h2o hybrid

[SneakyFast]

+ a gazillion.

 

Um... the concept of "a gazillion" is scientifically impossible!!! I have proof!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bosco]

gazillion |gəˈzilyən| (also kazillion)

cardinal number informal

a very large number or quantity (used jocularly or for emphasis) : I'd like to sell gazillions of books.

ORIGIN late 20th cent.: fanciful formation on the pattern of billion and million.

[SneakyFast]

:damnyoubosco:

[DrCloud]

...but I'm gonna at least give AK the chance to test it out.

 

Last I saw, she abandoned the effort in her LGT because there was some problem with the turbo. She suggested it might work in a NA car.

 

Has this changed? HPH

[s car go]

:lol:@ this thread

 

all the arguing is pointless. I have my opinion which I stated earlier but I'm gonna at least give AK the chance to test it out. Then & only then after the results are in can anyone really make a comment on it. Otherwise it's like arguing over which team will win a ball game only talking as if one of the 2 is DEFINITELY going to win.

 

For your analogy to work, the team that people are saying is DEFINITELY going to win would have be playing against a team that consists of a bunch of people who have never played the game before, but claim that they have found a way to violate certain laws of physics to win. Oh, and they won't actually play the game to show that they can win; you're going to have to pony up the $1200 the entry fee to play instead and prove their claim for them.

[mwiener2]

It turns out that there's a (small) body of technical literature about gasoline-hydrogen mixtures used in internal combustion engines, most of which literature is associated with emissions control. (Diesel/hydrogen combinations also have been studied for the same purpose.)

 

 

how much you wanna bet they used stored Hydrogen and not generating it on board....

 

 

 

"Aurora mechanic Greg Swiston, who owns Greg's My Mechanic on New York Street, said he hasn't seen any customers who have purchased these touted fuel-saving gadgets, but added with a laugh, 'Only really stupid people would do that.'"

 

That about sums it up right there.

 

 

 

I'm sorry. What I meant to imply was your understanding and the understanding of other individuals in an automotive forum is limited. If my assumption is incorrect, please inform me where you received your PhD in chemical engineering, and what laboratory you have been studying the affects of these reactions under different conditions.

 

All you need is High School Physics to know this WON'T work.

[LittleBlueGT]

how much you wanna bet they used stored Hydrogen and not generating it on board....

 

 

 

"Aurora mechanic Greg Swiston, who owns Greg's My Mechanic on New York Street, said he hasn't seen any customers who have purchased these touted fuel-saving gadgets, but added with a laugh, 'Only really stupid people would do that.'"

 

That about sums it up right there.

 

 

 

 

 

All you need is High School Physics to know this WON'T work.

 

Still not giving up eh?

[rc0032]

Still not giving up eh?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

 

 

 

 

oh shit thats a good one :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[DrCloud]

how much you wanna bet they used stored Hydrogen and not generating it on board....

 

That's not really relevant to what I was talking about generally, but it becomes relevant for the case of these hydrolysis gadgets, for sure.

 

The question, then, is whether the gadgets can put out H2 fast enough to make that 1% H2 to air mixture to keep up with the burn rate of the gasoline ( ... and, of course, whether whatever combustion improvements there are provide the extra power to generate the electricity for the hydrolysis plus have some left over for improved mpg or performance).

 

Now, keep in mind that this isn't directly related to the first (or second) law of thermodynamics any more, because it has to do with combustion efficiency and not energy directly. In other words, the H2 acts as a sort of catalyst to make the gasoline combustion work better, and it could improve the overall efficiency of the system.

 

I'm not, mind you, persuaded by any means, but the potential mechanism at least has a basis in chemistry and physics now. What surprises me is the relatively small amount of technical literature on the topic -- this suggests that the concept has sufficient limitations that these gadgets are marketing ploys rather than actual improvements to the car. HPH

[s car go]

What surprises me is the relatively small amount of technical literature on the topic -- this suggests that the concept has sufficient limitations that these gadgets are marketing ploys rather than actual improvements to the car. HPH

 

 

You're conveniently forgetting the more logical answer here: the evil oil cartel.

 

You must be one of them.

[coxx]

Last I saw, she abandoned the effort in her LGT because there was some problem with the turbo. She suggested it might work in a NA car.

 

Has this changed? HPH

so is it ok for me to say "I f-ing told you so! There's absolutely no way this would work or someone like me would patent it & make a 'gazillion' dollars on it" yet or are we still gonna debate this?

[LegGTLT]

Anthony still in here? This thread fails.

[mwiener2]

That's not really relevant to what I was talking about generally...

 

 

yes it is, becasue any gains you get in better cumbustion are trashed when the energy is used right back up to make the H in the first place.

 

If 1% H really made that much of a difference, we'd all have 4500psi paintball tanks of H in the car.

[DrCloud]

You must be one of them.

 

I wish. Given the profits they've been bringing in lately, do you really think I'd be posting to forum like this if I were? Or driving a Subaru?

 

yes it is, becasue any gains...

 

Exactly the right perspective. While the mechanism is finally on the table (or at least it seems so, via that literature), the quantitative results are still mysterious. I'm sure, though, that those results are trade secrets carefully kept secret by the Hydro 4000 people and their ilk, in some secret place. Stuffed down their pants, maybe. HPH

[LegGTLT]

Oh they got something stuffed somewhere alright when they can't even show proof to a news station that's GIVING them FREE publicity to show off their product.

[coxx]

 

You're conveniently forgetting the more logical answer here: the evil oil cartel.

 

You must be one of them.

it doesn't work that way. & exxon/mobil, bp, shell, & all of them used to make more money when gas was $3/gallon than they do now.

[DukeTrout]

I'm sorry. What I meant to imply was your understanding and the understanding of other individuals in an automotive forum is limited. If my assumption is incorrect, please inform me where you received your PhD in chemical engineering, and what laboratory you have been studying the affects of these reactions under different conditions.

 

For the record I'm not saying (and have never said) that I think it will work, but sitting here arguing about it like we are a bunch of experts is an exercise in futility.

 

It doesn't take a PhD. I'm a practicing biomedical engineer. I learned this $hit as a freshman. Moreover, it forms the basis for even more widely applied fundamental principles, not the least of which is PV=nRT, the fundamental reason why turbo engines work.

 

If you care about what makes your car different than others, you should do some research on the topic of thermodynamics, and it will become immediately apparent why those of us who object to this idea of "free energy through hydrolysis of water" are so vehement that it can't work that way.

[tmillard]

This is off topic in a way but I need to vent it out a little bit:

 

WTF!!! The SEC is stepping into supposedly 'free markets' and restricting short sellers. While I understand the reasoning behind it.... It is very un-American.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121614248005255151.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news

 

If they are going to restrict anything why the Fu*k have they not put a restriction on energy speculators? I know that the speculators are not the only reason for the rise but they support the price. If the feds came in and said "no more buying on energy futures on spec... you can only buy to hedge for your business (airlines, trucking companies, heating oil etc)" The price of oil would collapse.

 

Why the Fu*k are they stepping in on some other BS, but not in on one of the systemic reasons that the banks are in rough shape (rising energy prices lead to less consumer spending which leads to lower profits to lower stock valuations....)

[bosco]

This is off topic in a way but I need to vent it out a little bit:

 

WTF!!! The SEC is stepping into supposedly 'free markets' and restricting short sellers. While I understand the reasoning behind it.... It is very un-American.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121614248005255151.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news

 

If they are going to restrict anything why the Fu*k have they not put a restriction on energy speculators? I know that the speculators are not the only reason for the rise but they support the price. If the feds came in and said "no more buying on energy futures on spec... you can only buy to hedge for your business (airlines, trucking companies, heating oil etc)" The price of oil would collapse.

 

Why the Fu*k are they stepping in on some other BS, but not in on one of the systemic reasons that the banks are in rough shape (rising energy prices lead to less consumer spending which leads to lower profits to lower stock valuations....)

 

you need to join the Political Arena

 

if you want to join the Political Forum go into your User CP, then click on Group Memberships, and click on join Political forum. just to let you know the PA is a little more wide open than the general forums but the rules regarding threats, racism, swearing still stand. hope to see you there. bosco

[s car go]

it doesn't work that way. & exxon/mobil, bp, shell, & all of them used to make more money when gas was $3/gallon than they do now.

 

Before anybody else takes my post seriously, I should say I was being sarcastic.

[coxx]

Before anybody else takes my post seriously, I should say I was being sarcastic.

ahhh ok gotcha :lol:

[coxx]

If the feds came in and said "no more buying on energy futures on spec... you can only buy to hedge for your business (airlines, trucking companies, heating oil etc)" The price of oil would collapse.

they're not that big a part of the market. Check it out on the CFTC website http://www.cftc.gov/dea/futures/deanymesf.htm scroll down to crude oil.

 

Non-commercial refers to large specs & non-reportable are the small specs. The Commercial category is BP, Exxon, etc.

 

Non-commericals (large specs) are long 209,761 contracts & short 202,695 leaving them net long 7,066 contracts which is nowhere near alot.

 

Non-reportables (small specs) are short -6,763 contracts

 

So it's not what people would have you believe.

 

That's all I'm gonna say on this though since bosco is right & it doesn't belong in this thread. I just wanted to show you.

[AKLGT]

so is it ok for me to say "I f-ing told you so! There's absolutely no way this would work or someone like me would patent it & make a 'gazillion' dollars on it" yet or are we still gonna debate this?

uh no, I have not even come close to abandoning anything other than working 7 days a week between my two stores and trying to find the time to do the install and work out the issues that popped up on FRIDAY NIGHT AND SATURDAY MORNING! I had to wait until Monday when they opened (yesterday). Give it a rest people! I can't post on these forums every freaking moment, because if I were, I'd obviously not be out in the field where this system could be tested. If all I did was be on here arguing over will it or won't it work, then we know any data given would be false.

 

better yet, because up here, we must be more open minded in trying new things, even those who told me it was "snake oil" are interested in getting good reliable data for comparison. One such company works in aftermarket car parts and will be installing a "car chip" so we can record avg RPM, avg speed, etc. The point of this whole thing is to also have the most accurate information vs just what "my buddy told me...."

 

I have driven approx 40 miles with this system "on" and so far, I honestly cannot tell if it's on or not. The ammeter provided sucks big time so you can hardly tell if you are within the recommended voltage (5-8 amps) on a 0-60 ammeter. The air filter is a joke and frankly, we still can't figure out why we even need it. I will say that over this weekend, we installed our own versions of this same system on an 04 Chevy 1500 4.8L and a 98 Forester. Both seem to be getting pretty good numbers, about 5-7 mpg better. The Chevy got 20.85 mpg on a 150 mile trip w/ avg speeds of 70-80 mph. He claims to usually get about 14 mpg (however that cannot be confirmed). So far, I'm the only one actually taking detailed notes and data so we can have some real numbers to compare.

[AKLGT]

I'm actually pretty curious to hear how the test comes out, but I can definitely say that the way that these companies SAY that the device works is unequivocally wrong. That is based on the laws of thermodynamics which have been well understood for a couple of centuries. We're not talking about String Theory here. Guys in castles were burning things and writing these fundamental understandings of how the universe works.

 

If 400 years of data ain't enough, I'm not sure this test is going to help you.

i agree. I don't believe these systems work in the way they claim at all. This was apparent to me when I called about this "filter" and given a few various answers. It's not even an air filter! it's a WATER FILTER!!!!

 

They also instruct us to run the hose into the intake AFTER the MAF which I don't really believe it to be all that safe for our 2.5L turbo boxer engine. I'm going to go ahead and run this for 2 weeks as they are instructing (don't really believe it will do tons of anything, this filter seems pointless) and then we will modify it as to the way we believe it to work better and compare notes. No filter, tap off that hose and move the hose to the intake BEFORE the MAF instead of after. Then we're going to use open ECU to watch for AFR and make any necessary adjustments.

[erikvcl]

...own versions of this same system on an 04 Chevy 1500 4.8L and a 98 Forester. Both seem to be getting pretty good numbers, about 5-7 mpg better. The Chevy got 20.85 mpg on a 150 mile trip w/ avg speeds of 70-80 mph. He claims to usually get about 14 mpg (however that cannot be confirmed).

 

The MPG rating for the 4.8l in a Chevy Silverado (2wd, automatic) is 19mpg highway. To get 20mpg on a trip stock (i.e. without the HHO system) sounds very reasonable. Your friend may get 14mpg regularly, but I suspect he's comparing apples to oranges...