h2o hybrid

[DrCloud]

no one is denying the fact that this will make some hydrogen... it's the amount that is the issue

 

The output is 2.3 liters per minute of hydrogen at 12v and 7 amps with 0 vacuum.

 

The amount, therefore, is known. What it will do for you is what's not. Note that 2.3 l/min ~ .08 CFM. Does anyone know what the flow rate of the intake system might be? Given that, we could tell what the H2 enrichment would be. HPH

[erikvcl]

The amount, therefore, is known. What it will do for you is what's not. Note that 2.3 l/min ~ .08 CFM. Does anyone know what the flow rate of the intake system might be? Given that, we could tell what the H2 enrichment would be. HPH

 

Even if 100% of the energy in the hydrogen is turned into kinetic energy (through combustion), the system is still energy negative. The electricity used for electrolysis comes from the alternator. As more current is required from the alternator, it puts that much additional load on the engine.

 

These automotive electrolysis/Brown's gas systems rely on the fallacy that "the alternator is already turning and, therefore, you can draw as much power as you want for 'free'". This is incorrect since, in reality, the alternator's load on the engine increases as it provides more current.

 

Here's some "back of the envelope calculations" to prove my point. I saw on one of these websites that the electrolysis system draws 10A. At 14V, that's 140W of power. There are 746W in a HP, so that's a 0.19hp draw on the engine. At best, the burned hydrogen would increase your engine's horsepower by 0.19hp (of course, this isn't true since you're not extracting energy out of the oxygen, but we'll keep this simple). Alas, we're still energy negative because alternators are not 100% efficient. Let's assume 65% efficiency in the alternator. That means that your engine had to expend about 0.30hp (223W) to get that 0.19hp (140W). My point is that even if 100% of the energy expended to extract the hydrogen is usable (which it isn't; remember Brown's gas is HHO: combustion doesn't release energy in the oxygen part), you're still energy negative.

 

This topic has been quite popular lately. On a local radio show just this morning, Homer Hickam was a guest; a caller asked him about these automotive electrolysis hydrogen systems. He confirmed what most of us on this forum believe: these systems don't work and the claims are bogus.

 

Homer Hickam was a NASA engineer, inspiration for the movie October Sky, and a really good guy:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Hickam

[mwiener2]

you forgot that the combustion of the hydrogen is not turned into 100% energy becasue a piston combustion engine is not more than 45% efficient

[AKLGT]

I was at my deliership on saturday and was asking our master tech, service manager, former subaru master tech/service manager now sales manager. All want to be updated with what you find AKLGT. They could even become a dealer if it works well enough and feel it wouldn't do too much to cause trouble.

I will keep everyone updated with the progress. For now, I'm just getting my base mileage reports and logs so I can compare for later. I've been talking to alot of people regarding these types of systems and of course you get the usual "it works!" or "it's all snake oil!" so, hopefully after a couple weeks time, we'll know if it does or doesn't work. and if it does work, how well. Again, this test will determine if the GMS Hydro 4000 unit in particular works, not ALL HHO type systems. Obviously, I cannot attest to the accuracy of other systems since they will not be what is being tested.

 

All in all, I would like to see a min of a 5 mpg gain (city). Hwy mileage isn't going to be a big deal to me since the stock LGT seems to get decent fuel economy at a constant speed and out of boost, however it's the daily driving in and out of stop and go traffic that sucks up the gas. This is where I want to see an improvement. And really my first tank on a more agressive driving style is still pretty tame to how I used to drive (I had to force myself the past week to get on the throttle). Unless I'm at the track, I'm off the gas as much as possible.... $4.59/Gal for 90 oct today... so purposely eating up my fuel sucks.

[caramall2]

TESTING

 

I don't think you'll get very acurate data driving around town and such a test wouldn't hold water for me (no pun intended). You need to do controlled tests. E.g. With similar weather conditions, speed, and same route, drive on the highway 200 miles with it, then 200 miles without it and check fuel mileage for each (both on the dash readout and by fill up).

 

Driving around town there are tons of variables...how long did you idle, how much gas did you give it, etc.

 

 

SCIENCE

 

I'm fairly skeptical myself, but let’s layout some facts.

 

Cars can run on hydrogen. BMW has made one, Mazda, etc. (I’m talking combusting hydrogen, not fuel cell.) I've seen guys on TV specials run a car by venting in hydrogen from a big 55 gallon drum undergoing a chemical reaction (...a bit differnent than a little jar, just don't see the set up giving off enough to do anything). So, in theory, hydrogen could replace or augment gasoline. (For some interesting info on basics of efficiency and running combustion engines on hydrogen, see “Hydrogen Fuel - Engine Fundamentals #1”, 2, 3, etc. on YouTube….long but VERY interesting.)

 

Interestingly, from what I understand, producing hydrogen through electrolysis is basically the exact opposite of a fuel cell, which uses hydrogen to make electricity.

 

Laws of Thermodynamics

 

System is not closed…You're adding gasoline (a stored energy source), water (if you were making hydrogen), air from the atmosphere…and you keep adding it. In addition, for the electrolysis, you're adding plates (material). (A decent article is at: http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~hypaul/Water%20as%20a%20fuel.htm)

 

Efficiency is the question here: In theory, is it more energy efficient to run a car on gasoline, or use the gasoline (or at least part of it) to produce hydrogen (via electrolysis), then run a car on the hydrogen (via combustion) or a mix of gasoline and hydrogen?

 

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS

 

If hydrogen really helps an engine run more efficiently, even if added in small quantities, there are other options like:

 

a) charging a separate battery at home using “cheap” electricity (rather than gasoline), then using that to power your “hydrogen cell” in your car (have doubts enough would be produced to do anything),

 

b) installing a hydrogen tank and either buying the hydrogen, or making it (electricity, chem reaction, etc.) and injecting it.

 

I think at some point the engine would have to be modded to run on increasing levels of hydrogen (change timing (hydrogen burns faster (10x propagation…allows later timing)), oxy sensor issues, etc.).

 

I think electric cars (once we have better batteries, capacitors, etc.) will hold more promise in the near term. In the big picture, of course, you still need to make the electricity (it's not free...but we could use sources like nuclear) and make the batteries for that matter (a lot of people overlook this…lots of energy, chemicals, etc., to do this). Range is the big problem with electric cars.

 

Fuel cell technology is still a ways off and you have the whole issue of getting and storing the hydrogen (see Georgia Institute of Tech video at HowStuffWorks).

[LegGTLT]

Oh please edit your post, pretty please! You got some crazy font action happening and it's impossible to read.

[AKLGT]

can you clean that up a little better? it's very difficult to read

 

as for trying to test in controlled settings, that is almost impossible. I do plan to drive the same route on the hwy, same style as described in my other thread. that's about 160 miles each way. Around town, is pretty tough to say because sometimes it's busier than others days.

 

The only real way to have a controlled setting is to have a closed course and set the car on cruise at various speeds or have a set number of stops.

 

Also, there is an electric car up here, an old Ford Pinto that is completely run off batteries. It's not a road car, but a track car and the thing is freaking fast! Ran a 12.85 sec 1320 the last time I was at the track. it's pretty cool.

[caramall2]

Done...sorry for the crazy font mix up.

[tmillard]

I understand the call for controlled testing and baselining of the car but I don't think it will matters too much in this case.

The reason I am saying this is that if her mileage goes from 20 to 40 after installing the thing I'll be convinced. I think at this point we just want to see if it works and or not. A substantial increase in milage is basically what we are looking for. If the thing works (and does what it claims) it should be pretty evident from the large jump in mileage.

If she is able to wring 2 mpg out of it after the installation then it would make sense to have a more controlled environment.

 

My $0.02 on the controlled testing.

[AKLGT]

I have moved my other thread to the moderator's forum for now. I will keep the link in my signature to direct to my other thread on my local AKIC NASIOC chapter.

 

Again, there is no way to have a controlled testing in the "real world" because you cannot predict other cars or what other vehicles will be doing. All I can do is log with as much description as possible, where I drove to, how I did, how much throttle, etc. I drive about 20-100 miles on any given day, so it's pretty tough to have a "normal" routine. I can see from my previous tracking that around town, I avg about 20 mpg and hwy if left on cruise control at 70 mph, about 24 - 27 mpg depending on how many hills and if I have to pass vehicles. This is Alaska, we have mountains. That changes a lot of things. We rarely find a good stretch of land that is flat or straight, the closest is the hwy out to the Peninsula (where I went last weekend).

 

I agree with tmillard. Obviously if there's a large improvement, then we know it works. However if it's a small improvement only, then further testing and trying to have it controlled as much as possible would be necessary. this is where it would be great to have an AWD dyno facility and just set the car on cruise control for x miles at y temp.

 

Also, according to the documentation with the kit, they state most gasoline engines require up to 30 days to see best results, however in rare cases results were seen immediately. They also state there is a break in period of 500 miles so I will have to watch the amperage and water levels to make sure everything is running right so the ECU can learn and adjust properly.

[bosco]

the bottom line is if you already know what the average mileage is on the car being tested and if it goes up then you know it's working. i also want to know about drivability issues, performance +/-, hot/cold start problems, maintenance of system, emissions, etc. thanks bosco

[rc0032]

I have moved my other thread to the moderator's forum for now.

Ya! keep abusing those powers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:nickeyes:

:coxxseyes:

[LegGTLT]

:eekeyes:

 

[schwinn]

It's funny - my mother recently asked me to try this on her car, but I declined. As an engineer, I can see that this is simply a violation of the physics law of conservation of energy. Even the explanation above that it may be more "energy efficient" to run on Hydrogen instead of gasoline is flawed, assuming that (as these systems seem to be) the hydrogen is created from the running engine (ie, alternator electricity).

 

Still, I'd love to see the results of your testing. If there is anything I can do to help validate the test methodology, I would be glad to help... although I am biased to expect this won't work, as an engineer, I can be very objective...

 

Just to clarify, the test is to see if using the Hydro 4000, which uses electrolysis to make hydrogen from water, and adding this hydrogen (and oxygen?) to the intake will improve fuel economy... correct? (Ie, there is no external source of power, electricity, or hydrogen, right?) Again, I believe this is not possible... but willing to help prove it right or wrong, in the interest of science!

 

[leggtnut]

schwinn,

Nice to have a voice from someone that can still be objective at the same time as believing it won't work.

 

From what i understand, the system connectes to the battery of the car so it uses alternator power. It uses something like 5-10 amps to generate the hydrogen and oxygen and then feeds both into the intake system (after the MAF and before throttle body).

[mwiener2]

Loss #1 =

5-10amps of electricity from the alternator, which cost the engine 0.0965 - 0.1931 Horsepower

 

Loss #2 =

"The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely. The efficiency is a measure of what fraction of electrical energy used is actually contained within the hydrogen. Some of the electrical energy is converted to heat, a useless by-product. Some reports quote efficiencies between 50% and 70%"

 

So that's 122.8 - 147.3 BTu's of wasted heat.

 

 

where's the gain?

[LittleBlueGT]

Loss #1 =

5-10amps of electricity from the alternator, which cost the engine 0.0965 - 0.1931 Horsepower

 

Loss #2 =

"The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely. The efficiency is a measure of what fraction of electrical energy used is actually contained within the hydrogen. Some of the electrical energy is converted to heat, a useless by-product. Some reports quote efficiencies between 50% and 70%"

 

So that's 122.8 - 147.3 BTu's of wasted heat.

 

 

where's the gain?

 

 

Logic doesn't work with everyone.

 

I would give up if I were you.

[AKLGT]

It's funny - my mother recently asked me to try this on her car, but I declined. As an engineer, I can see that this is simply a violation of the physics law of conservation of energy. Even the explanation above that it may be more "energy efficient" to run on Hydrogen instead of gasoline is flawed, assuming that (as these systems seem to be) the hydrogen is created from the running engine (ie, alternator electricity).

 

Still, I'd love to see the results of your testing. If there is anything I can do to help validate the test methodology, I would be glad to help... although I am biased to expect this won't work, as an engineer, I can be very objective...

 

Just to clarify, the test is to see if using the Hydro 4000, which uses electrolysis to make hydrogen from water, and adding this hydrogen (and oxygen?) to the intake will improve fuel economy... correct? (Ie, there is no external source of power, electricity, or hydrogen, right?) Again, I believe this is not possible... but willing to help prove it right or wrong, in the interest of science!

 

Schwinn, thank you for your interest.

 

I have been sick the past few days and didn't help staying up til 5am Saturday morning working on this install and documenting everything as we did. My techs who worked on installing the Hydro 4000 have already built 2 of their own similar units and installed on one of their personal vehicles, seeing an avg of 7 mpg gain (V8 Chevy truck) over the past week.

 

I ran into a problem on Saturday with the air filter filling up with water. I have been on the phone with the local guy discussing why or what this air intake is for since no other system I've seen has one. Plus, we are worried that with this air intake drawing in unmetered air, even though it is connected to the Hydro 4000 unit (ie fancy name for a Hydrogen generator), the Hydrogen gas passing into the car's intake system AFTER the MAF and not before. This may work fine for NA cars or even Turbo Diesel's, however we are not sure if it's such a good idea on our Subaru Boxer 2.5L Turbo. After seeing the water in the air filter, I quickly disconnected the hose from the generator and plugged the hole in the intake until tomorrow when I can speak to the manuf in FL regarding this air filter. We are inclined to just not use it and plug up the hole instead.

 

Interesting to me, while we were installing the unit, I had to mount it in the trunk vs under the hood (the ideal location). We wanted to make sure we had enough vacuum from the intake all the way to the back of the car, so lit a flame next to the hose and watched it get sucked into the tube when he added throttle. nothing happened when there was no throttle, only when we added gas did it suck up the flame. So it seems this system will work much better for city driving than it would for cruising on the hwy.

 

Once I get all my unanswered questions satisfied tomorrow, I will do a write up on the installation process itself, issues we ran into and my thoughts on the whole thing. It was much more complicated than I thought, especially on the LGT/Turbo car. Hardware installation was a cinch, however all the wiring was a real PITA (and we still need to find a better power switch for the relay - not the oil pump).

[AKLGT]

Ya! keep abusing those powers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:nickeyes:

:coxxseyes:

if people weren't crying about it so much, than I would have left it where it was at. Instead I gave in and moved the thread for actual discussion. You can still find the same info elsewhere as I work on this project. I plan to continue this for the next month or so, and then look at testing my friend's system to see if the results are similar, better, or worse (IE, can you do the same thing without spending as much $$$).

[Jon in CT]

I ran into a problem on Saturday with the air filter filling up with water. I have been on the phone with the local guy discussing why or what this air intake is for since no other system I've seen has one. Plus, we are worried that with this air intake drawing in unmetered air, even though it is connected to the Hydro 4000 unit (ie fancy name for a Hydrogen generator), the Hydrogen gas passing into the car's intake system AFTER the MAF and not before. This may work fine for NA cars or even Turbo Diesel's, however we are not sure if it's such a good idea on our Subaru Boxer 2.5L Turbo. After seeing the water in the air filter, I quickly disconnected the hose from the generator and plugged the hole in the intake until tomorrow when I can speak to the manuf in FL regarding this air filter. We are inclined to just not use it and plug up the hole instead.

Yeah, I have no idea about why this contraption would require an air intake.

 

BTW, it looks like someone is finally doing a controlled test, according to http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=74b15465-2ebb-49e0-acb1-939c4bb13a28. The only problem is the very small sample size (one).

[DrCloud]

^ Yep, that's the local station here, and Professor Abtahi is one of our faculty members, in the Dept. of Mechanical Engineering.

 

This second test was initiated because the TV station's first test (which reported an astounding mileage increase) was quite obviously bogus. They put a Dodge Magnum, as I recall, on a dynomometer and got 9 mpg (and believed it), then installed the gadget and got a lot better result from the dyno, then went public with the result. Prof. Abtahi called them on it.

 

This particular station is extraordinarily gullible -- they reported on a (non-car-related) hydrolysis device a year back and how it was a Miracle, just a Miracle that it created all this hydrogen that could be used for all this stuff. They conveniently forgot to point out the 220V plug that the device had to have stuck in a wall before it would work. HPH

[s car go]

This particular station is extraordinarily gullible -- they reported on a (non-car-related) hydrolysis device a year back and how it was a Miracle, just a Miracle that it created all this hydrogen that could be used for all this stuff. They conveniently forgot to point out the 220V plug that the device had to have stuck in a wall before it would work. HPH

 

I was pretty happy with the story the local news station ran here on this issue:

 

http://www.kptv.com/video/16841657/index.html

[DrCloud]

^And that's a Fox News station, yet! WPTV (W. Palm Beach) is NBC! HPH

[tmillard]

I like the toothless woman with her words of wisdom: "most water is free"

 

Robert Shields seems like a real ethical guy too. If it doesn't work he will say "sorry" and move on. Hey you know.... that is how R and D works!

[mwiener2]

$1100 + $500-600 for installation for something that has about $30-50 worth of hardware store parts and it doesn't even work.

 

 

Awesome