tmillard Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 Back to the poll- isn't 'fiction' and 'nonsense' the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 If somebody told you that 2+2=5, would you go out and buy a bunch of apples, put two on the table, then another two, then count how many you had? Or would you just refer to what you learned in elementary school and tell the person they're mistaken? This is kind of the same thing, except the reasoning for which the water4gas deal won't work requires that you know a little about science. I completely understand if the laws of thermodynamics doesn't mean anything to a lot of people here, but at least read through this page before wasting your money: http://web.archive.org/web/20070621083327/http://anti-rant.blogspot.com/2006/05/simple-truth-about-hho-and-water.html He does a really good job of breaking this down into layman's terms. whatever buddy. I can be skeptical even if I still think/hope something may work. I'm not going to say IT FOR CERTAIN works until I can verify that it does in fact work. However, I can BELIEVE that it may work and still be skeptical as well as being realistic. You must be one of those no faith kind of people unless you can see it with your own eyes. You, however, have made up your mind that it CANNOT work, and even if evidence produces good results, I'm sure you will find a way to disprove it or rationalize it away. Frankly, your OPINION does not matter in this case. What does matter is what really happens once real numbers and real results are in. Also, I suggest you do a little research on this particular unit we are looking to install: GMS Hydro-4000. The information regarding how this set up is run and performs makes just as much sense (in laymen's terms too). Actually did major in Chemistry in college, even if I didn't finish. Amazingly enough, I'm not a complete retard. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 burden of proof is on you guys to prove it DOES work. The rest of us aren't taking something that's almost proven 100% effective & saying its a scam. We're taking something with no hard evidence that it works & saying "show us". & "my friend uses it" is not good enough b/c people will also tell you Criss Angel levitates in the air b/c they saw it in a vegas show no, the difference between saying prove it and I don't believe it, is that you are saying that IT DOES NOT and CANNOT, WILL NOT, etc work. You have made up your mind and nothing will ever disprove it. Nothing wrong with being skeptical about something or even NOT believing it can work, however, in my life, I have found that there are many things that do work for some reason I do not understand or can understand, not even science can explain it away. It's called FAITH. I have faith in my friend that she would not feed me a pile of BS when she is not going to make any money from this deal and stands to lose a lot if it does fail. Not only will she stand to lose my respect for her and her business, but could strain our 16 yrs of friendship, lose respect in our community, because I will also be doing this experiment to show our local very active NASIOC chapter, AKIC if/how this works. That's a potential for a lot of BAD publicity if it does fail and doesn't work. It's not just a few people on the interwebs they will never meet or ever come in contact. No, we're talking over 150 people who are actively on our local boards, not counting the other 200+ or so that don't post. This is a small town and everyone knows everyone or someone who knows the person you're talking about. It's how it goes here, so word of mouth is the most important form of advertisement. I built my business off of networking and word of mouth referrals. If this doesn't work, there is a lot to lose for her and her business, so please keep an open mind and keep your snide smart ass comments to a minimum. Thank you. Once I can get the LGT up and running (praying it is today because I need it driveable for tomorrow) I will be making a new thread. It will be closed and free from all the normal Pnut Gallery BS and OT chatter. It's purpose will be solely to give you the information as I see it coming in, mileage logs, fuel fill ups, receipts, etc. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 bottom line is we can beat this horse forever with rhetoric from both sides of the coin but it wont make a difference till someone posts actual evidence wtf do you think I'm working on trying to do? Even if someone else posts their "evidence", I'm sure you guys will all discredit it and claim it's fraudulent. This way, there is real evidence and real information. I'm not going to lie about it. If it's a hoax and a bunch of BS, you will see my rant of spending $1200+ on it to not work. If it does, than well.... I just hope it does. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 Cliff notes: "Can't" was killed in the battle of "Try" SBT Well, perhaps my parents taught me that if I wanted to see results, to do something about it. Besides, I'm curious as hell to prove/disprove this technology. I'm a gadget geek through and through, so this is just a cool toy (imo) that may actually work and get better fuel economy. If it does, than I'll probably install it on the STI since I'll be selling the LGT. We're car people, so we're used to the additional steps in making sure our turbo cars are performing well. I spent 3 yrs adding Torco to every gas fill up on the LGT, so adding some distilled water to a tank every 2-3 weeks shouldn't be a big deal. And I won't be using Torco this go around since I won't need it. The LGT will be completely stock. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegGTLT Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 When you start the new thread, keep it locked. Then update as needed and open it when results come in. Please PM joeleodee For All Site Questions. He is the acting Admin and can resolve anything related to LegacyGT.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeTrout Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 AKLGT - I think what folks are saying, and I very much agree with them, is that this system cannot work THE WAY IT IS DESCRIBED as working. Thermodynamically, it is a losing battle. (I do admire that you are willing to test it in real life. I'm even interested in the result.) In fact, sytems that have been PROVEN TO WORK, and ARE CURRENTLY IN DEVELOPMENT use the very opposite of this principle. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles take compressed hydrogen, recombine it with ambient oxygen to form water, extracting electrical energy in the process. They are electrical vehicles fueled by hydrogen, without combusting the hydrogen. Going the other direction, from water to hydrogen and oxygen, costs energy. The system described uses water for "fuel." This simply does not work. That's not to say that the system doesn't improve efficiency. One possibility is that it is simply a chemical method of applying the principle of hybrid vehicles. What is the fuel for a Prius? It's 100% gasoline. What a hybrid does, though, is take "wasted" kinetic energy during coasting and braking and temporarily store it as electrical potential energy in a battery. It is possible that this system uses the alternator during low load periods (essentially an inefficient way to harvest kinetic energy of the engine) to generate hydrogen through electrolysis of water, and store it for use as fuel during high load periods. BMW has shown that gasoline engines can use hydrogen as a fuel with little modification. If it is done very well, hypothetically some efficiency gains could be made. But please keep in mind that at no point is water being used as a fuel. It is possible that it is being used to temporarily store energy harvested from "wasted" kinetic energy, much like a flywheel or battery. What I have a hard time believing is that production on a hobbyist level can generate a system like this that can yield more than 5% efficiency gains. To sum it up, I could see a possibility for how this could be used to yield an efficiency gain, but most certainly, not the way it is described. As s car go so eloquently said, the way these systems are described by the "inventors" is tantamount to saying you can fly by pulling really hard on your own shoelaces. Ich bin echt viel netter, wenn ich nuechtern bin. Echt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 When you start the new thread, keep it locked. Then update as needed and open it when results come in. that's exactly what I intend on doing. This way, it keeps the previous 4 pages of BS out and we can look at actual data and info. Duke, I agree. I believe perhaps these systems under development will work, but perhaps not quite in the way they claim. However, I am more interested in the end result, not necessarily to prove that water into fuel is why or the how. What really matters is does it work. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegGTLT Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 Well, we could also read about someone who already did it. As previously posted, this guy wrote a blog about it. Excerpt to maybe compare with and try when you do your test AKLGT: "Another problem with the water for gas system is that it produces the same amount of hydrogen at idle, as it does at highway speeds. This is why the system includes an on off toggle switch. If you are driving down the highway, you can leave the switch in the on position and the system will operate very efficiently. If you get stuck in traffic your engine will be idling and hydrogen gas will be produced at the same rate as if you were traveling at highway speeds. This will cause the engine to run rich, idle poorly and eventually stall, If the system is left on while idling too long. So basically, you are supposed to reach over and turn off the system, if you are stuck in a traffic jam our plan on idling for more than a minute." Make sure you idle for some time when using it. I know you have a different system but this would be interesting to see what it does when idling. Please PM joeleodee For All Site Questions. He is the acting Admin and can resolve anything related to LegacyGT.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 when you pay and get the "real" install instructions, don't forget to tell us about the part where they have you wire in a small box to the MAF or O2 sensor. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobE Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 i voted for nonsense... but just because its spelled wrong. http://newenglandsubarus.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 I forsee Honda HP levels in the near future..... My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtmenace Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 bottom line is we can beat this horse forever with rhetoric from both sides of the coin but it wont make a difference till someone posts actual evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 exactly! I already said I'd stay out of it till the evidence was posted. I planned on keeping quiet until Ms Mod decided to attack my integrity & character. My apologies. It seems you were not the closed minded one, it was someone else. Regardless, I will be posting my results to this experiment in another thread located in the news and rumors section. i figure this is kinda news and definitely RUMORS category, afterall, it is an experiment. LGT is up and running, so I will commence the start of this experiment! Let's see what the REAL numbers say! (And this better work, because it's gonna suck if it doesn't and I'll be about $1800 poorer!) Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Well, we could also read about someone who already did it. As previously posted, this guy wrote a blog about it. Excerpt to maybe compare with and try when you do your test AKLGT: "Another problem with the water for gas system is that it produces the same amount of hydrogen at idle, as it does at highway speeds. This is why the system includes an on off toggle switch. If you are driving down the highway, you can leave the switch in the on position and the system will operate very efficiently. If you get stuck in traffic your engine will be idling and hydrogen gas will be produced at the same rate as if you were traveling at highway speeds. This will cause the engine to run rich, idle poorly and eventually stall, If the system is left on while idling too long. So basically, you are supposed to reach over and turn off the system, if you are stuck in a traffic jam our plan on idling for more than a minute." Make sure you idle for some time when using it. I know you have a different system but this would be interesting to see what it does when idling. Very good point! I know it comes with an on and off switch, so we shall see once it's installed. First, I need to run some base line mileage logs for comparison. I'm hoping to run 2-3 tanks of in-town city driving only and 2 tanks or so of hwy driving. This way we can compare how this system works for city stop and go driving as well as commuting or hwy driving, what differences between the driving. I also plan to run a tank or two of just moderate driving habits vs heavy throttle/on the gas driving. The way I see it, I want to know every aspect of this system and if it works and for what type of driving/driver. I am not a commuter; I am a city driver mostly, driving all over town every day. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtmenace Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 ....Seems like I'm the only one here wanting to get some real results versus arguing over unknown facts and information. ok, gonna have to disagree w/ this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03LegacyWgn Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 well since everyone is asking for proof that it DOES work, why doesnt someone post proof that it DOESNT work, other than saying its against the laws of science/physics and all that jazz. pleaseandthankyou.. 03 BH Mods: Group A Alt & Crank Pullys and end links, CIA, JDM L7 Grille, JDM HID lights, JDM rear tails Stromung CBE, KYB GR2's W/ H&R springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 OK, let the real world testing begin! http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90769 and I'm still waiting for the local dealer to get me some info. However, to be honest, I'd rather get my own than what works on his Ford F250. I have a feeling that just because it works well on one vehicle, may not be the same for all vehicles. I have also listed this experiment on my local AKIC boards on NASIOC. They of course, are a bit more supportive (though there are still skeptics, which is fine... that's why we're doing this experiment to begin with). I know I have talked to many of the techs and employees at the dealership who do believe this will work, however may not in the way the manufacturer claims. I am still not quite buying the water turns to fuel bit, however perhaps it helps it burn cleaner and more efficient and that's why people claim it to work. I don't know, guess we'll see in a few weeks. I was reading the instructions online and it does say we have to tap into the air box. I wonder how this would work if you had an intake?? those are all questions to be answered later though. If this does work, and work well enough, we will be installing it on all our vehicles as well as a few others who are holding out to see what happens with this experiment. Crossing my fingers now (yes, I know that's very scientific! ). Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03LegacyWgn Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 ^^ cant wait to see your results. 03 BH Mods: Group A Alt & Crank Pullys and end links, CIA, JDM L7 Grille, JDM HID lights, JDM rear tails Stromung CBE, KYB GR2's W/ H&R springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bosco Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Very good point! I know it comes with an on and off switch, so we shall see once it's installed. why do you have to shut the car off with a toggle switch when it's idling? you would sure think with all those patents someone would have designed it to shut itself off when required. Stay Stock Stay Happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtmenace Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 well since everyone is asking for proof that it DOES work, why doesnt someone post proof that it DOESNT work, other than saying its against the laws of science/physics and all that jazz. pleaseandthankyou.. pleaseandthankthis... why don't i prove to you why i can't flap my arms fast enough to get to the moon? fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 why do you have to shut the car off with a toggle switch when it's idling? you would sure think with all those patents someone would have designed it to shut itself off when required. well, supposedly the guy (partner) uses his in traffic and doesn't turn it on or off, that it works just fine. But we'll see. If the car dies at idle, then we know! the on/off switch (for me) would be to turn this off when I'm at the track! God, I cannot wait to explain what the hell it is when I go through tech... is that NOS? -no. Is that Alcohol injection/meth kit? - no. Well, wtf is it?? - it's my hydrogen fuel cell makesmegetbettermpg thing. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leggtnut Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 I read the install page as well and it sounds like the Idle issue might not be an issue with it's install. It installs between the throttle body and the MAF sensor. So I don't see why it would runn so ritch because the throttle body should take care of that. I would bet the other system was installed after the throttle body. So that you would get the same amount of hydrogen/oxgyen mixture. Ben (2014 Outback SAP w/ eyesite, 2014 Tribeca Limited, 2006 LGT limited sedan) Subaru Ambassador PNW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest heightsgtltd Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 pleaseandthankthis... why don't i prove to you why i can't flap my arms fast enough to get to the moon? fail. :lol::lol: I've see you try, but you only got as high as the telelphone wires This whole thread is an embarrassing fail and Hope, you got more support from Nasioc? Yeah they are really a warm brotherhood of supporting feelings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 :lol::lol: I've see you try, but you only got as high as the telelphone wires This whole thread is an embarrassing fail and Hope, you got more support from Nasioc? Yeah they are really a warm brotherhood of supporting feelings I said support from my LOCAL AKIC group. The ones who know me and see me on an almost daily basis. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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