Tokico HTS vs Koni vs Bilstien vs non coilovers

I have the Tokico HTS with Swift springs. The Tokico set up is cheaper and easier to install than the Konis. The Tokicos are more than adjustable enough, they go from softer than stock to much stiffer than stock. When you use the Spec B top hats the front will sit higher. I don't recommend using two spring pads as this causes preload. I used the 3/8" "saggy butt shims" instead and my car sits nice and level.
The difference between Konis and Tokicos can be dabated until the end of time. Its a personal preference really.
As far as the spring compressor, I was able to safely break down my fronts and rears with no spring compressor needed. The top nut is under very little pressure from the spring assembly. With lowering springs there is no pressure.

and here

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45571

I had Tokicos and JDM tophats installed a couple of weeks ago, and I already had H-techs on the car. The front wheel gap did increase a little. The gap was pretty narrow (less than 2 fingers) with the H-tech/OEM strut combo as the drop with the H-techs was more like 1.3-1.4" than the advertised 0.9".

The tape measure reveals that, as it currently sits, it's level but to the eye it appears a tad low in the rear due to the wheel arch cut and the styling lines of the car. I plan to double up the rubber spring seats (<$10ea) in the rear. Several members have done this with no reported problems. This should result in an actual very slight front to rear rake and a more even front and rear gap spacing.

I'm still experimenting with the settings on the Tokicos. The suggested initial "midway" setting (4 turns from full hard) was nice and compliant, but to the point of being a somewhat floaty at times. I think something between 3 and 4 turns would be decent for daily around town driving for when the severe pothole crater conditions typically show up by late winter.

Right now I'm at 2 turns from full hard and this is feels pretty good, less harsh that the H-tech with OEM strut/shock combo on sharp pavement transitions but haven't had a chace to really push it. I'll soon go another turn toward "hard" and see how that feels.

I wanted to get to a late season track lapping day on the Tokicos so I could really experiment, but couldn't work out the scheduling. I really like the adjustability to easily adapt to varying conditions...relatively soft for when the roads are really chewed up, to cranked down for circuiting on a smooth track.

By the way, that price from JSCspeed is indeed excellent considering it includes the pair of top mounts (~$80 for a pair) and shipping.

Adjustment atachment:

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111076

and fancy plug for Dan:

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66120&highlight=Tokico+HTS

and and older thread, but some decent info...mostly opinion

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60522

Koni

the origional Koni thread

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35073

honestly too much to quote....good read....all 19 pages (take out the BS and crying and you have maybe 4 pages, but still good to go)

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104866

interesting info again based on opinion, but good inputs

Bilstein/Bilstein HD

Fread Beans plug:

http://www.fredbeansparts.com/servlet/the-987/Bilstein-Subaru-Legacy-GT/Detail

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119030

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109852

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2432134

I have installed Bilstein HDs on Stock springs about 5 days ago and am enjoying the ride. I have an 05 GT Wagon 5 speed with AVO zero offset LCA bushings with 78k miles. I am a regular joe that spends very little time at the track (only one day so far). My typical driving involves short grocery & kid trips with a bunch of highway miles on the weekends. I also drive the occasional dirt logging road and lots of snowy runs in the winter. Compared to some others on this forum, I am still very much an infant in suspension understanding and handling. That being said...here is a layman's review of Bilstein HDs on stock springs with AVO LCA bushings.

The install went pretty good with its small hiccups but I was able to do it solo in about 5 hours.

The car height is higher with about 3.5 fingers of gap in the front and 3 fingers in the back. I did install a 3/8" shim and maybe should have gone with a 1/2" shim instead but the look is not that concerning for me since this is the family wagon with a Recaro toddler seat.

The ride...
First thing I noticed was just how solid the car felt while getting in. No more dropping as I sat down.
Slow speeds (25 - 40 mph) The car rides level and takes on all bumps very well while slow cornering is accomplished with a fairly flat car. I have some local bumps (tree roots growing under asphalt) that have created some great testing. At 25 mph (speed limit) the bumps of 3-4 inches are absorbed very nicely qwhile bumps of 5 inches start to produce a enough bounce that would not allow one to drink coffee or something. The biggest change for me was that the car did not have any further bounce after the bumps. My old stock dampeners were very worn out.

Higher speeds (40- 70 mph) Still a very solid ride and still absorbs the small bumps very well. I no longer fear the small bridge expansion joints or similar bumps at highway speeds. So much nicer.

The cornering is great for my liking. I like some roll when I start to push the cornering speed but I am only slightly pushing the corners compared to some here. I did not want a track ride or my buddys 04 STi.

I have done an alignment (factory settings) a couple days ago.

My wife loves the new suspension as well as she is prone to motion sickness.

The idea of different springs sound interesting but so far I am happy with the current setup.

Cheers,
Mike

Good info reguardless on suspension and alignment issues...big thanks to underdog

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60122

My biased thoughts (Pros/Cons):

Tokico:

Pro:

Full Replacement Strut/Shock

Broad Range of Adjustability both rebound and compression

optional rear adjustment extensions

Cons:

Spec B Top Hats Required (not really a "bad" con, but still I need something )

Koni:

Pro:

5-way Adjustability

Cons:

Have to hack the Stock shock tower/assembly

Bilstein:

Pro:

Full Replacements, nothing else really needed, just slap springs and call it a day

Con:

Non adjustable

open to discussion

my flame suit is on, and Im more than willing to get some more inputs from owners of each.

-Travis

(I think I just talked myself into the Tokico's lol)

bitz · September 20, 2009

Quality write-up man, thanks for putting all in the info in one place. I've been trying to decide my suspension upgrade for a while now too. I've always thought I'd do Bilsteins HDs w/Rallitek or Edibach springs but now I've been hearing much better things about both Konis and Tokicos. Not sure how much I like the idea of chopping up the front struts for the Konis though, but I do like the idea of adjustability with them though. Guess its back to the drawing board for a bit.....

-Adam

**madcatz** · September 20, 2009

I really think for overall daily driving and nothing else the KYB G2 will suffice for adequate replacement no hacking required, and though its not a "performance" shock, it will fulfill your needs

I really think the best deal is the Tokico since you dont hack up your shocks and you have the independant corner adjustability to help properly tune your suspension. Though coilovers will assist you so much better letting you adjust the corners in both height and rebound/compression

But adjustable Sway Bars and Endlinks will also help me out alot as I will be getting the Whiteline Spherical Endlinks to properly preload my bars.

though reading through underdogs thread, I may so be inclined to start shopping around for SpecB suspension bits to start replacing control arms and the such

**madcatz** · September 20, 2009

also, I like having my stock parts, as when I fire sold all my performance parts for my prelude the hardest part was getting stock parts back so I could drive it and ultimatly sell it.

**Underdog** · September 20, 2009

Travis,

No matter what shock you choose, ride height (and therefore suspension travel) is going to dictate the comfort of your setup. Fact of the matter is, you just can't lower our cars at all with stock length shocks and expect an actual improvement in ride quality or handling. You may think there is an improvement because the car feels more "solid" but a suspension that doesn't allow the wheels to follow the road is not an effective suspension at all.

Let me try to summarize this quickly:

You want a stockish height and plush, non-adjustable ride, with very mild spring rates? Get Bilsteins and corresponding springs.

You want stockish height and plush-to-firm, adjustable ride, with very mild spring rates? Get Konis and corresponding springs.

You want a configurable drop and plush-to-firm, adjustable ride, with the spring rate of your choice? Get coilovers, preferably KW/RCE or Bilstein.

Hope that helps,

Rick

**madcatz** · September 20, 2009

I was under the impression that the Koni and Tokico were a lowering shock as well?

I am debating getting H&R's or Pinks.

**goneskiian** · September 20, 2009

Koni's and Tokico's can handle a drop because they're valved "stiffer" than stock. UD's point is that nothing will handle a huge drop like S-Tech's and to a point Swifts because they eliminate all (S-Techs) or most (Swifts) of the usable travel of our suspension. Coilovers allow a larger drop because they retain more (all?) of that travel.

Cheers!

**madcatz** · September 20, 2009

sigh why cant this be easy like the honda game....lol

custom rated H&R with Koni Yellows....so easy...lol

**Underdog** · September 20, 2009

Ian hit the nail on the head...

However, I would be reluctant to lower more than 1/4" on stock length shocks. Yes this seems drastic and yes it sucks, but that is just the nature of the beast with the legacy aftermarket.

Anecdotal evidence: with my konis and swifts I was on the bump stops at all times. The ride was very firm due to the increased effective spring rate of the bump stop, but it was also harsh because it didn't take much of a bump to compress the stops solid.

At last measurement, my RCE Tarmacs are something like an inch+ higher than my previous setup. The ride is more firm becuase the springs are higher rate, but the suspension can handle much larger bumps before jarring the chassis.

The problem we legacy owners face is the limited combinations of springs and shocks force us to compromise between performance, comfort, and aesthetics. I ultimately ended up with coilovers not so I could adjust my ride height and/or damping daily or seasonally, but so I wouldn't be constrained by the compromise of the limited fixed strut/spring options.

...and before you make a coilover thread, buy the best ones you can afford, next to tires and brakes they are the most critical chassis component you have.

**Ridgeracer** · September 20, 2009

Underdog....To me it seems like anything beyond stock severely compromises suspension travel(do they even make coilovers that have the same suspension travel/stroke as stock?). Not a bad thing if your roads are made of glass but otherwise:mad:

**Underdog** · September 20, 2009

I would tend to agree with your assessment Ridgeracer, but unfortunately I don't have an answer to your question... (maybe it was rhetorical?)

**madcatz** · September 20, 2009

...and before you make a coilover thread, buy the best ones you can afford, next to tires and brakes they are the most critical chassis component you have.

Im not about to. And im not gonna sit here and praise Tein....on my lude I had custom Rated HA's 770fr/ 1049rr I bought them from a friend who constantly tracked the lude....it was harsh, but oh god the corners.....

sigh....I really didnt want to go with coilovers

and its not about "the best you can afford" its the best for the situation ill be in all of the time....daily spirited duties.

though I do agree that tires and brakes ARE the two best suspension mods to buy hands down.

**madcatz** · September 20, 2009

looking at these:

http://www.subimods.com/subaru-legacy-2005-h-r-coilover-1-2-2-5-1-0-2-0.html

when its all said and done

Tokico HTS : $621.00

JDM Pinks : $499.99

------------------------

$1120.99

those H&R Coils are only 1157.00

:facepalm:

**goneskiian** · September 21, 2009

However, I would be reluctant to lower more than 1/4" on stock length shocks. Yes this seems drastic and yes it sucks, but that is just the nature of the beast with the legacy aftermarket.

Anecdotal evidence: with my konis and swifts I was on the bump stops at all times. The ride was very firm due to the increased effective spring rate of the bump stop, but it was also harsh because it didn't take much of a bump to compress the stops solid.

At last measurement, my RCE Tarmacs are something like an inch+ higher than my previous setup. The ride is more firm becuase the springs are higher rate, but the suspension can handle much larger bumps before jarring the chassis.

The problem we legacy owners face is the limited combinations of springs and shocks force us to compromise between performance, comfort, and aesthetics. I ultimately ended up with coilovers not so I could adjust my ride height and/or damping daily or seasonally, but so I wouldn't be constrained by the compromise of the limited fixed strut/spring options.

...and before you make a coilover thread, buy the best ones you can afford, next to tires and brakes they are the most critical chassis component you have.

UD, I value your experience and your knowledge on this subject but you have to admit that comparing dropping your car 2" in the front (your experience on the very low and harsh Swifts) to dropping 1/4" is exaggerating a bit much.

Perhaps, had you tried different springs with those Koni's, you may have been satisfied and not gone with coilovers.

From what I've read here, I think many owners will be satisfied with springs and struts for daily driver and light track duties.

**Underdog** · September 21, 2009

My assertion was based on actual measurements of the shocks, not just my experience with the Swifts. It is quite possible that I would have been satisfied with the ride quality of another spring paired with Konis, but I wanted to adjust the ride height to maintain a visually level stance, as well as have a significantly stiffer spring rate, which I feel is unavailable with our limited spring options.

ifbiker measured the stock struts here and found that with stock height springs, there is almost no bump travel before contacting the bump stops (about .09"). So you can see that even a 1/8" drop would put you into the bump stop, nevermind a 1/4" drop (or 2-1/8" )

and its not about "the best you can afford" its the best for the situation ill be in all of the time....daily spirited duties.

You are right, I was taking for granted that you were going to stay within the daily driver realm and not spend many times more(like $8-10k) for true race coilovers. However even within the "daily driver" subset of coilovers available for the Legacy, get the best ones you can afford.

**madcatz** · September 21, 2009

Im big on what H&R has done for the honda's hence why I quickly reference back to them alot

We were able to get custom spring rates, and some guys even went as far to get the koni yellows sent back to koni to get revalved. Any take on if this is an option for the LGT crowd who dont want to settle on 300lbs springs?

say up it to 450fr/550rr?

schwinn · September 21, 2009

I'm confused... what are you looking to do here? Improve handling, lower the car (I don't think that's your goal) or just replace the stockers?

I'm very happy with my JDM Bilsteins and Pinks on my car, even in these miserable Massachusetts roads... there is no "glass" on these roads. This setup lowers the car slightly (more than the subiwiki states, I think) but not too much... and it firms things up VERY nicely without becoming a "track" vehicle. The girlfriend loves the ride, and doesn't find it harsh in any way, yet the car is very secure...

FWIW, I haven't had to chop my bump stops either...

**madcatz** · September 21, 2009

its not so much "what" I want to do, rather discuss the options we have for shocks.

As most the springs are similar spring rates as to what has the best option to offer the best "adjustability" to a fixed height shock.

I mean using the spring rate conversions:

(1kg/mm)*(25.4mm/1in)*(2.2lb/1kg) => 1 kg/mm = 55.88 lb/in
5k = 279 lb/in
6k = 335 lb/in
7k = 391 lb/in
8k = 447 lb/in
9k = 503 lb/in
10k = 559 lb/in
11k = 615 lb/in
12k = 671 lb/in
13k = 726 lb/in
14k = 782 lb/in

most of our springs fall between 3.5 to 6....I know its still broad persay, but we dont have a spring to get me to what I want (another discussion)

But mostly, what is our best option for adjustability v non adjustability for a fixed perch shock

________

springs, I would LOVE to get a 450lbs front 550lbs rear setup, but that is NOT an option for fixed perch, so by all means i will HAVE to get coils to go that heavy

just mostly I wanted to bring all the info to one thread to ease the searching and have a discussion amongst us to gather fact and opinion to the 3 contenders we have out there....Koni, Tokico and Bilsteins

**madcatz** · September 21, 2009

Brand  Front Drop (in)  Rear Drop (in)  Front Rate (kgf/mm)  Rear Rate (kgf/mm)     
Stock       0                  0              3.5                    5.5    
Pinks       0.5                0.5            4(p)                   6(p)    
Eibach      1                  0.76           3.0-4.0                3.0-6.0  
Tein HTech  0.9                0.9            3.9(p)                 5.5(p) 
Ion         1.18               1.0            4.0-5.2 (p)            6.7
Progress    1.3                1.0            3.4                    5.8   
H&R         1.25               1.25           secret(p)              secret    
Espelir     1.6                1.2            4.3                    7.2    
Tein STech  1.5                1.5            4.2                    6.0  
Cobb Sport  1.75               1.0            n/a                    n/a  
Swift       2                  1.5            4.25                   6.6    
RalliTEK    ~1.3              ~1.3            5.5 - 6.1              4.3 - 6.5

and just for reference what Im talking about for spring rates being pretty soft and even

LRegvall · September 21, 2009

Im big on what H&R has done for the honda's hence why I quickly reference back to them alot
We were able to get custom spring rates, and some guys even went as far to get the koni yellows sent back to koni to get revalved. Any take on if this is an option for the LGT crowd who dont want to settle on 300lbs springs?

say up it to 450fr/550rr?

Out of curiosity, why do you want springs stiffer than the 300 to 450 range of most of the available ones. Roll reduction (sway bars)? Squat & dive (dampers)? I'm not sure I understand the advantage of super stiff springs. Thanks.

LRegvall · September 21, 2009

And a good helpful thread, by the way.

**madcatz** · September 21, 2009

I dont know if its the Honda in me still. I want a stiffer spring because its what I used to drive.

The COBB Sways and Whiteline adjustable end links will help the cornering as well as the chassis braces.

if your upping to a better rebound (shock) your not being bounced all over the place with a stiffer spring. and vice a versa. If I have a weak spring (stock) the tokicos/koni arent really doing their job persay.

schwinn · September 21, 2009

I think, coming from the Honda world, you may be expecting different vehicle dynamics that are simply not possible. Bottom line is that the Hondas are a much lighter vehicle, so what (principles) works there may not apply to a much heavier, AWD LGT. I imagine you're aware of this, but just wanted to make sure.

Again, I think your initial post is an excellent resource for options, but I'm not sure where you are headed with the selection. You say you want a stiffer spring... as LRegvall asked: Why? Better handling? Less squat? etc...

If you don't have a "goal" in mind, you can't really get "there"!

**madcatz** · September 21, 2009

hrm right.

I just got off the phone with my friend Ray (joon525)

He came from the same Honda background I did, both prelude owners that previously had Tein HA's

He is in the same boat as I am, but he just wants luxury where I want to be able to have the adjustability of a competitive shock for every day driving to go from soft daily to when I go to Tail of the Dragon or a random AutoX to just putz around in, I have the ability to change out my rebound/compression

though my initial though on spring rates of 450fr/550rr may be a bit exceeding what I need, its kinda flabbergasting to look at all this info and not be able to come to a sound decision since there isnt much of options available for the LGT

**madcatz** · September 21, 2009

the prelude wasnt that light....tbh

LGT Curb Weight : 3300-3435 lbs(sedan)

Prelude Curb Weight 2954 lbs

Tokico HTS vs Koni vs Bilstien vs non coilovers

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