*** Knock, do you have any?

[LittleBlueGT]

Yeah, the logs make it look consistent. Man this is irritating. Aren't the Cobb OTS maps supposed to be pretty conservative, argh. Guess I'll toss on another map and see what happens, that ought to be the first step. Thanks. Have two more logs from that same day... One of a very quick pull through 1-2, and the knock that's consistent occurs between the 4100-5000 RPM range.

 

Why don't you load and log the 91 octane map?

 

FWIW the COBB tunes I used to use consistently showed knock, just like yours, sometimes worse.

 

I will never again drive on a tune that did that.

[iNVAR]

Yeah, will definitely try the 91 map ASAP. I have AccessTuner Race loaded on here as well, so looks like I'm going to do a lot more reading up on stuff... maybe fiddle with the map myself eventually before I take it in, have the parts installed and then dyno tuned. But not till I'm absolutely sure I know what I'm doing of course.

[LittleBlueGT]

Start a thread here or on the RR forums. A few people will gladly help you tune your intake, adjust your timing, and tweak a few other things to get your fairly normal stage2 tune working great.

[iNVAR]

thanks again. started a new thread with new logs and also learningview screenshot!

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116672

[sleeper8406]

subscribe ...i need to read this

[vaccaroja]

knock sensors in the dash are your best frirend.

[dbrunone]

So you're all talking about Romraider parameters....how do these translate to AP parameters? What is just "knock correction" and "knock learning" equivilant to here? Is my car knocking based on this log?

 

Sorry I read this whole thing and just became more confused.

3rd WOT.csv

[iNVAR]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is right:

 

Dynamic Advance Multiplier = Ignition Advance Multiplier (IAM). 1 is the highest it goes on the LGT, which is good. If that goes below 1 (other than when you initially reset the ECU), that means you are getting some severe knocking and the engine is retarding timing.

 

Knock Correction (deg) = FBKC (Feedback Knock Control) You are having timing pulled (negative number = pulled timing). This means that your engine is REACTING to a perceived knock from the engine. Knock has already occurred and the engine is retarding your timing.

 

Knock Learning (deg) = I'm not sure, but I have a feeling this is the equivalent of Fine Learning Knock Control. Things contained in FLKC is the knock that has been LEARNED from the computer. Since you have 0s, it means that your car hasn't learned to retard the timing to prevent future knocks, which is why you are getting the Knock Correction (FBKC in RR). That's NOT good.

 

Based on your log, you are knocking between 2200RPM all the way up to 4200RPM or so between 1.5 and 3.0 load. That is not good.

 

As it's been explained to me more, the Cobb maps aren't good because they have a problem with their FLKC ranges. For some reason, Cobb has FLKC disabled above loads of 2.2. In other words, your ECU will NEVER learn to retard timing at loads of 2.0 and above to PREVENT knock. It will ALWAYS rely on FBKC, which is BAD.

 

Here's the thread:

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2546020&postcount=14

Here is what a version 1.16 map looks like, and everything I have seen points towards COBB not changing it on their later revisions.

 

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/COBBvs116flkcload.jpg

 

FLKC turns off at 2.2 load, and turns back on below 2.1 load.:eek:

 

Brutal!:eek: That means your only form of knock control above 2.2 load is FBKC, which is never learned, and will never affect IAM (or DAM).:eek::eek:

 

I should e-mail COBB, they have changed things in past on my recommendation (didn't think they would listen to me, as I was just repeating what I had learned from RR) maybe they will do it again?

Edited November 13, 2009 by iNVAR

[NSFW]

I think you're mostly on track except maybe this:

 

Since you have 0s, it means that your car hasn't learned to retard the timing to prevent future knocks, which is why you are getting the Knock Correction (FBKC in RR).

 

It's my understanding that the ECU uses FLKC when RPM and load are changing slowly, and FBKC when one or both are changing rapidly. I think of it as the ECU's way of mitigating knock when conditions are changing too rapidly to really know for sure which FLKC cell should be adjusted.

 

So, if you disable FLKC above (for example) 2.2 load, FBKC may not help much at all... only right after you let off the throttle and other transient conditions like that. I don't recall Merchgod saying anything about the ECU using FBKC when rpm and load are stable but FLKC is disabled - it's possible but I wouldn't bet my motor on it.

 

This also means that you can and will see FBKC in the areas where FLKC is active - when shifting, for example.

[LittleBlueGT]

It's my understanding that the ECU uses FLKC when RPM and load are changing slowly, and FBKC when one or both are changing rapidly. I think of it as the ECU's way of mitigating knock when conditions are changing too rapidly to really know for sure which FLKC cell should be adjusted.

 

Close. FBKC is used when load is changing fast (mostly) I don't think it has to do with rpm changing quickly or slowly.

 

So, if you disable FLKC above (for example) 2.2 load, FBKC may not help much at all... only right after you let off the throttle and other transient conditions like that. I don't recall Merchgod saying anything about the ECU using FBKC when rpm and load are stable but FLKC is disabled - it's possible but I wouldn't bet my motor on it.

 

This also means that you can and will see FBKC in the areas where FLKC is active - when shifting, for example.

 

When FLKC is disabled (COBB speak Knock learning) then the ECU will use FBKC, regardless of if load is changing rapidly or not. FBKC does not have a max load where it can be disabled, it just a has a minimum load.

[NSFW]

Thanks for clarifying.

[fishbone]

So let me ask this. My DAM is down from 1.0 to 0.9 and my DA, where it used to be dead on at 8.0 at WOT across the rpms, it now dips from 8 to 7.5 at 4200 rpms and then stays at 7.0 until redline. Is that severe, or just learned knock?

[LittleBlueGT]

So let me ask this. My DAM is down from 1.0 to 0.9 and my DA, where it used to be dead on at 8.0 at WOT across the rpms, it now dips from 8 to 7.5 at 4200 rpms and then stays at 7.0 until redline. Is that severe, or just learned knock?

 

It is hard to say. Read thew sticky on the RR forum. For the DA to fall (assuming you have not had a recent ECU reset) there has to be a few knock counts in the same rpm/load cell. Then it will put the ECU in rough correction mode, and it will possibly change the DAM (IAM).

 

Post up a learning view, DON'T RESET the ECU!

[fishbone]

Here's learning view. I don't have the first clue on how to interpret it.

Edited November 20, 2009 by fishbone

[NSFW]

Here's learning view. I don't have the first clue on how to interpret it.

 

How to interpret learning view results:

http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic4899.html

http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic5371.html

 

It looks like you've got injectors (or an intake) that you're not tuned for.

You're knocking a little bit, in a lot of cells, which might be a side-effect of the fueling problem.

 

The numbers in the knock correction cells are strange - previously I've only seen multiples of 0.35 (stock tune works that way), or a multiple of 0.20 plus a multiple of 0.01 (my tune does that). I don't see a pattern in your numbers... Can you look up the "fine correction retard value" and "find correction advance value" in your tune?

[iNVAR]

4.2) Learning View shows us the Ignition Advance Multiplier. For cars with 32-bit ECUs, this is a value that ranges from 0 to 1. For cars with 16-bit ECUs, it ranges from 0 to 16. If IAM has dropped below maximum (1 or 16), then you have a problem. You've either got the wrong fuel in the tank, or you've got too much timing, or you've got messed-up air-fuel ratios, or too much boost. Whatever the problem is, you should fix it before getting into boost again.

[iNVAR]

If your top-end trim (40+ in the example above) is off by more than 5% you should stay out of boost until/unless you have verified that your AFRs are on target in open loop. The reason is that top-end trim value is in effect during open loop operation.

 

It's possible that your car was tuned with a value of zero in the top fuel trim. In that case, if you see a positive value in the top trim, your car is probably running richer than before. Conversely if the top trim goes negative, you are now running leaner than before, and at increased risk of detonation.

 

However it is also possible that your top trim was settled in (for example -3%) the last time you logged your open loop AFRs. Suppose that you then use those logs to adjust your open loop fueling. After resetting your fuel trims during the reflash, your AFRs will be off until the fuel trim settles in again. But once it settles to your original value (-3% in this example), then that value just means that you're back where you expected to be.

 

In other words, the significance of the top end fuel trim depends on your logging/tuning workflow, and on whether or not your fuel trims reset when your ECU is reflashed.

 

There is a table that governs the minimum and maximum values for the fuel trims. On my 2005 Legacy GT, these were -15% and +15%, but I've seen other values in other stock tunes. If you see one or more of your fuel trims equal to the minimum or maximum possible value, your MAF should be adjusted before you drive the car further than you're willing to walk. A trim of 15% on my car means that the MAF scaling is off by more than 15%, but there's no indication of how much further off it is. Maybe 16%, maybe 60%.

 

Values at the minimum or maximum indicate a serious problem that needs to be fixed. Perhaps you've changed your MAF sensor housing, and you need to revise your MAF scaling to accommodate it. Perhaps your O2 sensor is failing. Perhaps you've got a vacuum leak. Whatever the cause, it should be fixed ASAP.

 

dude, your car sounds sick. and i don't mean sick in a good way.

[LittleBlueGT]

The numbers in the knock correction cells are strange - previously I've only seen multiples of 0.35 (stock tune works that way), or a multiple of 0.20 plus a multiple of 0.01 (my tune does that). I don't see a pattern in your numbers... Can you look up the "fine correction retard value" and "find correction advance value" in your tune?

 

I think it has something to do with DAM not being at 1.000. The table was likely populated with some positive values, but it could only go so high (due to total timing not being above what it could be with DAM being 1.000, which actually brings up other questions in head), then it may have gone down in 1.4 degree and up in .35 increments from there.

[fishbone]

I am on the stock intake, stock injectors. The only thing I had done was remove the intake silencer and I plugged the hole. I submitted the above logs to the tuner and the feedback I received was that they looked OK. I sent in the learning view, pending a response.

I should clarify that the car has sat in the garage untouched for a week. Yesterday I went and turned the ignition in the ON position and pulled the learning view. I did not crank the engine.

Perhaps I should look at cleaning the MAF, something I've been planning to do anyway (I know about how fragile they are, I got a can of CRC on standby).

Accessport is telling me that basically DAM is 0.9 (probably rounding up the .88), and I can watch the DA go from 8.0 to 7.5 at 4k RPM, then down to 7 and stays there to redline.

AFR is 11.0 at WOT, Fuel Trim Long is right around -14. something at WOT.

Above, fuel scaling is a negative number which, unless I am mistaken, means too much fuel and the ECU is adjusting it in order to keep target AFR. I'd rather have neg than positive numbers, IE running rich than lean. No?

 

Where I am at is on one side I am being told it's OK and I should run with it, the other is talking to me about popping the motor. On one side is the professional tuner, the other is the forum. I know how that sounds and I don't mean it that way, I value information coming from BOTH sides, I just don't know basically where I stand, that's all. I just want to be able to enjoy the damn car without question marks hovering over my head every time I go into boost.

 

Per my tuner, last revision we made to the map in order to get rid of knock above 4K rpm, there were some aggressive steps taken to eliminate it. In the dead of summer I was seeing timing pulled by as much as 4 or 5 degrees consistently. Logs looked clean, DAM rock solid at 1.0, DA at 8.0 where it should be according to the reflash. No more knock. It was gone, car was running great. Temps got cooler, in the 40s, so the ECU pulled timing in order to prevent knock. Now ... correct me if I am wrong but that is supposed to happen, in the sense that basically the ECU is doing what it is supposed to do. Else, what DO you do? Tune in the winter? Keep in mind I know very little about this so I'm talking from a simplistic standpoint.

 

Later edit: I guess I forgot that I didn't actually attach logs here. I don't want to threadjack so here is a link where you can see them. Note the intake temperature and it will become quite apparent that the first two were pulled when it was significantly warmer outside.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2701379&postcount=246

Edited November 20, 2009 by fishbone

[iNVAR]

bottom line: if your IAM (DAM) is less than 1, something's WRONG.

 

And like the RR post says, notice your fuel trim is maxed out at -15? That's the LIMIT. It could mean that it's really MORE (less, whatever) than -15 but since you're hitting the maximum reading, you're only seeing -15.

 

A trim of 15% on my car means that the MAF scaling is off by more than 15%, but there's no indication of how much further off it is. Maybe 16%, maybe 60%.

Edited November 20, 2009 by iNVAR

[fishbone]

We'll see what feedback I get from the tuner based on the learning view.

I'm overshooting target boost occasionally. Could be thanks to the Perrin TMIC. When I first got the tune I was overboosting BIG time. I'll get a 15PSI actuator and a boost controller which ought to make tuning for boost easier and get things back in check.

I really don't know what I ought to do if the response I get is "things look OK". According to what I have seen on the Cobb forums regarding IAM/DAM, they don't seem to make a huge deal out of it going below 1.0 as long as it's not a big decrease, or at least that's the perception I got.

I hate the waiting part.

[rao]

The oil that you are so particular about won't do anything to help or hurt your engine, but driving it with that tune will almost certainly damage it, fascinating

[fishbone]

Not particularly knowing what I am looking at, the only choice I have is to put faith in the professional tuner to know what he is doing. But as you can see I don't do so blindly, otherwise you wouldn't have seen any of these posts, logs, or threads by me. I'm just trying to make sense of it but admittedly I am biased towards the tuner. And sometimes reading/being conflicting information by forum members doesn't help the cause either. For example I was told that the Fuel Trim Long scaling can actually be done up to 20%, not just 15%. Maybe it was an honest mistake, forgetting that the scaling is wider on the 07+ (+-25% IIRC), whereas the 05 is only up to 15%.

Similarly to how you have heard bad things about synthetic oil rao, I too have heard bad things about bad tunes by just about almost every tuner out there.

I am open to suggestions. I was going to flash the Cobb OTS Stage 2 map which supposebly would be safer for me to run in the meantime until I figure out WTF is going on. But that's not a good idea either since there's so much talk about knock on those maps and how ECU learning is disabled above certain thresholds. And then there's talk about running the risk of further damaging the motor by going to a stock tune on Stage 2 hardware.

This has been going on for almost a year now. Maybe I should just accept the fact I'm not cut out for this, nobody is, and just trade in for a Yaris or some shit.

Edited November 20, 2009 by fishbone

[rtbrjason]

Definitely something wrong. I wouldn't let the tuner tell me that lv is acceptable.

 

It's possible that he got timing dialed in during the summer months and now that it's getting colder the ecu is attempting to advance timing a bit. There is a timing compensation table for iat that adds some timing as temperatures drop. He may or may not have 0'd this out.

 

It seems you've had problems with this tune for quite a while now? I'm not sure about your other mods, but have you tried running the off the shelf cobb stg2 map to see how the car behaves?

 

Edit: I got this submitted after you mentioned the cobb stg2 map. I would still try the cobb stg2 map. It can't be knocking as bad as you currently are.

[iNVAR]

get infamous tuned. problem solved.