

 

Take a look at the commentary on the autoblog article. A RWD Subaru is not a popular proposition!

 

The poll is OVERWHELMING, even just in the context of people who read autoblog.

Would you consider a non-AWD Subaru version of the Toyota FT-86 coupe?

*Yes. The more rear-drive options available to enthusiasts, the better. Period. - 909 (18.1%)

 

*No. AWD would provide a distinct choice vs. the Toyota. RWD makes the Subaru a fancy rebadge. - 3835 (76.5%)

 

*I wouldn't consider this car in the first place, regardless of its drivetrain. - 268 (5.3%)

[TrueWhiteBoy]

Granted now that they're actually advertising I don't know if it will affect the results as much, but it seems like a SVX or 2.5 coupe would eat into existing WRX/STI sales.

[what]

This may have been a bad decision for Subaru going in with Toyota. I know if I buy another Subaru, which I would like too, its going to be like an 04-08 Legacy or STI. I wouldnt buy any newer Subaru, definitely not anything Toyota. I have had I think 3 Toyota's in the past, an 83 Corolla, an 89 Camry, and a 97 Corolla. The older ones were just built with much better materials than what they've been using recently, Toyota's have just gotten "cheaper". Cutting corners in better materials to save money. Its pretty obvious if you have owned a 90's Camry compared to the 2000's Camry's.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Granted now that they're actually advertising I don't know if it will affect the results as much, but it seems like a SVX or 2.5 coupe would eat into existing WRX/STI sales.

 

I realize this is just anecdotal...

 

But I think it would add as many as it would steal, if not add more.

 

I would buy an Impreza coupe, especially if it were optioned closer to Legacy levels, optionally.

 

I won't buy an ugly Impreza sedan, and certainly not an even uglier 5-door.

 

If the 4 and 5 doors were attractive, perhaps it would be a choice.

 

But Subaru offering a comprehensive, good lineup of 3, 4, and 5 door bodystyles, and a wide engine and gearbox lineup would have people choosing something from Subaru's catalog.

 

...Instead of shopping elsewhere, or not bothering to buy new. If there is nothing new that I really want, why should I eat depreciation on a new car? especially in this politico-economic climate...

 

If all it is going to be is adequate, why not buy something used, and save the money for a project car, or some other hobby, or just be more comfortable in my monthly budget?

 

I have always been skeptical of the "self-cannibalization" argument. Re-arranging the deck chairs maybe... but it is still the deck of the same ship, and quite possibly it might attract more passengers for the ship to be more pleasing.

[TrueWhiteBoy]

Do we know (outside of body changes) if there are going to be any differences between the Toyota and Subaru versions?

[Guest]

IWSS, don't get me wrong. I'd not mind if such car was offered at all (why would I?), but I really don't think it fits current Subaru philosophy. SVX was a failed upmarket move attempt (badly executed to boot). A BL based coupe would make sense with the "entry level premium" push. But with the current Legacy product placement being AWD Camry alternative, I don't see that car happening. Even Toyota dropped the boring turd Solara was.

 

I wasn't clear about being "totally impractical". Yes, such cars impractical, but can be attractive. If it was sporty styled and nicely appointed car with 250-300 hp and 3-door fastback body, I think it could be a great car. Would it sell? I don't know, but I doubt it would if it shared a lot with 2010 Legacy. It's like asking for Solara again, just AWD this time.

 

I will still maintain that a true sports car, lightweight and hopefully not underpowered is much more attractive proposition than a heavy GT coupe type car.

 

I agree with you about the self-cannibalization argument.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree...

 

I think the SVX was very well executed, but once again, improperly supported, and perhaps a bit too much too soon. Like I said, it was out on a very long limb, when no other Subarus shared the chassis, very few had the same 4EAT, although it spread to other Subarus in the later 90s... and nobody used the EG33 engine.

 

That pushed the cost high, and the economic conditions that killed all the 90's coupes hit SVX hard, just like all the rest. RX7, Nissan Z32, Supra, 3000GT, and the rest...

 

As a CAR, the SVX is fantastic, and is holding up to 20 years and 113K miles pretty darn well, mechanically. Some have transmission issues, but they can be dealt with, and methodical service and a fluid cooler can save the problem. Mine has paint and upholstery issues that are pure and simple neglect by a previous owner, but it is also the reason it only cost me a grand to buy, for a car that is running well.

 

Meanwhile while I worry about my 5-year old 70K mile Legacy GT chewing up it's turbo into the engine, and burning out it's clutch, and it NEEDS new dampers, because the OE junk sucked, and are now dead, and I am having to look into swapping springs and top-hats just to put better bilsteins on it.

 

It is easy to look at the SVX from the outside, and see it's rarity as a failure. It is easy from the INSIDE to see it as a fantastic car to drive and travel with, even at 20 years old. It has 230hp, and it will GO. A Manual conversion would be even quicker. Cruises smoothly and silently, but still turns with confidence and doesn't wallow. It has speed sensitive steering, which even my Legacy doesn't.

 

I wouldn't use SVX and Solara in a sentence together other than to say that they are night and day different in everything aside from the side door count.

 

Your point about not sharing a lot with the 2010 Legacy is in agreement, although if Subaru has fixed the clutch (06+ WRX-style, single-mass flywheel), and the dampers (bilsteins or better OE parts than BL/BP), and the new front-mount turbo, and engine cradle design is better, I have no problem with that, nor with the option for an EZ36 engine, although I REALLY wish they'd offer the H6 with a manual gearbox, preferably the GOOD 6-speed, not the cost-cutter 6-speed.

 

A true sports car has some appeal. But I am not sure if it has more appeal.... for the simple reason of versatility.

 

I only have 3 cars because one was hella-cheap, and still very good. Most people need to have practicality built in to a daily driver, and most sports cars are luxury items, even at $20K... They are usually second or third sideline cars for a specific purpose, unless you REALLY don't need practicality every day, which is a small number of people.

 

As a sports car, RWD and light weight are GREAT, and I've never argued otherwise. As a daily driver, most people need more, and above the snow-belt, AWD is a nice, nice thing.

 

That balance between fun and practicality is one of the cornerstone justifications for a Legacy GT turbo manual gearbox wagon.

 

On a budget that only allows one or two cars... where they need the balance... the bigger, (but in context, nowhere NEAR as big as cars like Camaro or Challenger...keep in mind...) more versatile coupe would win every time.

 

On a hobby argument, for SCCA, or drift, or just weekend enjoyment... the little sports car is the better product under the more focused use... but I have a feeling fewer people have the money for a side-line car like that.

 

Subaru has a reputation for high-value, well-balanced practical and fun cars that are daily drivers, and AWD Capability to do that. They haven't had one of those with 2 side doors in a decade, but they had those for at least the 20 years before that, since at least as far back as 1980.

 

Subaru have never, ever had a light-weight sports car, a sports car by definition not having a practical concession, nor should it.

 

Toyota has had a small RWD car, actually a couple. Both the AE86, and the MR2. Mazda has had that, like the original RX7, and small coupes like MX3, and 323, including the AWD 323GTX. They did have a drool-worthy hard-roof NB Miata in Japan, as well, which unfortunately never made it here.

 

Putting a small sports car in the Subaru lineup just draws the circle closed around the hole in their lineup, that hole being a fun/practical balance trademark Subaru, with a coupe bodystyle. They have sedans, 5-doors, and SUVs/CUV/Wagons covered, all with a mix of practicality and capability. Subaru doesn't have a history of highly focused "Best at just one thing, at the expense of all others" vehicle. Even Rally experience favors versatility on many different surfaces and conditions.

[Viber]

If Subaru drops a WRX engine into a RWD compact coupe that clocks in around 2900lbs (164" length/70" width), and it throws down solid numbers at under 30k, it will attract a market.

 

There is always a market for cheap pocket rocket thrills.

 

It all depends on how the car performs, and how much it costs. I really dont think the masses are going to be too ass hurt if it lacks AWD if the Toyabaru starts winning some comparos against heavy hitters.

[Guest]

AWD it is not going to be!

 

http://s10.directupload.net/images/100313/vr5678pj.jpg

[Guest]

The million dollar question... is this an intercooler behind the grille? The fins don't look like but then it appears to have an endtank

 

http://s10.directupload.net/images/100313/2c4z4seu.jpg

[fishbone]

Much as I hate to say this, to me it kinda makes sense that this little coupe not be AWD. Adding an AWD option seems out of line with what Subaru has been trying to do lately: consolidate their line. No more automatic on the turbo Legacy, no more wagon, etc etc.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Wouldn't it be consolidating their line to continue to offer exclusively AWD cars?

 

This car may not be AWD, possibly not even AWD capable.

 

That doesn't mean this car is what Subaru needs. It can simultaneously be what Toyota might need, while not being what Subaru needs.

[Guest]

IWSS, you of all people should not be complaining about an interesting, potentially exciting, sporty car in Subaru lineup among all the mobile appliances they are offering - even if it's not exactly what you would like.

 

I am very excited about this car, and I hope Subaru differentiates its version from Toyota's by putting a turbo it there.

 

And, yeah, per the pictures, it's obvious this car cannot be AWD in any shape or form (like hybrid). The engine location completely precludes that especially that it has a boxer engine.

[IwannaSportSedan]

If Subaru had a non-appliance for me to buy, I might be more game for this...

 

But I still think that this RWD sports car is going to be their excuse not do do something more versatile, and daily-driveable as a coupe.

 

I do think they need less appliance in their cars, but this is almost a swing too far the other direction, with very little practical use for daily use.

 

I am mostly being harsh on the fact that Subaru won't build me a car to consider as a new daily driver...

 

...more so than the fact that now they want to build a new sports car, something I already have, and something they've never done before, instead.

[Guest]

Honestly, you're whining.

[The B4]

Unclemat vs IWSS