mwiener2 Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 By the time something shows up in the ECU, it's too late. This is a mechanical failure. If you are able to catch something in the ECU, the mechanical parts have already begun to fail. It is only a matter of time before the engine seizes. So basically that means it is very difficult to catch a failure of this type before it becomes catastrophic and even if you do, good luck getting a dealer to acknowledge what you've found and warranty it... although 2 days later when it does fail, you have better chances of a warranty claim going smoothly. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Hey all, Just read this thread. Wanted to comment on a few things: 1. My car was in the affected range of the Stop Sale back in early 08. I bought it and took delivery 2 days prior to the stop sale being announced. I've never taken it into the dealership and never had problems. Over 28k miles now. Still concerns me. 2. People are making fun of Soda. Fine. But what i'm more concerned about is what he's saying: were the internal castings subcontracted to someone with sub-standard casting techniques, and the internals are not up to snuff? I bought this car with the intent of tuning it OUT OF WARRANTY (i.e. after a full break-in, regular oil changes, and a 60k tune-up so I'm at a fresh start). Now I question whether this is the right platform, as I always intended to just gut one cat and tune it and then leave the engine be. 3. I don't remember or didn't read Soda's original thread, but I will say that I have no problem with an owner continuing to drive on a car that is experiencing a part failure. I would tell my wife to drive it as far as possible if she was driving at night on her way home from work (deserted and semi-scary area). We don't have a third car and our lives make it difficult to work around a failing car (i.e. she leaves home at 6:30am, so it'd even be hard to easily schedule a rental car). What I'm mainly concerned about is: Should I basically drive this car for another 1/2 years for a total of 60k miles, re-install my stock shifter and sway bars, and then trade-in for something with a better track record. This car's got enough problems that I really don't want to add new items to the list pre-100k. Thanks all, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 The rumors about weak internals have been floating for a while on nasioc. Clark Turner claimed that late 06 STI and 07 STi had weak internals outsourced to a different company. He've seen quite a bit of cars so maybe he is onto something, but then he is known to push some BS occasionally. Jeff Sponagule says there is no refutable evidence that 04-06 blow up any less than 07+. Tune on 07 and newer STIs is a problem and contributes to blown engines. Finally, "blow up" means fractures in ringlands or piece of ringland falling out. Catastrophic failure the OP is unusual, and I bet OP caused it by driving the car untuned, and even driving it further after the engine blow up. He even says "S SIMPLE AS CHANGING THE AIR FILTER TO ALLOW MORE AIR FLOW". Hey, Sherlock, changing intake is something that needs to be tuned. While I think there is something to the theory that the quality of the engines went down, the OP's case is not one to draw conclusions from. He is to blame about his car's failure and he's damn lucky SOA shelled out anything for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 No doubt the extent of his problems were unique to his situation, and I don't mean to draw any conclusions from that. I understand ringlands are a known entity, especially when running lean (hot) or having lots of pre-detonation. I even understand my stock tune might be likely to exacerbate that issue. I guess I'll have a candid discussion with my wife about the possibilities in another 6 months to a year (once more data is available too) and see where we want to go. But maybe I swap back in a stock-style air filter in place of my AVO Panel I'd love to get her hooked on a 280awhp car with strong pull starting at 2000-2500 rpms. But the one thing that'll turn her off to tuning more than anything else is having to deal with a $3000 expense related to said tuning. And that's a life-long turn-off I'm not willing to walk myself into. I want a wife who loves cars and wants to modify them. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Anytime you mod the car (even changing the air filter) you run the risk of hurting the engine. So even if all you wanted to do was go stage 2, you run the risk of blowing the engine... regardless if the model year is known to have issues with the internals or not. If you are worried about the internals, put in aftermarket ones. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 If a simple intake change drastically increases the risk of blown internals, then the internals are dangerously weak in the first place and at risk during abnormal driving conditions (poor fuel, temperature extremes, etc.) even under stock conditions. When I bought the car, I was under the impression that it would be very reliable (engine internals wise) with just one-less cat in the DP and a nice conservative stage 2 tune. My impression now is that the quality of some of my castings are in serious question (much like Porsche's water cooled flat sixes made from ~97-2007). As far as I can tell, the ring-lands and some bearings are in question as well as the crankshaft (due to my build date and being part of the stop-sale VIN series). The piston castings are said to be a weak point as well (while we're in there). As far as I can see, $2900 is about the best offer I could find for a P&L Shortblock with forged crankshaft and connecting rods + CP Pistons and Rings. And this is for a daily driver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 If a simple intake change drastically increases the risk of blown internals, then the internals are dangerously weak in the first place and at risk during abnormal driving conditions (poor fuel, temperature extremes, etc.) even under stock conditions. That's really not true. Changing the intake may seem trivial, but the results are anything but. When you play with AFRs, you start changing so many variables which are anything but simple changes. I'm far from an expert, but that is one thing I definitely have learned -- you don't want to do anything which touches that delicate balance without making sure it's accounted for. As far as I can see, $2900 is about the best offer I could find for a P&L Shortblock with forged crankshaft and connecting rods + CP Pistons and Rings. And this is for a daily driver? Check out http://www.raw1performance.com if you're really considering a new shortblock. I think Ron can probably beat P&L's prices on it, and as far as I know P&L was selling his stuff up until a few months ago now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 ShadowIMG - I agree with your assessment on the variables an intake can change. AFAIK, most modern cars have suitable adaptability built in that can adapt to an intake change without significantly increasing risk to the engine. I understand this isn't a tuning change though, and that a tune should decrease all the risks. My point was more that this block appears to have alot of questionably-made key parts during which some out-of-tune events could cause serious problems (heck, look how many people have an injector mis-fire problem, bad coils, etc.) Good link on the raw-performance page. $2600 for such a nicely upgraded block is pretty sweet honestly. My understanding (having never done it myself) is that installing a new assembled short block is about a day's labor for a reputable shop. Am I coming in high or low or about right on that? Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 ShadowIMG - I agree with your assessment on the variables an intake can change. AFAIK, most modern cars have suitable adaptability built in that can adapt to an intake change without significantly increasing risk to the engine. I understand this isn't a tuning change though, and that a tune should decrease all the risks. My point was more that this block appears to have alot of questionably-made key parts during which some out-of-tune events could cause serious problems (heck, look how many people have an injector mis-fire problem, bad coils, etc.) I think that statement is true for most modern cars which are not forced induction. On an N/A car, the change is generally much less significant, and most cars aren't really running anywhere near the potential of their block/heads. For any of the vehicles running closer to the edge of their capability, which is true for majority of the F/I 4cyls on the market and a lot of the newer V6s, an intake change can be pretty major and unsafe. That said, there's about 8000 warnings all over this forum and many others, not to mention on several reputable parts vendor's websites along with the parts that running a non-stock intake without an appropriate tune is significantly unsafe on the Legacy GT -- and that applies all the way back to the 05 model. Good link on the raw-performance page. $2600 for such a nicely upgraded block is pretty sweet honestly. My understanding (having never done it myself) is that installing a new assembled short block is about a day's labor for a reputable shop. Am I coming in high or low or about right on that? Joe I honestly have no idea. Ron @ RAW and Jorge @ P&L are both amazing guys to work with, if you call either one I'm sure they'll be very candid about the whole thing with you and tell you what you need/want to know. For all the worry about engines going on here, I'd like to just go ahead and point out that I'm far more concerned with my transmission than my 2008's engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainhook Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I had/still have similar problems to Soda. Fortunately I noticed my oil disappearing before it had the chance to blow up. Over the course of the past 10 months the dealer has attempted to fix my oil burnoff issue by first replacing the turbo, after that did nothing they put the car on an extended oil consumption test and once that came back they replaced the pistons and rings, I immediately noticed it was still visually smoking and they then disassembled the heads and found an issue in the passenger side head as well as a leaking exhaust valve, it received a brand new head and new valve and is still smoking. I'm going to have to go with Soda and a few local Subaru shop professionals in agreeing that the 2.5L motors are in fact junk. One of my good buddies has a 2 liter WRX with 118,000 miles that has never had a motor issue. (20K stock, 50K stage 2, 48K with a FMIC, external wastegate, and 20G turbo) . . . that's the kind of reliability I thought I was buying into, boy was I mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 So basically you are comparing the overall reliability of two motors which have both been produced in the tens of thousands based on 1 sample from each? Not the most statistically sound research I've heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainhook Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 So basically you are comparing the overall reliability of two motors which have both been produced in the tens of thousands based on 1 sample from each? Not the most statistically sound research I've heard. Unfortunately I have no statistical data to prove anything. I just know from my personal experiences of people/cars that I know locally, the numerous 2 liter owners I know VERY rarely have any issues, whereas almost all of the 2.5L owners I know in the area have had some sort of problem. I thought my particular case was an isolated incident until I started talking to other owners, Subaru technicians at the dealership, and the owner of a well known and respected Subaru shop in PA. All of which conclude that the 2.5L is a vastly sub-par engine reliability wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 You should poke around in the archives over at NASIOC, you'll find that the 2.5L shortblock became very, very popular as a replacement for exploded 2.0Ls. When you get right down to it, the majority of both die from the same causes. The exceptions to the rule are the ones which are just simply faulty from the start. Despite more publicity on the 2.5L failures, it doesn't really seem like they had any more of them than the 2.0L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainhook Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 You should poke around in the archives over at NASIOC, you'll find that the 2.5L shortblock became very, very popular as a replacement for exploded 2.0Ls. When you get right down to it, the majority of both die from the same causes. The exceptions to the rule are the ones which are just simply faulty from the start. Despite more publicity on the 2.5L failures, it doesn't really seem like they had any more of them than the 2.0L. I'll take the opinion of the owner of Area1320 on this one, he's had a Subaru shop that has modded and maintained Subaru's for many years, and he was actually the first person I heard make note of the increased repair rates / blown motors after the switch to the 2.5L motor. He recently even started a "2.5L motors are junk" thread on a local forum. Those are pretty harsh words coming from a person that has made his living for years modding/repairing Subaru's. As of yesterday he had 5 blown 2.5L's sitting outside awaiting repair. He said he's never seen anything like it before. I've seen all the proof I need to believe the 2.5L's are sub-par quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 They've had far more problems on the 2.5 than the previous 2.0. But it mostly seems to have started in late 2006, and (AFAIK), not the 2004 and 2005 STI versions at least. How many times a month do I regret trading in my 2005 Saab 9-2x aero for my 2006 Civic SI. Sure the Civic is dead reliable and much more comfy inside, but that 9-2x would've been sweet once I modified it as it needed Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 You are all throwing 2.5 around pretty loosely. There are two major variants, the Turbo and NON-Turbo. The Non-turbo 2.5L had alot of bad rap because it was blowing headgaskets left and right.The turbo version had a much smaller failure rate. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 They've had far more problems on the 2.5 than the previous 2.0. But it mostly seems to have started in late 2006, and (AFAIK), not the 2004 and 2005 STI versions at least. Joe There are far more 2.5 engine failures than 2.0 engine failures because, well because there are far more 2.5 engines on the road. Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Yeah, I'm sorry, I mean 2.5 turbo. And PhilT does bring up a good point: what was the total 2002-2005 wrx & saab 9-2x sales volume vs. the sales volume of the 2004-present STI, 2006-present WRX, 2004-Present Forester, 2005-Present Legacy GT, and 2006 Saab 9-2x Aero. Regardless, honestly, I don't really know of any engine off the top of my head with as many known engine/turbo problems before 75k, across all varieties of driving styles and maintenance, produced within the last 10-15 years. I've heard people say it's what you get when you push an engine's envelope....but the engine's not really pushing high power levels stock. As proven by the STI and others, as well as the fact that turbo engines have been producing this level of power at this size since at least 1995 with complete reliability. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 The STi at 300hp with it's larger turbo is under much less stress than a stage 2 300hp LGT or FXT or WRX. That's a poor example. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Could you explain? My understanding was that the stress put on the engine is a function of heat + pressure (not including detonations). I thought a well tuned 300 HP LGT would be putting about the same level of stress on the internals as a stock STI (for this comparison, that's about the equivalent of a legacy gt with one cat removed from it's DP and a conservative stage 2 tune). I realize the LGT turbo may not be running as efficiently, so maybe there's your heat, but I thought the actual combustion taking place (from whence the stress cometh) is about the same. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 The efficiency difference in the turbo at that level is a HUGE difference in temperatures. Think like 50 degrees difference in ambient temp, maybe more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 To get that 300 out of the stage 2 car, the turbo is maxed out, it's blowing really hot air. The IC is maxed out and can't remove enough heat fast enough. The fuel system is close to the edge and on some tunes, over the edge. To even get to stage 2, you had to modify the exhaust plumbing. The STi already comes with a larger turbo and IC as well as better fueling. Because these components are not stressed,the engine is not stressed. But if you take the STi to stage 2, it will now be just as stressed. To further illustrate this. A stage 2 LGT makes about 280HP at 18psi. Strap on a GT30 and will make an easy 350hp at 15psi. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Ahhh, didn't realize the VF40 was pushing it's efficiency so far as to be generating that much more heat at ~240whp (I used 240whp as I believe that's the standard for most STIs stock). Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 The STi already comes with a larger turbo and IC as well as better fueling. How come better fueling if they have same injectors? IIRC 04-07 STI fuel pump flows even less than LGT's pump (I may be wrong about that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I'm not 100% about the pump, but the STi has slightly larger injectors. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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